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canonized

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ForzaA said:
Hmm.. I definately read it as "the lesser of two evils"(not following Gods direct command, or his more general command regarding killing)
but YMMV I guess.

Killing is not evil by itself . Self-defense , for example , is not evil . Killing , therefore , is not an absolute evil but murder is . Like I said , the author of Life has dominion over it and put the command in the context of a sacrifice . What are you willing to sacrifice in order for something greater . Suicide , for example , is an evil , but jumping on a grenade to save your fellows is not . The point of the Abrahamic sacrifice was to pre-figure Christ . It was to show that the ultimate and perfect love is sacrifice and God did it for us .
Abraham was stopped from doing it without dying in the process, you, in the hypothetical example, were not.. I say you're both equally guilty to murder (that is, not guilty to murder, only to the *intent*)
Again , it would go back to the distinction between murder and killing . In Abraham's case it wouldn't be . In the case of you going out giving yourself your own command to kill without justification , then bam , murder .

I suppose I shouldn't have brought up an example from the bible :/

but now that you bring up this, I really can't resist :eek:
..Do you think God is a murderer for *intending* to have Jesus die as a sacrifice for man's sin?
Again , look at the man who fell on the grenade to save his fellows . God allowed Jesus to make a sacrifice , not a suicide .
..And a distinction I believe doesn't exist.. You're NOT morally a murderer, you ARE despicable for intending a murder though. (if you were to save one person, would it be the murderer, or the one who never actually commited a murder, even if he tried)
For all we know, the intended victim got the chance to grab a weapon because the one intending murder had doubts at the last second, staying his hand for just long enough.
It's semantics . We're not talking about a subjective evaluation of the situation because this is not a courtroom example , it is an ethical one . That is to say that we can assign perfect variables : i.e. if someone was intending the murder , he was going to go through with it without some last minute doubt . Since this isn't a court room , we can set the stage for a moral judgment . In this case , he would morally be a murderer whether he had the power to do it or not because the intent and the attempt is enough .

However , it must be understood that assignment of terms is tenuous considering not just the language barrier but that we're basically talking of the same thing . The reason why it's so easy for a lot of people to shy away from the moral category is because we are thinking of the consequences . That is , we know that attempted murder is less punished than actual murder in our court systems . But does that negate the STATE of the person ? Because if the person who stabs a friend in the heart but the knife slips out of his hand at the last minute and all he does is strike his friend in the chest with his fist , if that knife had been there he would have indeed been a murderer in act . Thus , the state of the man is that of a murderer , whereas the physical conditions did not permit it so .
[/quote]

...Remind me who defined "sin of pride" :)

The Ultimate Reality . i.e. God . Since we know the Fall predates the creation of the institutional Church , pride was defined well before that . You cannot accuse the natural world of being university of cambridge-centric just because it so happens that cambridge comes out with a lot of scientific studies . the natural world and its science/order existed beforehand and thus learning institutions merely attempt to convey what reality is already there .
I don't know, maybe God PREFERS people who actually think for themselves what needs to happen, and then do some magic incantation intended to do exactly that.

Sr. José, admittedly, does not literally label magic as bad, and miracles as good, but the suggestion is certainly there (through the usage of some words qualifying or accompanying one or the other)

Of course God wants people to think for themselves , it's why we have Free Will . Let me put it in this example . If you were on a car trip with your friend . You know the road to the left will lead off a cliff and the road to the right will lead to the town you guys are going to . Your friend asks you for directions . You can exercise your free will and say 'go to the left' . However , it would have consequences that we bring unto ourselves . Thus , it is not that God doesn't want people to think for themselves , it's that He wants them to choose what is best .

(also, "grrr" for making me take up the discussion again :) )


I'm not forcing you to do anything... But I would say that calling him/her a she in the situation where you know Marcus doesn't appreciate being called she, you are pestering, in that it does her/him harm.

The other way round, calling Marcus a he, causes neither any harm.
(if it DOES do you harm to use 'he', Marcus is ofcourse also pestering you by putting you in the situation where you must chose)

If you were doing drugs and I told you "don't do drugs , ForzaA , it's bad for you" and you get annoyed with me , who would be right ? If you were a rapist and i jailed you and it annoyed and pestered you . Who would be right ?

Pleasing people should not be the basis of morality .

