Time for a break from this game.

[Orkonkel]

Opaque UI and hidden rules + hidden rules changes do indeed plague the game still, and the effects can certainly be seen in this thread, but the concept of perpetual intermediacy comes to mind also. We have a mix of both in this case.

Though it's worth noting that for whatever reason, the vast majority of players wind up being perpetually intermediate, so making the game's rules accessible and understandable to them is kind of important.

Opaque UI? I just tried calling Hansa into a war (which according to my declare war screen they would accept), but since they were already in a war against Burgundy with one of my target's allies (or the target itself, I dunno), they were not able to join. After their war with Burgundy ended, I was unable to get them to join my war because they had already been called to all active wars.

Sigh.

Box should just not be crossed if they're unable to join the war for whatever reasons.

The new expansion looks kind of poopy to me if the proposed map was part of it. In any case, I feel your pain OP, I take breaks from the game a lot, and when I come back, new rules, nothing previously posted matters or works anymore. Okay, the game evolves, EU3 did as well, it's a matter of life with this franchise, that I do kind of still love, even though EU4 didn't take the same place in my heart that EU3 holds.

However, as Spain you can beat France silly, you did something wrong. You must have taken a mil idea, there is no real other response to that. I beat them up all the time. Maybe your were playing on hard, but even then... I mean, England can do it, and Spain actually has more money than them and a shorter trip to deliver mercs, and Aragon probably won't give access, well, to either of you.

You are in a very defensible position in Spain, if you keep a close eye out (and you should have destroyed every other fleet in the Western hemisphere in the first 50 years) then they can't bring troops into your land because there is a string of mountains protecting you. Just turtle until they peace out and then break out. There is a mandatory white peace with no action after 5 years.

Also, you really should have beat the poop out of Austria to start and gotten the Inheritance for yourself, just saying, see my threads.

This was right at the start of the game, before I'd gotten any new tech at all. I had Burgundy in an alliance and we were winning the war, then inheritance happened and 30,000 of allied troops vanished into the ether. I saw your thread and am planning on trying it out. Always been wanting to try inheritance + Iberian wedding, but last time, Savoy (I think it was Savoy) inherited Burgundy even though Austria had released Styria. Silly royal marriages.

 

[BFTeixeira]

I don't have a problem with complexity at all, but I do have a problem with trial and error gameplay in a strategy title and a UI that misleads the user. Those things are unrelated; fixing the latter will not materially impact the former.

EU IV does not need to lean on fake difficulty.

Yes, the UI is not perfect, and yes there are so many rules and so undocumented, that you'll have to learn from other more advanced users (through LP videos, and AAR's, or the EU4 Wiki). But, in my opinion, the reward on investing in that learning process is absolutely worth it.

Could you elaborate on the fake difficulty?

 

[Zelius]

Opaque UI? I just tried calling Hansa into a war (which according to my declare war screen they would accept), but since they were already in a war against Burgundy with one of my target's allies (or the target itself, I dunno), they were not able to join. After their war with Burgundy ended, I was unable to get them to join my war because they had already been called to all active wars.

This was right at the start of the game, before I'd gotten any new tech at all. I had Burgundy in an alliance and we were winning the war, then inheritance happened and 30,000 of allied troops vanished into the ether. I saw your thread and am planning on trying it out. Always been wanting to try inheritance + Iberian wedding, but last time, Savoy (I think it was Savoy) inherited Burgundy even though Austria had released Styria. Silly royal marriages.

1. I can't believe that with your apparent veteran status that you did not expect either of these things at all. Also, Burgundy wasn't getting occupied by France while you sieged their lands, I hope.

2. Thread should have ended after "So, Bye", and died after maybe a few people expressed their opinion. I thought you were taking a break?

 

[Viperswhip]

Because no one ever sees coalition versus AI.

Oh wait

Yes it is restrictive. Real life is restrictive.

It happens a lot actually, you may just not notice it, and they tend to be short lived because the AI is less robust than you most of the time, so the wars happen quickly, and cores are liberated. Just put it so you get a pop up and pause any time a war is declared and you will see that the AI often gets coalitions.

Still, WC is possible, it's just a tremendous pain the bum.

