Time to take a (permanent?) break because…

[Ketchup & friends]

We have created this account (nearly 2 years ago) in order to propose improvements to Paradox.

We hoped this would fix various issues with the games we play (MP).


However, since then Paradox has officially abandoned one of these games (I:R) and de facto abandoned support for old DLC of the other game (HoI4): they haven’t fixed many problems with old focus trees, wrong OOB, wrong state borders etc. for years. As the development of HoI IV continues, the pile of problems grows bigger and bigger.

Yet the forum mods are actively silencing those who point out these errors.

In our case, the discussion thread on Wrong and Missing Ships was closed, although the devs have not fixed these issues and Ketchup has protested this decision, in vain.

Since Paradox apparently doesn’t want to know what their players want them to do to improve their games, a majority of our group has no will to continue.

It takes time discussing, writing down, sharing and publishing our ideas, and many here are extremely frustrated because these suggestions will never be implemented.

This is somewhat depressing for the rest of us, but we decided that it would be unfair to continue posting if only a few of the original group members are left contributing.


Unless Paradox changes their user-unfriendly ways (and unlocks our thread again), this will be the last post from this account.


Those who want to stay may continue to post using their own.



Goodbuy and Thanks to everyone who followed us and contributed to our threads.

 

[Arheo]

I have reopened the thread on naval issues, because it is a genuinely useful store of information on the state of the naval databases. This is not a guarantee that I will implement any or all of what is in there.

Furthermore, nobody is 'out to silence' anyone, and issuing an ultimatum such as 'unlock or else' is ironically more likely to harm your cause than help it. The forum mods did exactly what they were supposed to do in locking the thread. They do not appraise the content of a thread when it is locked, they look at the fact that someone necro'd it after 9 months - and rightly take action.

 

[lordgoof]

Furthermore, nobody is 'out to silence' anyone, and issuing an ultimatum such as 'unlock or else' is ironically more likely to harm your cause than help it. The forum mods did exactly what they were supposed to do in locking the thread. They do not appraise the content of a thread when it is locked, they look at the fact that someone necro'd it after 9 months - and rightly take action.

You get warnings for criticizing development direction on this forum. Its comically heavy handed in many instances.

 

[TempestM]

What's OOB?

 

[Leinad965]

What's OOB?

Order of battle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Angelis]

What's OOB?

OOB=Order of Battle. Simply said it means the hierarchical organization of armed forces.

 

[TempestM]

Checked the threads the post mentions. Wow that's really some self-entitled attitude over closing a necro thread

 

[Harin]

issuing an ultimatum such as 'unlock or else' is ironically more likely to harm your cause than help it.

I believe most people would agree with you that ultimatums look bad and almost never work out. Still, the group called Ketchum & Friends did not start off that way. They asked to have the naval thread unlocked and received only hard no's. Since it seemed obvious that the naval thread was simply caught up in rules that were not flexible enough to allow a moderator to keep open a data collection thread, one could almost feel their frustration. Since you reopened the thread, I can only assume you glanced at the amount of information that was in there and how much work was put into its creation. There was obviously a passion for the game and all things navy that drove them to contribute so much.

I wanted to take the time to thank you for reopening the thread, but also for just caring enough to take a look to see for yourself why it was so important to them.

 

[Maxwell Tornado]

I'll never understand why forums have such a vendetta against replies to old threads.

 

[Desatanica]

I have reopened the thread on naval issues, because it is a genuinely useful store of information on the state of the naval databases. This is not a guarantee that I will implement any or all of what is in there.

Furthermore, nobody is 'out to silence' anyone, and issuing an ultimatum such as 'unlock or else' is ironically more likely to harm your cause than help it. The forum mods did exactly what they were supposed to do in locking the thread. They do not appraise the content of a thread when it is locked, they look at the fact that someone necro'd it after 9 months - and rightly take action.

So does that mean i can make a similar thread and upload 150+ missing and broken defines over 5 years of modding this game, and you will finally fix them?

 

[ShepherdOfCats]

I'll never understand why forums have such a vendetta against replies to old threads.

Same, I always thought it would keep posts to a minimum. I try to search for things first before creating a thread, and sometimes it seems more relevant reignite discussion in a thread that already exists, rather than create a whole new thread and start the entire discussion all over again (unless people just like arguing in circles on the internet from start-to-finish, which . .. . they often do)

 

[Desatanica]

We have created this account (nearly 2 years ago) in order to propose improvements to Paradox.