Incognitia said:
What price free will, when God has planned from the beginning of time which miracles will be required, when and where? That scale of knowledge covers every one of your thoughts, words and deeds from cradle to grave...and if every decision you will make is known in advance, every choice you are faced with gives you less actual choice than the famous "offer he can't refuse".
This is, I will admit, a broader issue I have with the Christian faith, in fact any system of thought attempting to reconcile omniscience with free will...and of course doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the story, given that he's a Catholic character giving an explanation from that perspective.
Still bothers me though.

This too I had trouble with when I was first learning about Christianity , but it is not that hard to reason one intuitively . Just because a being knows what we will choose does not mean that we are not free agents . Let me give you a bad analogy (b/c as they said in one of the Ecumenical councils , any analogy we make of the Divine is MORE false than it is True considering the nature of what we're trying to describe) .

You must realize that God exists outside of linear time . If you think of space as X and Y (we'll reduce space to 2 dimensions for the sake of argument) and time as Z , our universe (if -- let's also assume in a big bang/big crunch model for expediency) would look like a football . That is , the universe would start as a point , would slowly expand as Z goes from 0 to Omega time . It would slowly contract after its largest point and then collapse again at time Omega .

Human beings experience the universe one point at a time and we make decisions at each point in time . We also experience space in a limited capacity . Our actions help to CREATE the universe . Our free will actions shape the world around us and ourselves .

Now , God is outside of Time so he would be able to see the entirety of existence immediately and for eternity . God is not living life out one moment at a time . He lives in the Eternal Now . There is no past and present for him . It's as if (again , insufficient analogies coming) he can hold the entire universe like a football and be able to see every part of it because for him , all of time is already PRESENT to him .

Thus , God is present at every single point of existence and can see it . However , although he does give us grace to give us the ability to perform actions that we will , God's omniscience is NOT the cause of our actions . RATHER , our actions inform his omniscience . It's not that God "knows our future" as if he was standing in our present time right now . Rather , we have shown him our future by him being with us at every moment and forever . A bit hard to grasp at first so I'll also attach this stuff from wiki that talk about logic stuff:

wiki said:
One criticism of the Argument from Free Will is that point 4 of the proof it simply assumes that foreknowledge and free will are incompatible. It uses circular logic to "prove" this, by simply stating that "a being that knows its choices in advance has no potential to avoid its choices". Point 4 is therefore saying, in essence, "A being that knows its choices in advance has no free will, and therefore has no free will". By assuming what it is trying to prove, that point undermines the entire argument.

Specifically, point 4 commits the modal fallacy of assuming that because some choice is known to be true, it must be necessarily true (i.e. there is no way it could possibly be false).[10] This fallacy is most easily demonstrated by an example that has nothing to do with omniscience: While it is true that a person has one brother and one sister, it is not necessarily true. For example, it is possible that that person could have had two brothers, or two sisters, or no siblings at all. Logically, the truth value of some proposition can not be used to infer that the same proposition is necessarily true.

Using logical terminology and applying it to AFFW, there is a marked distinction between the statement “It is impossible (for God to know a future action to be true and for that action to not occur)” and the statement “If God knows that a future action is true, then it is impossible for that action to not occur.” While the two statements may seem to say the same thing, they are not logically equivalent. The second sentence is false because it commits the modal fallacy of saying that a certain action is impossible, instead of saying that the two propositions (God knows a future action to be true, and that action does not occur) are jointly impossible. Simply asserting that God knows a future action does not make it impossible for that action not to occur. The confusion comes in mistaking a semantic relation between two events for a causal relation between two events.

With these assumptions more explicitly stated, the proof becomes:

1. Assume that person X has free will (assumption).
2. By the definition of free will, at any point in time, X can choose to do any action A, where A belongs to A(T), the set of all actions that X is physically capable of at time T (definition of free will).
3. At time T, person X will choose to do action A (i.e. a person can not logically choose to do both A and not A) (Law of the Excluded Middle).
4. Assume that an omniscient God exists (assumption).
5. By the definition of omniscience, God knows everything that will happen at any point in time (definition of omniscience).
6. From 3. and 5., God knows that at time T, person X will choose to do action A (logical conclusion).
7. Therefore, person X must do action A at time T.