 

[BFTeixeira]

It happens a lot actually, you may just not notice it, and they tend to be short lived because the AI is less robust than you most of the time, so the wars happen quickly, and cores are liberated. Just put it so you get a pop up and pause any time a war is declared and you will see that the AI often gets coalitions.

Still, WC is possible, it's just a tremendous pain the bum.

I think Beagá was being ironic in his post...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, the UI is not perfect, and yes there are so many rules and so undocumented, that you'll have to learn from other more advanced users (through LP videos, and AAR's, or the EU4 Wiki). But, in my opinion, the reward on investing in that learning process is absolutely worth it.

Could you elaborate on the fake difficulty?

Trial and error gameplay and denial of critical information (game rules) are both subsets of fake difficulty. Being forced to make uninformed decisions that can't be undone (when it's reasonable to know them) is as well. You could make a case for luck-based too (monarch points) but that case isn't nearly as strong, the 3 listed before that are rock solid fake difficulty elements in EU IV. Lying UI would also fall under this category.

A comparable Mario example is hacked levels with invisible coin blocks that knock you into pits (watch DDRJake's cat Mario video for an example of EGREGIOUS use of fake difficulty ). EU IV has actual depth in its choices (at least with many of its gameplay elements, some could use work). This kind of stuff is strictly negative to it because it adds inaccessibility without adding actual complexity.

 

[WhiskyGlen]

.....Are you aware you can use a "Return Core" option in a peace deal to avoid AE altogether for a bit of DIP points?

Return core still gives you AE. But I am not sure his point on vassal feeding. It gives the vassal the same amount of AE/OE, but that has no effect on the AI's attitude towards the player. My first time using vassal feeding was an amazing eye opener for me...

 

[TheGrouch91]

Return core still gives you AE. But I am not sure his point on vassal feeding. It gives the vassal the same amount of AE/OE, but that has no effect on the AI's attitude towards the player. My first time using vassal feeding was an amazing eye opener for me...

Return core does not give AE. Occupying and giving them to vassals does.

 

[Korsan82]

The mere fact that you can achieve WC shows that the game is not restrictive.

The mere fact that every patch adds restrictions to prevent WCs shows that the game design is "Restrictions are easier to add than challenging content".
There is a difference between inventing arbitrary numbers which are there to hold the player down and punish him and adding content that makes the road to a WC impossible while shifting the focus to other aspects (such as the advertised "nation building" or something new called "domestic politics" or "empire management").

Apart from war the game simply doesn't offer anything. The colonial game is boring, the trade game is too static, diplomacy is shallow, internal empire management is not given at all... In short: The game design is driving you into war gaming, while the game designers want you to do less of it and more of... what? Got my point?

 

[Viperswhip]

This was right at the start of the game, before I'd gotten any new tech at all. I had Burgundy in an alliance and we were winning the war, then inheritance happened and 30,000 of allied troops vanished into the ether. I saw your thread and am planning on trying it out. Always been wanting to try inheritance + Iberian wedding, but last time, Savoy (I think it was Savoy) inherited Burgundy even though Austria had released Styria. Silly royal marriages.

Well, you don't understand the Inheritance mechanics. I don't think I explained in my post, but the event can't fire if Burgundy is occupying a province of the Empire. The easiest one to get to and get back up for with some nice provinces with mountains around it is Sundgau, transfer to Burgundy and keep an eye on it.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Apart from war the game simply doesn't offer anything.

So, what are you doing here?

 

[BFTeixeira]

Trial and error gameplay and denial of critical information (game rules) are both subsets of fake difficulty. Being forced to make uninformed decisions that can't be undone (when it's reasonable to know them) is as well. You could make a case for luck-based too (monarch points) but that case isn't nearly as strong, the 3 listed before that are rock solid fake difficulty elements in EU IV. Lying UI would also fall under this category.

A comparable Mario example is hacked levels with invisible coin blocks that knock you into pits (watch DDRJake's cat Mario video for an example of EGREGIOUS use of fake difficulty ). EU IV has actual depth in its choices (at least with many of its gameplay elements, some could use work). This kind of stuff is strictly negative to it because it adds inaccessibility without adding actual complexity.

