• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

M@ni@c

Lt. General
52 Badges
Apr 27, 2002
1.342
456
Visit site
  • Age of Wonders
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
Great idea! :)
Though I'd support making the Chinese tech modifier again about the same as the Muslim one, as China spends its time when it was weakening in the exotic tech group anyway, thereby only harming the other Chinese tech countries.
When that is done, I guess Japan should also go to the exotic tech group when they close down the country.
 

Nikolai II

A bunny with a hat
130 Badges
Nov 18, 2001
9.397
436
www.giantitp.com
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • War of the Roses
  • Lead and Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
Hat pull II, Moslem 1.2, Chinese 1.3, Exotic 1.5, China (Nation) becomes exotic through event (closing of China, no tech in or out).

(Just an attempt to keep this thread from becoming a 'me too' :D)
 

derfderf

Second Lieutenant
66 Badges
Aug 19, 2002
136
47
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
I'm against changing the Chinese techgroup speed, but I think there is potential in splitting the Moslem techgroup in two - an "Eastern Moslem" and "Western Moslem".

#1- One of the hard things to siumulate in the game is why China stagnated so long despite having so many advantages in the early period of the game. An abusive techgroup modifier is a good way to represent it. China was ahead of the rest of the world in Infra and Naval and abreast of the world in Land and Trade at the beginning of the game (and had been since at least the 11th Century). China proceeded to go *nowhere* for 400 years. A few examples:
* China had the best ocean going fleet in the world in the 1420s (Zheng Ho). By the 1600s the fleet had actually regressed and pirates terrorized the Chinese coast. When the Europeans showed up, their ships were vastly superior.
* Chinese industrial production was closer to being "industrial" than anyone else's around 1450, yet stagnated throughout the period of EUII. Some examples:
-Ming porcelain is still prized so much because Qing-era porcelain was of inferior quality.
-There was a Chinese ironworks founded in Hunan in the 11th Century that was the equal of British ironworks from the 1700s, but that ironworks closed in the 1700s for internal reasons, and was not replaced by anything better, or even equivilent.
* China invented artillery in the 11th/12th centuries, and the Mongols used Chinese engineers in their seiges in the Middle East to speed their conquests, yet China in 1700 was grossly behind the European and Ottomans in this area.

The only way to represent this in the game is to start China out being very advanced, but to make advancement prohibitive. In game terms, China historically did not advance *at all* in Infra, Trade and Naval after 1450, and only modestly in Land. As China does better in the game than that, I would propose we actually increase the techgroup penalty for the China group.

#2- As for Muslims, I think a split of the group into "Eastern" and "Western" Moslem would make sense. The Ottomans and North Africans never feel drastically behind Europe in game terms, yet the Moghuls did. After all, a tiny British effort was able to defeat large Moghul armies half the world away, but Russia and Austria still required massive efforts to beat the Turks who were practically next door. And many countries paid tribute to Barbary pirates rather than go through the effort of fighting them.

How about we try keeping the "Eastern Moslem" group the way it is, and make the "Western Moslem" group closer to Orthodox? I don't like the idea of making things easier for China, however.
 

N Katsyev

Field Marshal
43 Badges
Aug 31, 2002
2.582
206
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
Originally posted by derfderf

And many countries paid tribute to Barbary pirates rather than go through the effort of fighting them.

Very true, and something I aways felt as somewhat missing. While Algiers started with a very respectable navy, her tech was never what it should be, not to mention being able to effectively fight European ships. This change along with some bumps up the Innovative slider could help her remain a threat for much longer.
 

Judge

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jan 8, 2003
3.645
1
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
Originally posted by derfderf

#2- As for Muslims, I think a split of the group into "Eastern" and "Western" Moslem would make sense. The Ottomans and North Africans never feel drastically behind Europe in game terms, yet the Moghuls did. After all, a tiny British effort was able to defeat large Moghul armies half the world away, but Russia and Austria still required massive efforts to beat the Turks who were practically next door. And many countries paid tribute to Barbary pirates rather than go through the effort of fighting them.

How about we try keeping the "Eastern Moslem" group the way it is, and make the "Western Moslem" group closer to Orthodox? I don't like the idea of making things easier for China, however.

Interesting ideas but I don´t know about the division of the Moslems though-

The Mughals were very advanced. They built their empire on modern weapons and their economy was stronger than the economies of many European countries.

England did manage to defeat the Mughals but that was in the later period when the Empire was dying. In the 16 th century no European country would have been able to take them out with a small force. In fact they would not been able to defeat the Mughals even with a large force.:p

I think that PE:s proposal should be tested, maybe with some modifications as for levels that maybe seems a bit too favourable to the Moslem countries if we should regard them as one group. Say 1,5 for the Moslem group instead
:p
 

Peter Ebbesen

the Conqueror
61 Badges
Mar 3, 2001
16.914
4.881
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Right on, Commander

Let us try commenting observed results of the tech group changes made in the following posts, before we reach broad conclusions, shall we? :)
 

Judge

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jan 8, 2003
3.645
1
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
Wow, the law is with me apparently. Did not calculate with that effect when I approved of Peters proposal. :D