This claims to prove that at time T, person X is unable to do any action other than A. However, you could also remove steps 4–6, and arrive at the same conclusion. This is called logical determinism, and it suffers from the same modal fallacy as AFFW. If a certain proposition is true, that does not imply that the proposition is logically necessary. Once you remove the invalid assertion, then the argument for logical determinism is shown to be false. Similarly, when that same invalid assertion is removed from AFFW (“by the definitions of ‘knowledge’ and ‘choice’, if one knows for certain what choice one will make in the future, one will not be able to make the opposite choice”), the proof is shown to be false.[11]

Another common criticism of AFFW argues that the apparent contradiction arises from an attempt to attribute temporal attributes to an atemporal idea or being. In this view, God exists beyond the constraints of linear time, and the temporal terminology used by AFFW is meaningless when applied to him: God doesn't need to know any event "before" it happens but rather is capable of knowing/experiencing it "while" it happens, since God’s knowledge extends beyond linear time. In that case, God would appear (from a temporal perspective) to know an event before it happens, as stated in AFFW.

AFFW proponents respond that the above argument does not change the contradiction. They claim that omniscience by definition means that God has knowledge of all human events of all human times, even if God's own relationship to time is entirely different from ours.

A counter-argument to the above argument is that God’s knowledge is a result of the free-will agent's choice, not the cause of it, and therefore no contradiction exists (whether God is temporal or atemporal).

One could reply that cause and result are two ends of a relation, and we recognize which is which by their time order (or at least logical sequence, i.e. the prerequisites), since cause is what takes place earlier than the result. However, making this claim ignores the central concept behind omniscience, where the effect (knowledge of an action) specifically and deliberately precedes the cause (the action itself). It would be erroneous to ascribe normal, temporal cause-effect relationships to the case of omniscience.

Omniscience and Free Will are specifically things I will be addressing thematically in Timelines . And I think that it will be something both grand and fun to do . It's one of the reasons I don't mind talking about it because it is indeed a structural element that's weaved into the work for the reader to ascertain and so a question would be , what does Timelines tell you so far about the nature of free will and time etc .

VILenin: This is very true . Let's try to keep it less about random opinions on otherwise good topics and focus on those topics that are more pertinent to the text . I am more than willing to talk privately with anyone , though ^^
 

canonized

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Just a status report folks: Working on an update for tonight/tomorrow . Then we'll have Instrumentality next week so look forward to that ! I estimate that I'll update again before that time though .

I want to see though what you guys think if I updated less ? I like 2 updates a week + interview + bonuses every now and then but I'd like to see if you guys think I'm updating too little or too much ? I know especially now that the AAR has gotten long , it changes the dynamic a little .
 

ForzaA

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canonized said:
The Ultimate Reality . i.e. God . Since we know the Fall predates the creation of the institutional Church , pride was defined well before that . You cannot accuse the natural world of being university of cambridge-centric just because it so happens that cambridge comes out with a lot of scientific studies . the natural world and its science/order existed beforehand and thus learning institutions merely attempt to convey what reality is already there .
The church, though, does not (or hardly) accept anyone else from interpreting what God said..


If you were doing drugs and I told you "don't do drugs , ForzaA , it's bad for you" and you get annoyed with me , who would be right ?

If you were a rapist and i jailed you and it annoyed and pestered you . Who would be right ?
You REALLY manage to pick your examples, don't you ? :)

In the first case, so long as I'm not harming anyone else, the point where you start annoying me is the point where you should stop, IMO.

In the second case - As far as I know, rape has a victim, whereby the 'right not to be pestered' on that issue is lost..

Pleasing people should not be the basis of morality .
not *the* basis, perhaps, but the essence of morality is allowing people to live together. I happen to think that goes better if we don't constantly piss each other off.

-----

On the issue of updates... See what happens if there's a 'hiatus' in the updating :)
The more actual updates the better... But if you prefer 2/week, then 2/week it is.
 

unmerged(9310)

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WritAAR of the Week said:
I have to say that the AAR I have been reading the most by far in the past few months has to be timelines, by Canonized :D And I must naturally pass the helm onto him, as I truly believe he is not only an excellent writer but more than deserving of being called WritAAR of the Week :)

There once was a Prince like none else,
Who dwelled in the oh so noble Paradox House...

Through all his labours and pains
A great story unfolds of great men and their gains

And brightly burning such is this tale none can douse!

allbowjx0.jpg

All bow to the great AAR that is Timelines, and it's writer we all love so :)

If anyone deserves to be the next WritAAR of the week, it's you buddy :)
 

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Congratulations on the WoW award! Now that you're a three-time winner I expect you to produce updates three times as fast! :p
 

ForzaA

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hmm... Does that mean we should argue less about sideshows for a bit (until there's no direct link here anymore)? :)

congrats!
 

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Congrats on writAAR of the week, good job!