We hoped this would fix various issues with the games we play (MP).


However, since then Paradox has officially abandoned one of these games (I:R) and de facto abandoned support for old DLC of the other game (HoI4): they haven’t fixed many problems with old focus trees, wrong OOB, wrong state borders etc. for years. As the development of HoI IV continues, the pile of problems grows bigger and bigger.

Yet the forum mods are actively silencing those who point out these errors.

In our case, the discussion thread on Wrong and Missing Ships was closed, although the devs have not fixed these issues and Ketchup has protested this decision, in vain.

Since Paradox apparently doesn’t want to know what their players want them to do to improve their games, a majority of our group has no will to continue.

It takes time discussing, writing down, sharing and publishing our ideas, and many here are extremely frustrated because these suggestions will never be implemented.

This is somewhat depressing for the rest of us, but we decided that it would be unfair to continue posting if only a few of the original group members are left contributing.


Unless Paradox changes their user-unfriendly ways (and unlocks our thread again), this will be the last post from this account.


Those who want to stay may continue to post using their own.



Goodbuy and Thanks to everyone who followed us and contributed to our threads.

I'm genuinely surprised you put that much effort into researching naval ships and don't just make a mod for the game. The developers have clearly shown they will not invest time into stuff like this, navy is completely neglected, It's been 3 years since MTG and they've fixed and added literally nothing to it. And it's especially true with anything related to realism such as more accurate ship models you provided.

 

[TempestM]

I'll never understand why forums have such a vendetta against replies to old threads.

Not all of them. Paradox forums are... special, in a lot of things

 

[Arheo]

Since there are some misunderstandings mentioned in the OP about what people are infracted or banned for here, let me clear it up:

Constructive criticism is a good thing. Criticism, constructive or otherwise, can be delivered in many ways. If you deliver your constructive criticism in a harmful, offensive, or toxic manner, this will result in a) a hard working forum moderator getting frustrated, b) you receiving an infraction, and c) adding to the general feeling of 'I really don't want to get involved on the forums', that many Paradox developers encounter at some point in their careers.

Then there's the purely strawman stuff, of which this user has handily provided me a perfect example:

genuinely surprised you put that much effort into researching naval ships and don't just make a mod for the game. The developers have clearly shown they will not invest time into stuff like this, navy is completely neglected, It's been 3 years since MTG and they've fixed and added literally nothing to it. And it's especially true with anything related to realism such as more accurate ship models you provided.

Who needs to hear from developers? Their intentions are clear based on [insert reason here].

This is something that plays into general misunderstandings about what prioritization means to the gaming industry. Limited resources, limited timescales, and a need to punch with development. Do we have time to fix everyone's pet issue immediately? No - and I make no apologies for that, because if we do, it is at the expense of something else, and not everyone values a feature or fix the same way as you.

Sometimes, it is easier to justify dealing with many related things at once, instead of tackling them piecemeal. That usually involves finding an apt time spot in our very packed release schedule in order to cover a system at large.

More often than not, I will stop replying to conversations after such posts, because once people start putting words in our mouths, there's really no point continuing to engage.

---

All of this to say: constructive criticism will not be punished. Bad manners will.

 

[GeorgieBest]

I always find it a little petulant when people feel the need to announce their "retirement" from forums. Surely you could have accomplished a lot more by just linking to the archived threads and then asking if reopening the threads was not possible that discussion continue in this one?

 

[Desatanica]

Since there are some misunderstandings mentioned in the OP about what people are infracted or banned for here, let me clear it up:

Constructive criticism is a good thing. Criticism, constructive or otherwise, can be delivered in many ways. If you deliver your constructive criticism in a harmful, offensive, or toxic manner, this will result in a) a hard working forum moderator getting frustrated, b) you receiving an infraction, and c) adding to the general feeling of 'I really don't want to get involved on the forums', that many Paradox developers encounter at some point in their careers.

Then there's the purely strawman stuff, of which this user has handily provided me a perfect example:



Who needs to hear from developers? Their intentions are clear based on [insert reason here].

