Time limits

[unmerged(577)]

I guess it is pointless to argue with a guy with 19,255 posts.................or even try to get the last word in.


It just seems to be a significant detail: the game being 10 years long or 12.

 

[unmerged(11849)]

What difference does it make when it ends if the Axis AI plays so poorly that the game could end in 41 or 42. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that I can be playing Japan, launching my own expansion policies in Asia, not be allied to Germany, and suddenly find out that the game is over because the Axis AI was defeated? If this scenario is true, then the game can become very frustrating. I hope someone can clarify this.

 

[unmerged(11917)]

So, if I'm the Soviet Union, and the axis is defeated, I can't go around and invade say France?

I think the thing to remember here is that it is almost beyond belief that either germany or japan would ever have been able to mount a cross-ocean continental invasion. The logistical problems alone would preclude it, and there is also the fact that the US would have no trouble whatsoever creating a land army large enough to deal with any conceivable landing forces. That doesn't even count the US navy. An invasion of alaska would be much more likely, but wouldn't really achieve anything for many of the same reasons. It's like the soviets invading the usa. It was just never a realistic option for them.

One only needs to have Britian, then Iceland, then Greenland, then launch an invasion from Greenland to Canada, then to the US (similiar to the US's "stepping stone" tactic). And for the Soviets, if they wanted to, they could invade Alaska, as they were the military superpower after the war.

 

[unmerged(2778)]

Originally posted by Medivh
One only needs to have Britian, then Iceland, then Greenland, then launch an invasion from Greenland to Canada, then to the US (similiar to the US's "stepping stone" tactic).

Aha simple as that ey? One two three, and of we go to take over the U.S. And while the Germans are conquering the northern coastlines of the Atlantic, the americans just sit and wait for an invasion of Canada? Right.
If Great Britain were to be invaded I think the U.S would enter the war much earlier. Perhaps not preventing the invasion or occupation, but at least making damn sure Hitler doesn't get any further.
Maybe even Stalin would have interfered and entered the war on the americans side.

Originally posted by Medivh
And for the Soviets, if they wanted to, they could invade Alaska, as they were the military superpower after the war.

But they can't in HOI since Alaska isn't on the map

 

[unmerged(6780)]

Ending the game

I think what a lot of people are failing to grasp is the essential nature of this game. It is not sticking to strictly historical outcomes, nor is it opening the gates wide to some sort of WWII-esque fantasy scenario. HoI is all about WWII and WWII was all about defeating the Axis, or, more properly, Nazi Germany. Japan wasn't a solid member of the Axis. They were just opportunists (isn't every nation?) who saw a way to further their interests by joining in a theoretical alliance with Germany. To all intents and purposes, Japan wasn't really an active Axis member.

If the Axis is defeated in 1941, say, then, really, what is the point of playing the game further? Sure it'd be fun to see how things might then turn out between the Allies and the USSR and/or Japan, but it wouldn't be WWII then, it'd be some sort of alternate Cold War.

The arguments on the other side have validity, too. Maybe we might see a patch/scenario allowing for the end conditions to be only reaching 1st Jan, 1948. It wouldn't be a WWII game, then, but it should still be fun

 

[unmerged(11849)]

PBI...I understand and respect your opinion on how the game is to play out...I guess I'm guillty of associating EU to this game. I just find it difficult to accept that the game length can hinge on the performance of the AI playing as the AXIS. Though there are historical parallels to WWII in this game, it does branch out on it's own. Just check out the AAR's that have been produced to see how the game veers away from the historical tree, which is a good thing. Using my Japan example, if I'm running roughshod over Asia and the Pacific and I'm about ready to face the US in a showdown, it would be a shame that I may not be able to complete the scenario because Robo-Hitler ran Germany into the ground. If Germany was defeated, I should expect a Russian move into China, causing me serious touble. For the game to just stop before the time limit is difficult for me to understand. Afterall, it was a World War!
One final note....if the game is centered on the defeat of Germany and nothing else, then why bother playing a nation in the pacific or South America?....in effect, you are just noodling around while the AI slugs out the important battles in Europe.

 

[unmerged(11814)]

I think 1948 is a good date is you get the same historical results as the real WW II the push into germany. However, if there is a constant push outward by germany anything can happen. If the outward push had erally happened then the war could have gone on for years after.

I know that the game is to simulate WWII but it is also open for changes. Such as a German Victory. It seems in these game that if the Germans are the Victors it is hard to say what could happen as the game will end during the outward push.

On the other hand I am sure the TECH-TREE does not include many TECH invented after 1948. If there were post 1948 TECHS on the tree it would almost be impossible to guess how those techs would have given an advantage during THIS war, as we do not know what possible TECHS would have been invented to counter them. For example SONAR and RADAR were invented to counter sub-marines. We know that because it actually happened. To move the game past 1948 would leave to much speculation in what new techs would have been invented. As we all know some of the driving force for the ALLIED victory was new technology.

Nanich

N

 

[Egoist]

I think it would be very cool if we were given the choice to play on or stop after the war was won. You know like the Civilization option:

A: So like you won! This game is over.
B: No wait, just let me play a couple of more turns. (no further score will be entered.)