As for the God/Free will issue, I don't find the "God exists out of our time" agrument very convincing. I would say that God choose not to know our choices beforehand when He created our world. This isn't as much a limitation of God's almighty being, as it would be a rule He created Himself and could violate if He wished. Much like a constitution, the government could violate it by making laws that would go contrary to it, but they choose to not to do so. Just as the constitution exemple, ignoring it is possible but this would make the entire system superfluous and useless.

However, I think ForzaA is right and we should return to discussing the actual story, no matter how interesting this debate is.
 

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hmm, that makes both my favourite AARs having won AAR prizes recently, so, congrats canonized.


Also, more updates are always better for me, so you should merely pick what works best for you :)
 

canonized

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ForzaA said:
The church, though, does not (or hardly) accept anyone else from interpreting what God said..

Nor should it , just as if you were a devout secularist you wouldn't accept what i would say about what you were doing .

ForzaA said:
You REALLY manage to pick your examples, don't you ?

In the first case, so long as I'm not harming anyone else, the point where you start annoying me is the point where you should stop, IMO.

In the second case - As far as I know, rape has a victim, whereby the 'right not to be pestered' on that issue is lost..

In the other examples there can be 'victims' as well just different degrees of it . That's what I'm getting it , if you were someone who believed that someone else is doing a wrong , you would end up telling them they were . Let's pretend you believe that smoking indoors is wrong but I don't . Even though I don't you would still tell me not to smoke inside of your house . Each one of us uses moral language and uses moral judgments based on our beliefs . In that case , most people are similar in that default expression .

ForzaA said:
not *the* basis, perhaps, but the essence of morality is allowing people to live together. I happen to think that goes better if we don't constantly piss each other off.

The essence of morality is to do what's right . Socrates and Plato themselves even noted how the harmonization of society is only contingent on if it is the right thing . Secondly , you are making a judgment on what actions 'allow' people to live together . For example , one (hypothetically) might argue that banning alcohol smoking , etc will help people to live together better . However , you might argue against that (gosh and I love my scotch and cigars) .

jeffg006: Jeff Jeff Jeff ... if I could but reach out and give you a hug right now !! But just wait , I will make a proper acceptance speech later on today and make sure that my appreciation for this amazing honour is readily readable to all including you , my very good friend and reader !

comagoosie: thank you very much comagoosie ! And thank you always for your patronage and good fun !

VILenin: ROFL You are so bad ! But thank you ! And hey , just think , part of this award is yours too considering all the bonus material you've written ! So thank you so much Mr. Lenin ! I seriously can't wait till you're back 100% !!

ForzaA: Sideshows XD I wanted to thank you though and everyone else nonetheless for making that last chapter as intellectual and ponderous as the tone of it was supposed to be . It's really helped to flesh out certain ideas and to expose several thematic elements that I hope to introduce into Timelines . Including the mysterious connections between magic/miracle/science

Grubnessul: I respect your interpretation of that since I think that is a mainline Protestant view is it not ? Although in my Rationalist tradition of St. Thomas Aquinas , I do believe as he did that "Nothing that implies contradiction falls under the omnipotence of God" so I think that it is not in the 'breaking' of free will that the answer is in but in the root and fundamentals of the essences of free will etc .

Avernite: and I thank you so much for being an ardent fan , Avernite . And , naturally , if you have any suggestions on how I can make it more enjoyable for you please let me know . As you know , i've been trying to add more photos and pictures lately and I hope everyone has been enjoying those !

Update will be coming today come hell or high water ! St. Thomas Aquinas pray for us !
 

Avernite

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To be honest, the pictures in this last update were a bit too many, I think. Having one or so per update allows it to sink in better ;)
 

coz1

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grayghost said:
I agree. Even though I fell into participating, and the discussion has been quite civil, and for the most part, enjoyable, this needs to be set aside.

We are here to read and enjoy a story.
Grayghost speaks wise words here. Heed them, my friends. :)
 

canonized

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Avernite said:
To be honest, the pictures in this last update were a bit too many, I think. Having one or so per update allows it to sink in better ;)

Good advice ! It'll also save me the trouble of finding new pictures XD . Thanks !
 

canonized

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chapter95tile.gif


Chapter XCV: Timepiece​

5 April 1610

Madeleine could still hear the rush of footsteps and abrasive shouting muffled dully by the earthen wall. It had only been a few minutes since she was forced to seal herself Riku, Raul, and Willem inside of the labyrinth’s stifling bowels. The atmosphere was thick with the recent dust of the moving earth—she had just then learned how the mechanism worked for moving the wall away that she was investigating. It was right on time, however, since it was then that Willem and Riku had come down into the dig where Madeleine and Raul were working to inform them that the soldiers had turned against them.