Some of what you're saying is not game faults, but game design options. You may not agree with them, but that doesn't turn them into faults or fake difficulty. About not having the game rules in-game, sure they should be there, but it's not like they're hidden in some lost city in the middle of the jungle.

 

[Orkonkel]

Well, you don't understand the Inheritance mechanics. I don't think I explained in my post, but the event can't fire if Burgundy is occupying a province of the Empire. The easiest one to get to and get back up for with some nice provinces with mountains around it is Sundgau, transfer to Burgundy and keep an eye on it.

I don't understand your point here. I beat Austria in a war and forced them to release Styria. I dragged Burgundy into war with France and inheritance happened. Burgundy had a royal marriage with a 3+ provinces nation in the HRE (which makes them eligible to inherit before Spain according to the wiki). Think it was Savoy, not too sure.

Am I missing something here? Perhaps I just misinterpreted your post.

 

[Kanno_FR]

Apart from war the game simply doesn't offer anything. The colonial game is boring, the trade game is too static, diplomacy is shallow, internal empire management is not given at all... In short: The game design is driving you into war gaming, while the game designers want you to do less of it and more of... what? Got my point?

That's EUIV biggest problem imo this game could be so much better than it actually is, if there was more interesting things to do and if some of the features were not tedious and unfun.

 

[WhiskyGlen]

Return core does not give AE. Occupying and giving them to vassals does.

I guess I misunderstood. As I was thinking about how you gain AE for liberating your own cores (which makes little sense to me). But Tenshin's original comment doesn't make much sense anyways as vassals only have so many cores to liberate. Beyond that, it is simply feeding them non-cored province for them to core. Though it certainly makes expansion quite easy since you spread the AE enough to avoid coalitions.

 

[Korsan82]

So, what are you doing here?

Do I need any kind of permission from YOU, sir, to express my criticism?

 

[Ratanka]

I played over 1,000 hours of Europa Universalis, but now, it's finally time for me to take a pause. I consider myself a mediocer tactician/strategist, certainly not an awful one, and yet after every patch, I can make less and less progress. Started up probably a dozen different games over the last week or so.

• Glorious Spain, soon to be lead by Enrique de Retardo - get wrecked by France post Burgundian inheritance. Fight in mountains? No prob. France will demonlish you anyway because they want to. Try again. Same thing. What the hell is going on here? Finally, third try, I get a decent start, get my French provinces. Decide to take some provinces from Portuengland. They're chums. I am the mighty Spanish tercio. Portugal's army is smaller but due to crap rolls I get routed and they chase and stackwipe. Again, no manpower, like 6 war exhaust, game over, gg, fun game.
  
• Fine. Burgundy next. Ally Austria (WTF no rivals?), Castille, and Aragon. Let them kill France for me. Transfer sieges to Aragon so I only take one province myself directly in the war, letting them get the most of the AE (this will be patched soon enough I guess, it's kind of a cheap trick). Give three provinces to Aragon that only borders me and France, eventually, they sell these provinces to me. Trade gold for expansion = success. Austria goes into interregnum, puts a guy of my dynasty on their throne, Bohemia is now emperor. I declare on Austria to force PU, only Bohemia is allied to them. Fine. I can do this. Suddenly, Lithuania joins war. Suddenly, Aragon joins war. Suddenly, Denmark joins war. People allying during wars is fine, but they shouldn't be able to get called into the war. Now, getting creampied by four great powers, when I could've probably had an enjoyable and interesting war with the original two participants. Fuck my life.
• Ok. Sweden. I Swedened a lot. Used to blob like mad. I can do this. Infantry is stronk in this one. I CAN DO THIS. Win independence war, take cores back, screw you Norway, taking stuff from you too. POWERING UP! Soon, Russialand will fear my mighty troops. Get 100 tradition general event. Woots. Two stars! Peasant uprising. 13,000 in Stockholm, no bad terrain, rebels have no general, I go there with my 11,000. War with Denmark just ended and my forcelimit ain't super great. Figure I can take on 13,000 peasant rebels still, my infantry power is stronk and I have discipline bonus. I GET DEMOLISHED. This is some badass ninja peasants. Drains the last of my manpower. Spirals into disasters. Game over. GG Paradox. Well played. Much enjoy. Would play again.
• I SEE YOU ARE TESTING ME, PARADOX. Ottoderps card activated; the pain will be immense. First game, take a unclaimed province from Austria in defensive war to release Styria; coalition instantly forms, I deal with it but king dies and 13 years regency council. Well, it's early in the game, going to restart and try spreading expansion into any direction not HRE. I take Ottoman cores + Georgia, get discovered fabricating claims on islands, suddenly Venice AND Marmadukes are in coalition against me. Their combined fleet demolishes mine and it's basically game over. Insert a new coin. So. Play it chill as fuck. Go into Levant early to get a long ass truce with Marmadukes. Build up fleet and demolishes everything in the Mediterranian. Decide to war Aragon for lands in Italy. Get greedy and 100% warscore because I am stronk at this point; instantly, -two- coalition wars start against me, each one with 100,000+ infantry and 40,000+ cavalry against my combined forces of 44,000 troops.

