Tie Feudal/Clan Government preference to Cultural Traditions

[Beyond Disbelief]

Currently, there is no way to flip between Feudal/Clan government. While it may be WAD, I refuse to believe a lot if issues with it is WAI.

On the cultural borders, between conquests, conversions, and inheritence across descendents with different religions, it creates very weird situations. There's been several screenshots from this forum I've seen in the past with for example, Catholic-French Acquitane King locked to clan government.

I think the Royal Court and Cultural revamp update would be a great opportunity to address this issue. I don't even mind if Clan/Feudal preference would be highly restricted by parent culture or what not, so long as a reasonable way to adjust exists. It also make sense to me that Clan/Feudal preference is tied to culture rather than religion.

 

[fodazd]

I honestly don't really care whether government form is tied to culture or religion, but there should *definitely* be a way to switch if you or your vassals end up with the wrong one.

 

[Unknown Sage]

I made in the past the suggestion to toe this to a religious doctrine. But indeed with the culture rework it might be better added to the culture part. But make it one of the culture pillars rather than a tradition

I would if they indeed do this though urge the developers to not make it a static part of the culture that cannot be changed like ethos and traditions. You should definitely be able to swap this around at the cost of say prestige. If only to enable one to do for example a persian feudal restoration of zoroastrian persia, while the islamic persians keep using clan for example.

Additionally I also second fodazd in that there needs to be a way to switch if you end up with the wrong one

 

[Matihood1]

I don't know if it should be tied up to culture. Let's say crusades succeed and Levant is now made up of christian feudal realms. One of the rulers of those realms decides to grant some of the newly conquered land to some local Arabian dude to decrease penalties from governing over wrong culture lands. Should that guy end up as a clan vassal even though the rest of the realm is 100% feudal? Perhaps religion would be a better choice. I don't know.

 

[Beyond Disbelief]

I don't know if it should be tied up to culture. Let's say crusades succeed and Levant is now made up of christian feudal realms. One of the rulers of those realms decides to grant some of the newly conquered land to some local Arabian dude to decrease penalties from governing over wrong culture lands. Should that guy end up as a clan vassal even though the rest of the realm is 100% feudal? Perhaps religion would be a better choice. I don't know.

That might not be mechanically desirable but i would argue that would be pretty realistic. Just because a FAANG company opens an office/HQ in China doesn't mean the local employees are suddenly embracing American culture or compatible with American corporate structure/flat hierarchy/individual accountability; the locals would still require clear top-down direction and aren't used to American-style separation of work/private life. Clan government is similar in that regard; the vassals expect close personal family ties just for normal trust/loyalty not just political.

 

[Unknown Sage]

That might not be mechanically desirable but i would argue that would be pretty realistic. Just because a FAANG company opens an office/HQ in China doesn't mean the local employees are suddenly embracing American culture or compatible with American corporate structure/flat hierarchy/individual accountability; the locals would still require clear top-down direction and aren't used to American-style separation of work/private life. Clan government is similar in that regard; the vassals expect close personal family ties just for normal trust/loyalty not just political.

I mean sure they might expect that. But they aren't the ones who decide such things. If a feudal sets them up under the condition that they have contractual obligations to adhere to then that has nothing to do with how their culture would prefer to run things. because surprise, they aren't in charge anymore.

Actually the more I think about this the more I feel like we need a completely separate system for deciding which government type you and your vassals use that is separate from both culture and religion.

 

[Beyond Disbelief]

I mean sure they might expect that. But they aren't the ones who decide such things. If a feudal sets them up under the condition that they have contractual obligations to adhere to then that has nothing to do with how their culture would prefer to run things. because surprise, they aren't in charge anymore.

Actually the more I think about this the more I feel like we need a completely separate system for deciding which government type you and your vassals use that is separate from both culture and religion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the main short difference between Clan and Feudal is opinion malus for not having married relationship with your liege and thus more likely to join factions. I don't see how that's not perfectly reflecting what you're describing? They aren't happy. You can tell them the new rules all you want they aren't going to suddenly be happier.

 

[Matihood1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, the main short difference between Clan and Feudal is opinion malus for not having married relationship with your liege and thus more likely to join factions. I don't see how that's not perfectly reflecting what you're describing? They aren't happy. You can tell them the new rules all you want they aren't going to suddenly be happier.

Unless you empower some new people that would be perfectly fine under the new system because they gained new titles and power.

 

[Unknown Sage]

Correct me if I'm wrong, the main short difference between Clan and Feudal is opinion malus for not having married relationship with your liege and thus more likely to join factions. I don't see how that's not perfectly reflecting what you're describing? They aren't happy. You can tell them the new rules all you want they aren't going to suddenly be happier.

It's actually not the main difference. The main difference is that in the case of the games feudal government you have an exact contract which the vassal is to obey. You set exact percentages of levy and gold contribution as well as several additional special contract options.
Clan govenment on the other hand does not have a strictly defined relation between vassal and liege and thus is based entirely on opinion.

This means that in the case of a feudal character appointing a feudal lord below them. If the vassal were to switch to clan that means they essentially break the contract, and thus voiding their legal right to the land they were given under the condition of the contract. The only way I would consider your vassals breaking their contract and going to do their own thing acceptable is if that would give the liege imprisonment and revocation reasons for all the titles that they own.

The same problem however does not apply to a clan vassal setting up a clan vassal that then becomes feudal. Because the clan government doesn't have strict rules to obey.