“Most of the marines are dead,” Riku had reported sadly, “and I couldn’t find where José and Arturo went to before Willem and I were pushed back. We’re lucky to make it down here alive…”

“We managed,” and here, Willem winced as he spoke—his fingers were still nursing the gash he had on the right side of his torso. It was a wound that he received during the melee, “at least to ignite their ammunition store. Aside from the handguns they have, they shouldn’t have any powder or explosives to use against us or the dig.”

Raul held the torch high in the small chamber that they were now in. It was plain to see that Willem was struggling to keep himself up; his dirtied body was leaning against the wall for support and his one arm crossed over his stomach to hold in the blood on the opposite end although the red liquid stained his pant leg like melting wax from a morbid candle.

Madeleine looked on with some difficulty, but her mind was already assessing their situation. “Do you know why they turned on us?” she asked Riku hoping to not only take her eyes off of the wounded Dutchman, but also to spare him from expending any more energy talking. Raul was already attending to Willem’s wound as they spoke.

“Not at all,” Riku responded ponderously as he wiped some of the dust away from his eyes. “I just saw Willem jumping out of the rectory window and a general alarm went out. Willem fought most of them in the courtyard and some of the marines came to help but there were just too many. We couldn’t leave you and Raul down here behind so we came down instead and hoped we could at least lose them in the labyrinth. I also managed to get this before we rushed here.”

Riku handed over the map of the labyrinth to Madeleine. She immediately pocketed the item. “You both are lucky that I managed to figure out this chamber in time. It was actually the Colonel himself who gave me the idea.”

Indeed, it was just a few hours earlier that the Colonel had mentioned how akin the dim and narrow tunnels were to the veins and arteries of a man and that it was at this very heart of darkness that gave fear to any of his soldiers that dared to scout within. That was when Madeleine recalled her uncle’s paper.

proposal.png

She had remembered that unlike western alphabets, the Eastern languages utilized pictorial representations usually made up of smaller elements known to create a word that everyone could recognize the meaning of. In the case of her uncle’s original word that meant a marriage proposal, there were three elements. The first element was one that the Colonel had noted for her: “heart” which crowned the top of the character. It was not hard for her afterward to decipher the other two. The middle portion consisting of two opposite facing “flags” of sorts was the symbolism for a gate and the bottom portion was “friend.” Friendship was the gateway to the heart. It was her uncle’s way of showing Carmen how their friendship had brought him to love her—it was indeed a marriage proposal.

After deciphering the image, that was when her uncle’s words made sense: “within friends.” For it was when she compared the labyrinth’s map with the symbol did she find the same character among the maze! Her uncle had constructed walls that, if one looked from above, formed the very proposal word amongst the rest of the convoluted and winding passageways. Thus, it was by investigating the enclosed space of the “friends” symbol that she found the mechanism to open the wall and close it behind them.

The room itself would have been inconspicuous. The walls were the same within and without with the exception of the mechanism that opened and shut the doorway. Within, it was the same brown-dirt ground that was in the rest of the labyrinth with the exception of a single staircase spiraling downward at the center of the small chamber.

“The Timepiece must be below,” Raul said without turning away from dressing Willem’s wound.

“My uncle wouldn’t make it that easy,” Madeleine replied more out of anxiety than pride. She stole another glance at Willem’s bleeding side and contemplated the traps and maneuvers they must master below.

“We can’t go back outside…” Riku commented as he pressed his hand against the cold touch of the dimly lit enclosure. He could feel the vibrations of the searching men beyond them.

“You’re right,” Willem said with a grunt as he straightened himself up. “We have no choice but to continue down and retrieve the Timepiece first. Perhaps your uncle made provisions for an exit down there, knowing him…”

Madeleine nodded quietly while looking into Willem’s resolved gaze. She was the first to turn and walk towards the stairs. For now, she thought, she would be praying for a miracle.

---​

Arturo peeked his head above the window just for a moment before rushing back below with his back against the straw and mud wall of the village house he and José were now stowed away in. Both he and José were at the village at the time that the huge explosion was heard even from the small center where they were exchanging goods with the villagers.

They had run back to the palisade only to watch marines being hewed by their hosts. Arturo had stepped forward to join in the fight, but José’s prudent hand pulled them back towards the village just in time to avoid a small group of the veterans patrolling around for them. They could still hear the huff of running soldiers outside of the hut they were in. The old man who was living in the house—a native of that land—had welcomed them silently. It only took a second in the confusion for both parties to understand what was happening. The old man had pointed to an empty room at the end of the house where the boys could hide. Perhaps it was months of abuse by the soldiers that the old man was willing to help them. Either way, both José and Arturo did not complain at the help.