 

[unmerged(577)]

The victory conditions as set by the allies in WW II were the unconditional surrender of the axis powers. If this had taken until 1946, or 1949, or 1951 then WW II would have lasted that long. I think the statement that the game going beyond year 19XX no longer being a WW II game is not correct.

 

[Jon Shafer]

It needs to end eventually.

Besides, all AARs end well before the 1948 limit. Unless you sat there doing nothing for 4 years, there's really no need for a date beyond 1948.

 

[unmerged(5097)]

So the game ends when Axis are defeated? Or when Germany is defeated? I'm confused of this talk of game ending while Japan is still strong. Or is that a case of non-Axis Japan?

 

[Jon Shafer]

The game is over when the Axis are defeated. If Japan hasn't joined the Axis and Germany/Italy are defeated, then the game ends.

 

[unmerged(11849)]

So the trick is, if Germany offers you (as Japan) an alliance, jump at it so you can continue to play if the German AI is defeated. That's good to know.

 

[unmerged(6780)]

Originally posted by J P Falcon
If Germany was defeated, I should expect a Russian move into China, causing me serious touble. For the game to just stop before the time limit is difficult for me to understand. Afterall, it was a World War!
One final note....if the game is centered on the defeat of Germany and nothing else, then why bother playing a nation in the pacific or South America?....in effect, you are just noodling around while the AI slugs out the important battles in Europe.

I think a lot of folks have been jaded by Civ's near-open ended play The reason for time limits, computer game or boardgame, has a lot to do with 1) the game has to end sometime , and, 2) it helps to force at least a semi-historical course of play.

I play Advanced Third Reich a lot. That game runs until either Germany is defeated or Summer '45. Not once have I felt ripped off by the turn limit. And in not one game have things gone exactly as they did historically. Hell, in most games, some really wierd things happen

As for why anyone would want to play a nation other than one of the major combatants, well, I really can't see why they would In fact, I think Paradox went to a lot of wasted time and effort in making every nation playable And the reason it was called a World War was because it involved all of the major world powers and was begun by Germany.

I think that there's a good reason why almost every game ever designed around WWII in total has some sort of time limit and/or condition that ends the game when the Axis or Germany are defeated. It could be that time has come for that long-standing tradition to change. All I'm saying is that the designer's notes I've read, and the books on wargame design by some of the industry pioneers make good arguments for trying to create historical-ish victory conditions.

I think HoI would be fine with or without the provision for ending the game if the Axis are conquered. I'd even like to be able to, say, as Japan, leave the Axis after conquering the UK, France, and the USSR and forcing the US to sue for peace, then declare war on Germany and see how the chips fall

 

[unmerged(11849)]

I'm sure once I get my grubby little hands on the game, things will turn out just fine. I just will have to get used to the fact that I wont be in control of when the game could end. Usually it's how you perform which determines when a game is over. Play Japan and be so reckless that you have your head handed to you by 1942 or 1943, and the game is over, well, that's to be expected. But, be on a roll and doing fairly well in 1943, to only end up suddenly reading a pop up window which say's AXIS DEFEATED - GAME OVER! ( or whatever) will admittedly leave me scratching my head.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by J P Falcon
I'm sure once I get my grubby little hands on the game, things will turn out just fine. I just will have to get used to the fact that I wont be in control of when the game could end. Usually it's how you perform which determines when a game is over. Play Japan and be so reckless that you have your head handed to you by 1942 or 1943, and the game is over, well, that's to be expected. But, be on a roll and doing fairly well in 1943, to only end up suddenly reading a pop up window which say's AXIS DEFEATED - GAME OVER! ( or whatever) will admittedly leave me scratching my head.

Just before Germany gets annexed as last Axis state, ask to join their alliance (they won't refuse). When they then annex Germany u will become teh new Axis leader.

 

[unmerged(11849)]

Thanks for the advise. I most certainly will do that if the situation rears itself.

 

[unmerged(11906)]

The only fair option in regard to a time limit would seem to be for the developers to patch the game and include an option for the player to continue after 1948 if that's what they want to do, after all we play these games to enjoy ourselfs and if we want to carry on enjoying the game post 1948 why should that option not be available?

Also what would be the point of playing a minor country if as some people have posted -the game ends when the Axis powers are defeated, I would have thought that any war game should end when you as the player are defeated not computer players unless of course it was you who beat them!

 

[unmerged(6780)]

Originally posted by jayg

Also what would be the point of playing a minor country if as some people have posted -the game ends when the Axis powers are defeated, I would have thought that any war game should end when you as the player are defeated not computer players unless of course it was you who beat them!

Well, HoI was intended, in my opinion, for players to play the major powers. Paradox made all countries playable to satisfy the fans who'd start yelling for all countries, like what happened with EU and led to EUII.

 

[Darkrenown]

Originally posted by BiB
1/1/1948

Unless the axis is defeated That would be fine is the game was Axis vs Allies but theres also the Comitern. I'm hoping a patch will change it so the games plays to 1/1/1948 regardless of whos left.