What the unicornsing unicorns? Did the design team figure that this game is supposed to be played by elite players only? I fight long, hard wars, and then have to back down from my claims because the repercussions of expansion far exceeds the benefits. None of the great, historical, European wars (and the following peace treaties) can be simulated in this game. The Italian Wars? Yeah, right, if France player went to war over Naples they'd end up coalitioned from Ottomans to Spain. Meanwhile, the lucky nations anvils hit hard all over Europe, removing OPMs and crumbling empires alike. Hungary? Om nom, Austria was hungry. HRE? Le Baguette need more basetax and there's plenty in Germany. England? No one cares about England. Go sit on your island.

Seriously, this game is starting to get balanced around players like DDRJake and Atwix, not around the average player who just enjoys the grand strategy genre. I don't suck at the game. I got some of the neat achievements, like the Great Khan, Jihad, Re-Reconquista, etcetera, but I don't think I'd be able to do any of them today. These days, the game just is infinitely more difficult to play for us regulars.

So. Bye.

I'll probably be back someday, but for now, this is just way too frustrating and tiresome. I play to relax and enjoy myself for a few hours (or days, or months), but when the game just makes my throbbing bulgevein go berserk, it's time for me to find something else to do. Cheers.

- OrKonkel

1000h and you call yourself casual player ?
i played like around 800 hours, i never finished a single game LOL ^^ but i call myself expert ... i did albania and every shit that seems impossible, played like every god damn hard nation even the boring ones in the old days ...
i god LOVE the game is getting harder because it needs to get harder because it was so easy in the start ^^ now al that need to be fixed is the vassal in war feeding with giving them provinces sieges (which is still to op) then its nice and hard like it have to be

btw when you guys think its to much diplo to less war, you just scary bitches xD get some good allies and destroy coalitions, destroy ae and civil wars, just fight them and you end in glory ^^ if you not want anything bad happen at all ofc you cant go to war nonstop xD

Foul language removed - Seelmeister

 

[Lauri]

And I still think that boosting rebels made the game more tedious rather than it is more interesting.

I disagree. Now you roughly get an idea when things get rough, and get to prepare for serious revolts. However, before, there was a random chance (every month?) that rebels would spawn, with no indication of their arrival. The rebels were weaker, but more numerous. Now they're tough, and actually gives you a fight (well, that depends on your size, and your national RR).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Some of what you're saying is not game faults, but game design options. You may not agree with them, but that doesn't turn them into faults or fake difficulty. About not having the game rules in-game, sure they should be there, but it's not like they're hidden in some lost city in the middle of the jungle.

The only one you can even make a case for as a "design option" is monarch points, because the player has some degree of agency with them and how to use them (though limited and still potentially luck based, it is a reach to put them as NECESSARILY fake difficulty, though they have elements of it). The others are soundly within the bounds of fake difficulty and have no place in a strategy title. They are strictly negatives for EU IV.

 

[Illianor123]

Some of what you're saying is not game faults, but game design options. You may not agree with them, but that doesn't turn them into faults or fake difficulty. About not having the game rules in-game, sure they should be there, but it's not like they're hidden in some lost city in the middle of the jungle.

You can choose to design a game to have fake difficulty. This is not a good choice. EU4 is a game designed with fake difficulty, or just has fake difficulty due to bugs/changes (lying UI)
(It has lot of proper difficulty, and is a great game, but some bits are bad).