That was, however, about to be over. “I don’t know who you are talking about,” they heard the old man say in his best Spanish.

“Don’t lie!” one of the soldiers shouted, “One of our men saw them come in here, we know you’re hiding them somewhere!”

There was the noise of a table crash. “Get out of my house!” the old man attempted to say once more. There was a soft thud and a tumble afterward which prompted Arturo to his feet. José stood up behind him as well but did not hold him back. Both moved forward to the doorway and pressed through the thatched separation that camouflaged itself as a wall.

“Leave him alone,” Arturo said turning the attention of the men to him. José rushed to the old man who had fallen to the floor. Already, the wrinkled and tanned face was haloed with a little blood. “Do none of you have honour that you would hit a man like this?” Arturo demanded unable to help spitting out his rage.

The students and veterans looked at him strangely and their eyes were shot with redness. There was contempt in their face marred by a latency of guilt. Arturo understood it immediately; they regarded the old man—a man of native blood—to be lesser than themselves. It was a disdain that their consciences deep within told them was incorrect but where cheeks did not blush at shame, eyes reddened as the anger attacked them inwardly. “Come with us, boy, and we won’t hurt you or anyone else in this village,” their leader grunted as he moved forward.

“We will come with you,” José half shouted through squinting and indignant eyes. It was a declaration of anger more than compliance. His face transformed softly as he turned back to the old man and helped him up. “Thank you, Señor,” José said to him. The old man merely nodded sullenly. “Neither God nor I will forget your courage,” was the last thing José said to him before being pulled away by the wanton soldiers.

The town was quiet except for the rustling of the men pressing Arturo and José along. The rest of the villagers were in their huts naturally afraid of the commotion going on. Overhead, unnatural clouds billowed in their direction as the ammunition storage at the encampment was still being dealt with. It shrouded the village intermittently.

Arturo and José chafed at the rough push of the soldiers—there were about eight men armed with their sabers. With the powder gone, they did not seem to carry any firearms. “Don’t get any ideas,” one of the men said with a slur in his speech as if detecting Arturo’s thoughts by the way the young seminarian spied the men’s weapons. “Even if we don’t have guns, we can still outrun you little runts so don’t even think about running off.”

Both young men grit their teeth as they marched down the center of the village where quiet and scared eyes watched them from the corners of square windows. Arturo followed their stares and each sight of a frightened mother or resigned father holding back a child inured to crying quickened his breath. “What have you all done here…” he growled lowly. “You Godless men have taken hope away from these people…”

“Quiet!” the men at arms yelled back.

Arturo turned at them and took all of them by surprise at first. Half draw their swords. “I cannot forgive you for what you’ve done here!” Arturo shouted as he withdrew the pack off of his back.

José watched the young man in astonishment and had nearly forgotten the pack. That was where they had been keeping that prize from the destroyed village. “Arturo,” José said while widening his eyes, “what are you—”

“Do none of you know?” Arturo now addressed the soldiers who were a bit perplexed by the boy’s sudden courage to know if it was safe to approach him. “I am descended from these people as well and it should be well known to you how they say that the spiritualists of old had the power to control men’s minds through magic. I have refrained from resorting to it till now, but I know what kind of soldiers you are. I have seen it before in the eyes of conquistadors and the low mercenary scum that come here to plunder this great land of its wealth.”

“Now, boy,” one of the veterans started with an annoying flare but Arturo stepped back and yelled once more at them.

“And here I have with me that very same charm that my ancestors used to turn brother against brother!” Arturo brought out the red stained stone from his pack. Throwing it like a cannon towards the men, they parted half and half to let the object fall harmlessly to the dirt. “And with it, I do the same to all of you!” Arturo lunged forward and grabbed José’s wrist before running into the nearby brush.

There was no sound of pursuit. There was no angry call for them to return. Instead, the men look at each other after they had gazed at the stone. Swords were drawn. Just as Arturo said, they all began their struggle not to capture the boys, but to be the last man standing. Metal splashed against metal and the fated stone that turned them against each other lay amidst the melee bathing itself with fresh blood which only seemed to amplify the spell it cast on the men.

