Time measurement (Immersion)

[Crzyvy]

I assume turns will tick in the same way they do in Crusader Kings or Europa Universalis, each tick representing a 24hour day, some calculations/events happening after ~30 days (a month) and some bigger calculations/events/saves/whatever happening after 12 months (a year).

But that is an Earth centric way of measuring time, which for an alien civilization living in a different star system on a planet where a day might last 8 or 230 hours and a year for them being 3 weeks or 670 months, seems like an arbitrary way of measuring time, imposed on them by pickled herring eating, blonde platypi beings of unlimited power they've never heard about.

So what if the homeworld planet of spacefaring empires was given a random day and year lenght (Bonus points for coming up with a clever system that separates it into month like periods.), and a randomized description of the year 0 and what it signifies for the species. (Birth/Death of local Kwisatz Haderach; first time a nuclear weapon was used by them; forming of their version of United Nations; date of first person in orbit/having sex with an alien, etc.) Or people can customize it themselves at the start screen, less work for You!

So now we have a different time measurement system (Empire Specific Time, EST), which You can display near the Standard Game Time (SGT) and calculate the current date in 2 different systems. So all the game calculations are happening in the SGT and the EST is displayed nearby as an eye candy. (Or just put it as a hover popup, or whatever UI magic spell is deemed appropriate by the UI wizards.) It shouldn't be too taxing for the system as well as development wise, since You probably won't want to do this for every single planet in the game. If You can simplify it even more, more power to You!

If You're feeling really ambitious, (*wink* *wink*, *nudge* *nudge*) You can have some major events during the game (Like once or twice tops.) making Your civilization decide, that it's so significant, that They want to make it year 0 instead of using the outdated birth of Squidsus or Geckocius; or making a minigame inside federations as to which time They should use within the SparrowRoachShitake Alliance. Or even all the event texts using EST, but showing the SGT time as a popup or in brackets. (Or SGT showing normally with EST in popup/bracket. Or just give a customize option, yeah! People love that shit.)

People will use the SGT for pretty much everything anyway, but in plan minimum nerdy people will go "Oh, that's cute." (A popup near the clock.) or "Oh, that's actually interesting." if You decide to use this in the events during the game. Invoking emotions in people is powerful even if only for a moment. And some UI mage will go "Oh, You bastard! I already have too much work!".

 

[ParagonExile]

That would be a lot of work to alter something that you can just manually edit in the game's XML files in five seconds.

 

[Cuthuthulu]

They should make the game realistic and have you suffer time dilation if you move the game camera too fast.

 

[Shaktari]

I figure they will go with astronomical units for measurements of time, just say 1 au equals what ever length of tick you want sort of thing

 

[vyshan]

I am more interested in changing the calendar, so that instead of the game starting on 1, 1, 2200. CE It starts on 1,1, 300 AU(After Union) as an example

 

[Tilarium]

I usually just make my own storyline to cover whatever the system gives us to work with. AU is the safest way because it makes things easier to invent your own time progression.

I like the idea of a race specific time and then when you join unions and federations you set a standard time but letting them both be visible is awesome.

 

[Aegrim]

I figure they will go with astronomical units for measurements of time, just say 1 au equals what ever length of tick you want sort of thing

Au used for time?

 

[Cuthuthulu]

Au used for time?

Just like parsecs.

 

[aitaituo]

Days, months, and years are different on every planet. Many planets will not have months at all. Seconds are arbitrarily long and minutes and hours are just extensions of that. So, while I see the immersion value here, and the idea of a Federation wide Stardate system makes sense, I'm not sure this adds enough to make it worth the time programming it.

 

[AKicebear]

Converting the displayed date into some other one (e.g. rebasing to a new year, converting to a a near year length) is probably very easy, but also has only a marginal improvement to "immersion" and will raise enormous confusion in multiplayer.

Separately, it is unreasonable to expect the basic "tick" of time in the game to be adjusted for each race, given it is one of the most fundamental units in any game with many dependencies in game mechanics.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

the thing is, the game clock is exogenic, not endogenic i.e. it's for you, the human player, here on earth. it's not part of the in-game galaxy. it might be interesting, though, to feature time measurement as an in-game issue e.g. 'The War against Year Zero'

 

[Boops]

Just like parsecs.

I think the point Aegrim was trying to make, is that to use AU as a measurement of time is daft, as, just like with parsecs, both are a measurement of distance. A parsec is a measurement that relies on the AU, and is a larger scale to use when dealing with much larger distances. It's nonsensical. The closest we can get to a universal time measurement would be to use something like Barycentric Dynamical Time (BDT) as it is designed with astronomical things in mind, accounting for time dilation in the process.