This is something that plays into general misunderstandings about what prioritization means to the gaming industry. Limited resources, limited timescales, and a need to punch with development. Do we have time to fix everyone's pet issue immediately? No - and I make no apologies for that, because if we do, it is at the expense of something else, and not everyone values a feature or fix the same way as you.

Sometimes, it is easier to justify dealing with many related things at once, instead of tackling them piecemeal. That usually involves finding an apt time spot in our very packed release schedule in order to cover a system at large.

More often than not, I will stop replying to conversations after such posts, because once people start putting words in our mouths, there's really no point continuing to engage.

---

All of this to say: constructive criticism will not be punished. Bad manners will.

Really what this boils down to is "not everyone values a feature or fix the same way as you". I personally could have added every single change OP has posted in their naval thread within a few days, and have done so comparatively in terms of changes when i overhauled every nations navy and ship variants in my multiplayer mod. There really is no other excuse as developer of a multi million dollar game like this, other then you don't think improving little things will make more sales, which is understandable from a marketing perspective. If you are passionate about this game like many modders are, there is literally no excuse to putting the time in or 'hiring' someone to do it for you, no matter how insignificant. There's always numerous little things to improve and fix, like ship variants in this case, which as i said, would be a quick improvement.

 

[Arheo]

Really what this boils down to is "not everyone values a feature or fix the same way as you". I personally could have added every single change OP has posted in their naval thread within a few days, and have done so comparatively in terms of changes when i overhauled every nations navy and ship variants in my multiplayer mod. There really is no other excuse as developer of a multi million dollar game like this, other then you don't think improving little things will make more sales, which is understandable from a marketing perspective. If you are passionate about this game like many modders are, there is literally no excuse to putting the time in or 'hiring' someone to do it for you, no matter how insignificant. There's always numerous little things to improve and fix, like ship variants in this case, which as i said, would be a quick improvement.

To ask a rhetorical question: how would you feel if every day, someone told you you had no passion or drive and that they could do your job better or faster than you?

 

[Desatanica]

To ask a rhetorical question: how would you feel if every day, someone told you you had no passion or drive and that they could do your job better or faster than you?

I've played with thousands of people now in my multiplayer mod over the years and no one has said that yet to me, mostly because I've always spent excess time improving it and immediately fixing things based on community feedback and games. However if i was in your shoes as literal game director, i would outsource help from the community, because clearly it's not coming from the development team as mentioned by my comment about it being 3 years and there being no naval update/content/fixes/defines since MTG was released. You could consider letting this person who wrote a small book on the subject do the work, after all it's just simply improving starting variants of ships mentioned, that would be a start since your schedule is so busy with the new supply system.

 

[Arheo]

I've played with thousands of people now in my multiplayer mod over the years and no one has said that yet to me, mostly because I've always spent excess time improving it and immediately fixing things based on community feedback and games.

I have a lot of admiration for the many modders in the paradox community, and was one myself before joining PDS. This said, do not equate modding with working on an active codebase and engine, as well as the script associated with it. Modders have the luxury of potentially infinite time, entirely flexible quality targets, no need for translations, multi-platform support, no business targets, etc.

Changing one word that alters the meaning of a sentence in the base game could quite literally involve dozens of people, and hundreds of man hours after you rebuild for all platforms, undergo certification, and get things retranslated and verified. For script changes, there's more significant QA involved.

I agree that modders can use the canvas and paints that we provide to build incredible things - but the maintenance of those tools is an invisible cost to them.

However if i was in your shoes as literal game director, i would outsource help from the community.

We do this frequently, which is exactly why I want to keep threads such as the one this topic was originally covering, around. We limit this to suggestions, not the actual implementation of features, for reasons that should be obvious.

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

As i have said to Brother James in PDxCon back in May, i am with no means THAT competent to be a member of PDx Gold devs who develop a game that i have poured 2,5k hours and counting here.

But since i know you devs are burdened so much with the imperfect game mechanics, i'll help in anyway i can (not limited to creating suggestion threads and as far as creating mods based on those suggestion) to fix those small content-related things in the vanilla game anyway i can. And after that, just hoping for the devs to eventually implement it to the game for everyone's enjoyment whilst still can get achievements.

This is an OPEN BETA stage after all, i'm more than happy to chime in and help my much-respected devs with constructive criticisms that i can personally did it myself with a mod (so that i'm not appearing to be just blabbering empty words).