---​

The Colonel tightened the bandage on his right arm with a tug of his teeth as he walked into the center of the courtyard. Squinting at the inferno that continued to melt the ammunitions store to char, he waved for more men to transfer river water to the proper locations lest the other barracks fall under the same destruction. He turned away from the north-side blaze and faced eastward to where the chapel was swarming with his subordinates. Ever since they followed the Dutchman and Finn into the labyrinth, there had been parties going in and out hoping to find them, but, without the map that the young lady was working on, all they could do was search blindly in the passageways. He cursed openly.

“Colonel!” Jester was quick to approach him. The Viper made a fist—what could it be now?

“Yes, Lieutenant?” he replied with a groan.

“There’s a boat approaching,” Jester responded while still trying to catch his breath.

“Gehirn?”

Jester shook his head while heaving breaths. “Worse—it’s the new priest they’ve promised us a few months back. He’s coming up from the north side now.”

The Colonel cursed again. “Prepare the south side barracks… I’ll explain things to him there.”

---​

“I’m sorry for the inconvenience, Father,” the Colonel said with a small bow as he ushered the aged guest into the best furnished barracks the little encampment possessed. As the sun began to set, the continually blazing sight from across the courtyard dominated the attention of the gentlemen.

“I saw the smoke clouds from almost two miles upriver, I hope everything is alright” was the comment from the brown habited man—he was wearing the garb of the Societas Iesu. “Would your men please unload my materials from the boat?” he added pointing to the guards at ready attention.

The Colonel nodded violently as he shooed the soldiers away embarrassed at his lapse in courtesy. “You and your novice will be well attended to,” the Colonel said nodding to the heavily bearded man that had also come from the boat. The Colonel’s entreaties were accepted and the old man leaned quietly to his companion and dismissed him outside of the door.

“Kneel,” was the simple command and both knelt down on the hard floor. The sign of the cross was made on both although the Colonel, in his confusion, only did his after he watched the other man commence first.

“Is something the matt—”

“Before I can be accepted into this compound, Colonel, we must wash clean the soul of my host.”

The Colonel had heard months prior that the new priest they were getting was of the stricter sort. Father Hector who was the chaplain in the years before was merely a diocesan priest that was sent from Mexico City every now and again. Lax and generally unable to stand the jungle atmosphere, he tried to keep his visits as short as possible. The Archbishops at the capital thought it necessary to send someone more stringent after rumours of degradation in the spiritual life of the students reached the ears of those in the government. To that end, the Colonel was not surprised at the idealism of this priest. He was, after all, one of the Society of Jesus.

“I’m afraid, Father,” the Colonel said calculably, “that we cannot do this sacrament right now…”

“Why is that, Colonel?” the older man asked while both of his hands were resting inside of his sleeves and his head cast down to the wooden floor on which he knelt.

Perhaps it was the weakness brought on by the experiences of the past few days or perhaps it was the fear of anyone in Mexico City learning of what was going on that pressed him to lie during the sacrament. “Right now, we are in the middle of a problem,” the Colonel explained cautiously.

“My son,” and here the older man’s voice was calming and almost soothing. It was in direct opposition to the crackling callousness of the raging fire across the courtyard. The crack of the splintering wood seemed like a faded memory in contrast to the baptismal flow of this new voice. “No one is here in the room and you know that the seal of confession cannot be broken. Whatever you say here to me now, I cannot share anywhere else. Therefore… let your confession be ardent and sincere.”

Silence overtook the soldier and he gripped at his own pant leg with a pent up anxiety. With eyes downcast, he could not help but let out the sad story of that camp. His voice kneaded out the acts—everything from the mistreatment of the villagers to the medicinal abuse all the way to treacherously attempting to exploit the Peninsular visitors. Tears melted the soot from his face and when he looked up he found his senior looking at him gravely. He expected as much, though, considering the length of his actions. The man in front of him reached out a hand and placed it on the Colonel’s shoulder firmly.

“Will my sins be forgiven, Father?” the Colonel asked with a kind of sardonic sincerity.

“Yes, but there is a problem,” was the reply.

“Are they too grievous to be absolved?” the soldier asked looking down at the floor. It was then that he saw the end of a pistol already pressing against his chest.

“No,” Renault de Fronsac replied, “It’s because I’m not a real priest.”

The Colonel looked up just in time to have the side of his head hit by the only other thing Renault kept on his robes: a large wooden cross. He signaled the “novice” back into the room as the limp body of the Colonel fell to the ground.

“The guards are still unloading the boat,” the younger man said to Renault.

“I’m sorry to have to trouble you to borrow your habit a bit longer, Father Valerio, but I must try to get to my niece. I suggest you make an excuse to take the boat and escape from here.”