I think the confusion lies in the stupid line in Star Wars where Han Solo says something to the effect of, "[millenium falcon is] the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs." - This is a stupid sentence, because what is he trying to imply with this? Is he measuring the time it took based on how long it takes for light to travel the distance of twelve parsecs? Why would that ever be impressive, all he is saying is that it took less than 39.12 lightyears to make that trip... Without knowing the speed of that ship, the sentence is meaningless, because for all we know, the ship could travel at eight times the speed of light, or thirty times the speed of light, then we're back at square one... How quickly did the Millennium Falcon do the Kessel Run?

Using a parsec, even AU, as a measurement of time when we're talking about relativity, is absolutely barmy, and would be similar to measuring time based on the mile. How do you accurately determine how long a mile is? What is the standard for that mile. Is it how long it takes a Honda to travel that mile, or how long it takes a bicycle to travel a mile? Do you see the problem here? When FTL travel is a factor, time gets whacky, but even if that weren't the case, how would you propose time be set? Time has to be set with a standard in mind. On Earth it's set using the Greenwhich Meridian line, in space, you'll still have to set it based on or around something, be it the black hole at the center of the galaxy, or the number of rotations on your home planet.

Using a geocentric method of time keeping is both convenient for the player and more relatable. All this being said though, I would much prefer the date start at Year 0 - The year of Interstellar travel, rather than arbitrarily dating it a few hundreds year in the future, Earth time (except when playing humans plzperadex).

 

[Zarine]

I think the confusion lies in the stupid line in Star Wars where Han Solo says something to the effect of, "[millenium falcon is] the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs." - This is a stupid sentence, because what is he trying to imply with this? Is he measuring the time it took based on how long it takes for light to travel the distance of twelve parsecs? Why would that ever be impressive, all he is saying is that it took less than 39.12 lightyears to make that trip... Without knowing the speed of that ship, the sentence is meaningless, because for all we know, the ship could travel at eight times the speed of light, or thirty times the speed of light, then we're back at square one... How quickly did the Millennium Falcon do the Kessel Run?

What if the Kessel run was a navigation within an asteroid field race where searching for the shortest path without exploding was the goal ?! (supported, but not verified in some star wars wiki)
Because at no point he speaks about speed, only parsec. We all assumed it is speed because that's how we measure the capacity of a vehicle but once you have FTL which are dilating time and such, speed has no more meaning. Then the maneuverability of the vehicle is the most important point so doing the shortest distance is a good indicator.

 

[aitaituo]

What if the Kessel run was a navigation within an asteroid field race where searching for the shortest path without exploding was the goal ?! (supported, but not verified in some star wars wiki)
Because at no point he speaks about speed, only parsec. We all assumed it is speed because that's how we measure the capacity of a vehicle but once you have FTL which are dilating time and such, speed has no more meaning. Then the maneuverability of the vehicle is the most important point so doing the shortest distance is a good indicator.

The expanded universe explanation is that Kessel is located in the middle of a bunch of black holes, which make navigation circuitous. Han's boast is that the Falcon is so fast it can travel closer to the black holes and take a shorter route. A bit of a weak explanation, IMO.

 

[beckermt]

The expanded universe explanation is that Kessel is located in the middle of a bunch of black holes, which make navigation circuitous. Han's boast is that the Falcon is so fast it can travel closer to the black holes and take a shorter route. A bit of a weak explanation, IMO.

It makes some sense, but requires the listener to know a lot about the Kessel Run as well as ships in general. The idea could be that cutting corners (less distance covered) requires flying closer to dangerous gravitational threats (black holes!), which consequently means that the ship is ALSO running faster than others, because if you weren't quick/powerful enough you'd get eaten by the black holes.

So, the shorter distance implies a faster transit time, because it necessitates a faster ship. A large bulky freighter wouldn't be able to put out the requisite engine power to make the Run in only 12 parsecs. It would be dragged into the black holes.

Of course, a tiny ship with a big engine could maybe do the Run in a shorter distance, but then you're not really moving any cargo. Ergo, the listener must also know that Han pilots the Millenium Falcon, a YT-1300 freighter.

 

[Kuschelflummi]

I think that would actually stretch the realisms thing a bit tooo much.

 

[bz249]

Based on the fact that at least in EU3 you are not using Maya/Islamic/Hindu etc calendar even though you are playing the respective nation it is kinda unlikely.

 

[Kollatius]

Oh god not another one of those "MUH IMMERSION!1!1!" types...

 

[Crzyvy]

That would be a lot of work to alter something that you can just manually edit in the game's XML files in five seconds.

So, while I see the immersion value here, and the idea of a Federation wide Stardate system makes sense, I'm not sure this adds enough to make it worth the time programming it.

What programming time? Plan minimum can probably take like an afternoon for, You know... A person who does these sort of tasks for a living.
How much time do You guys think, setting a simple calculating algorythm (Well, depends on how much randomization it would do.) with end result being a display of a number, can take? (Plan minimum. Changing/writing events is what would take time.)
Well, i'm probably undervaluing the work required a little, (Or overvaluing Paradox employees!) but i seriously doubt any schedules will be ruined because of that.

------------------------------------

They should make the game realistic and have you suffer time dilation if you move the game camera too fast.

And sell really weak DLC tasers, that You plug to the PC and it zaps You every time You lose a spaceship.

------------------------------------

I figure they will go with astronomical units for measurements of time, just say 1 au equals what ever length of tick you want sort of thing

From the screenshots and videos You can clearly see in the upper right corner, that They use the Gregorian Calendar, just like in Crusader Kings or Europa Universalis.
(Incoming nitpicker in the next few posts who brings up possibility of Julianic/Arabic/Chinese/etc. calendar, just to be a smartass... I actually don't remember if They divide months like They should in Clausewitz or just into 30day months, so not sure if i should brace myself for that nitpick too.)

------------------------------------

I am more interested in changing the calendar, so that instead of the game starting on 1, 1, 2200. CE It starts on 1,1, 300 AU(After Union) as an example

But that's exactly the sort of thing that system could portray! I just went a little bit further with my imagination. Plus You're thinking from a "Human in Sol system" start perspective, which is only one of the hundreds _____ of possible options for a race and homeworld. (I'm leaving space for a Paradox employee to come in and say "More like thousands". Flamboyant Schemer me)

------------------------------------

Separately, it is unreasonable to expect the basic "tick" of time in the game to be adjusted for each race, given it is one of the most fundamental units in any game with many dependencies in game mechanics.

I think You misunderstood me.
When i wrote

So all the game calculations are happening in the SGT and the EST is displayed nearby as an eye candy.

I meant... Well... Exactly what i wrote there. All the ship movements, turn ticks, science point generation etc. according to the Gregorian Calendar, that the internal game clock is using. While the Funky Squid Calendar of Your Jazzy Squid People being pure fluff.

-----------------------------------

Converting the displayed date into some other one (e.g. rebasing to a new year, converting to a a near year length) is probably very easy, but also has only a marginal improvement to "immersion" and will raise enormous confusion in multiplayer.

I think that would actually stretch the realisms thing a bit tooo much.

Using a geocentric method of time keeping is both convenient for the player and more relatable.

You really think Paradox would be that silly to throw such an unfamiliar (Even confusing, for some people.) idea at You without giving You an option to turn it off or ignore it? Give Them some credit. Take the cultural renaming of provinces option in Europa Universalis as an example. Woosh!

The Ideas are not set in stone (... tablets... anymore), we can change them to suit our needs and goals, discuss and think about the possibilities. Expand, refine and transform them first. Then be a sceptic.
(A rant a day, keeps the voices in Your head away.)

-----------------------------------

Based on the fact that at least in EU3 you are not using Maya/Islamic/Hindu etc calendar even though you are playing the respective nation it is kinda unlikely.

But that's actually a very good idea! Expansion, refining and transformation of ideas in action. We should hug!

----------------------------------

Oh god not another one of those "MUH IMMERSION!1!1!" types...

Oh yeah, i also hate those suckers who want to have some fun playing the game. I bet They will even have some playthroughs where They don't blob ad infinitum. (!!!) What a bunch of scrublords. By the way, i think the game should be stripped of all graphics so it has more space for numbers. Just vast sheets of raw data passing on the screen like in the Matrix. I'm a dreamer!

 

[Vishaing]

It would be cool to use a system where the game measured time in arbitrary "Time Units" and then had a collection of Calenders configured which allowed it to convert those units into local time units on the fly. Using a system like that you could even list of comparative times and adjust the "Turn Length" for local calenders.

It wouldn't be hard I just programed such a system for one of my random projects it took me maybe 2 hours?

But I doubt Paradox will do it for Stellaris or any other game they make.