“I knew what I was getting into when we saw the smoke and decided to come here, Viceroy. Our Holy Father Blessed Ignatius was a soldier before he became a monk. I’m with you.”

Renault smiled and handed the priest a pistol. “Hide this in your clothing. We’ll fight our way to the chapel if we have to.”

interlude2.gif


Interlude​

Tom sat quietly in the hospital chapel. Like most Jesuit hospitals, the grand facilities also maintained a small chapel for its patients and staff continuing on the legacy of their founder who wished to found missionary and hospital work in Jerusalem. Tom did not kneel, however. The fineries of the crucifix and golden tabernacle meant nothing for him. To him, it was just a symbolic representation. Even worse; the beauty of the gold and ivory work that housed the Blessed Sacrament ruffled him as an affront to his simpler sensibilities. Just another example of Church corruption, he forced himself to think.

Although he wanted to find peace in the chapel, he decided to leave. Turning his back on the tabernacle, he wandered down the hall once more. The sound of the television set passed him like the howling of a passing train.

“Noticias Zorro has uncovered documents that indicate that the Reverend will be moving into a new 10,340 square foot, four bedroom home in suburban Chicago paid for by the Trinity United Church,” the television blurred in and out. Tom did not hear how the retirement home cost about a million Peseta. Nonetheless, it was an interesting note for Tom: it was one of the first times the Spanish government had ever allowed churches aside from the Catholic Church to buy property. However, ever since Vatican II sought a more ecumenical approach to inter-religious relations, there had been many instances of Protestants buying land thanks to the new freedoms.

Tom stopped halfway in the hallway and leaned up against the wall once more. He let himself ponder the wary imaginations of what could be. Perhaps this was why he had written all of his essays and works; he was too tired to continue rehashing them in his head over and over again. He thought that perhaps if he wrote them down on paper they would be exorcised from his mind and he would no longer have to sigh in bed wishing for a world different than the one he lived in now.

Of course that was when the Timepiece entered the vision of his mind’s eye. He did not even know what it looked like, but he had coined the phrase himself. It was only after Rodrigo had told him what it truly meant that he, at first, sensed a great danger from this shocking coincidence. Now, however, he welled up with a sense of hope. What if the horrors he had seen would not need to happen. What if… he could change the world? If Rodrigo is right, then he must be the one to make the choice: the ultimate choice; to cast out the world they know. And it rested in one young man.

Tom looked down both sides of the hallway before taking out his cell phone. He had nearly forgotten he had it with him, but ever since they gave him his regular clothes back, the force of habit brought the barely charged machine into his pocket and now into his hand. He had not thought about using it since roaming charges in Japan would have been exorbitant, but it did not seem to matter now. He scrolled down to where Marcus Councilman’s name was on the screen and pressed the call button. His choice was clear: he must see the Timepiece himself.

Chapter XCVI: A Clear Choice (coming soon)
 

ColossusCrusher

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Noticias Zorro!
ZORRO!
 

VILenin

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Tom contacting Marcus? Not sure if I like the implications of that. Also, I wonder why Tom has some unique ability in regards to the Timepiece. Unfortunate for him as it's placed him in the middle of the struggle for control of it.
 

comagoosie

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Great chapter.

Now we know what the symbol is and how to navigate the maze! And again we see some aztec magic coming into play. We see Renault, which I pronounced dead a few updates ago :D

Overall a great update!

Edit: 2500 post!
 

canonized

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ColossusCrusher: Haha , Well , that's sort of a false cognate so to speak XD . Obviously , the reasoning why I chose that should be obvious XD

VILenin: I'm glad you picked up on that :D . We'll see more of that when the team gets closer to the Timepiece underground . There is , indeed , a human element involved here .

comagoosie: thank you XD and yep ! at least Stage 1 is clear . Now let's see how the rest turn out !
 

unmerged(87122)

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....... Wow. That's all I can say. Well, that and "Top hole, old chap, what what", with a possible "Toodle-pip". XD Anywaaaaayyyy.... Great story/AAR/history/alternate history/alternate-alternate history/extremely complex story-thing involving time travel, magic and Iberia-expansionism. ^^ My only problem is that I will keel over from sitting here and reading this in three sittings, thus missing the next update. :p Anyway, this is a geat piece of work! ~Grumbles about none of the stores in his whole city having Paradox games for sale.~
 

Avernite

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Interesting...

I really think the blood-stone must be gold. Or fools gold, maybe ;)


But hurray for Renault being back alive and kicking (well, hitting with a crucifix is a better description :p )