Tibetan region changes

[AirikrStrife]

So not long ago I did make a suggestion on Tibet, here comes a much updated thread on the matter with more detail and historical accuracy. All drawings I done myself are just rough pointers and in not accurate.

Spoiler: The historical set-up

Representing semi-tribal regions like Tibet accuratly is not possible, in fact, only the region of Kham had over 20 different kingdoms at various times. This is a suggestion to broaden the historical accuracy, suggest new provinces and flavor for the region in various ways.
Generally speaking the region had a small population density but at the same time covers an area over 2.5 million square-km big and historical sources notes it as being rich, with trade going over Tibet from India, central asia and China with tibetans being known for exporting gold and horses and buying tea. I think it's justifiable from what I've read that Tibet becomes a slightely richer region with a few extra provinces.

Spoiler: Western Tibet

For most of the Tibetan history between unified states, western Tibet would be it's own cultural and political "center". At one point western Tibet, that is roughly the EUIV provinces of Guge and Ladakh, would form a political entity which would then fracture over time, reform, fracture und so weiter. Occasionally Western Tibet would be conquered by Mongols, be at war with central Tibet or with Kashmir but for the entire EUIV timeline there would be at least one independent kingdom in Western Tibet.

My first suggestion concerns an increased amount of provinces in the region, it should be mentioned that all of the Kashmir region/northwestern India could do a bit of a redrawing, most notably the EUIV province of Baltistan does only barely correspond the historical province of Baltistan, as can be seen in this map:

but I will only focus on Tibetan areas.

Ladakh should get Tibetan culture and be split in two provinces, with Zangskar (at times an independent kingdom). Zangskar should also take some land from the Himalaya wasteland province corresponding to the Lahul and Spiti valleys under Ladakhi influence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahaul_and_Spiti_district
Also information on the Guge kingdom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guge
I find it more reasonable that Ladakh has Tibetan culture due to it not only being a Tibetan language spoken in the region but also adherence to Tibetan Buddhism and the close political and cultural network of western tibet. Baltistan as having been converted to islam could better be represented with an Indic culture. Besides the political conquest of Ladakh would be more within the west tibetan sphere rather than northwest indian as can be seen in Ladakh at it's height.

Red areas circle roughly the proposed province of Zangskar, dotted circle is a rough localisation of the actual Baltistan with remainding territory better being an independent state (Gilgit)

The Black stripes indicate areas which should be under control of the Guge kingdom. Which I suggest being split into two provinces (with some territory being taken from Shigatse, possible some parts of Changtang) and the Kinnaur district of modern India in the Himalaya range to create a border to Garhwal), with many choices of what to call them. Ngari more correctly being the northern part of the current province would remain with a new province using any of following names: Guge, (Mangyül) Gungthang or Puhrang/Burang. All refering to different kingdoms/regions within the west-tibetan political sphere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangyül_Gungthang
While the Gungthang kingdom was independent in 1444, using the Gunthang as a guidline for the province would allow the Ngari province to remain unchanged. Guege/Burung are basically interchangable and would be centered in southern Ngari province

Last the Yellow circle refers to the Kingdoms of Dolpo and Lo united into one independent kingdom of Lo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolpo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Mustang (with a picture of the Lo flag)
While Lo was a small and fairly isolated kingdom, it was a major transhimalayan trade link and it will provide a better connection between Nepal and western tibet, after all the Khasa kingdom of central Nepal did at one point conquer Guge without going through central Tibet.


Also there were gold being mined in western tibet so I suggest the new province in Guge, whatever it'd be called produces gold

All in all that is three new provinces into Tibet and Ladakh changing culture (in case nothing else is done with the Kashmir region). I suggest a slim boost to the capitals of Guge and Ladakh giving them atleast 4 development each. Starting off Ladakh with 10 development and Guge with seven (Lo will suffice with 3). Furthermore Guge and Ladakh should have missions relating to reuniting western tibet and gain claims upon each other. The changes also includes more accessability in the region, maintaing the unique defensive position of Tibet but making it more dynamic.

Spoiler: South Tibet

First of the paradox got the areas wrong, if nothing practical in the game is changed, at least the names should be switched with Ü being the central area around Lhasa and Tsang being the west.

Mainly working to split Bhutan into new provinces so that Bhutan is no longer part of the Ü-Tsang area and can form it's own area. Red circle denotes the future independent kingdom of Sikkim with Darjeeling hills in India which would be part of Sikkim until the late 18th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikkim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darjeeling_district#History

Yellow circle is the Bhumthang kingdom, one of the largest kingdoms in eastern Bhutan before unification in the 17th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bumthang
These two new provinces would reasonable be poor (3dev) and start with high autonomy comparably to what Bhutan starts with.
Furthermore Gold were produced in central Tibet (Ü), I can't say exactly were but it was a major source of revenue for the central goverments in Tibet, but I suggest placing the mine in Nagchu (a 3 dev province)

Spoiler: Eastern Tibet

As I mentioned in the begining, Kham wasn't a united kingdom nor where Amdo part of Kham or a united Kingdom. It is ard even to assert exact borders between the three main regions of Tibet. Nevertheless I tried making more sense of the area. I keep Kham as a kingdom but add AMdo as a new independent kingdom starting as a ming tributary representing the kingdom of Choné (much like the kingdom of Dege is used to represent all of Kham)
Details about the Choné kingdom can be read at this page:
http://places.thlib.org/features/24353/descriptions/81?frame=destroy

To get some more detail out of the region there are a few things that should be noted. The center of the kingdom of Choné is slightely southeast of Xining, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonê_County
Meaning a new province needs to be carved out partly from chinese territory. The region in question is reffered to as Tewo on the map of eastern regions provided. The goal ought to be a smother eastern border for Tibet taking into consideration Xining and Songqu as part of "Tibet"

Furthermore, while exact borders are vague, sources I looked at has been clear that the city of Gyegu and surrounding is part of Kham rather than Amdo, so I would keep that province in Kham and either make a new provinces in the east, or let the remaining territoy be divided by Changtang and Amdos other provinces.

The division of areas could be solved with A new area called "Hor" taking three northernmost regions of Kham.

Spoiler: Tibetan culture

What is the connection between Tibetans and Burmese people? distant related language? different version of Buddhism? There are no close relationship between any of the Tibeto-Burman languages in the game that would have any regocnition between speakers of the different languages. There are also vast geographic distances, and very different cultural spheres. I suggested an overhaul of Southeast asias smaller cultures before the last patch https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...g-at-south-east-asian-culture-groups.1004122/
But would go on to update that. I don't know much about Yi or Dali cultures, which direction they would most logically fit in, with tibetan, burman or chinese
Tibetan however, I now suggest becomes it's own culture group (called Bodish) To understand Tibetan diversity this article is a good start: http://places.thlib.org/features/5226/descriptions/5
Essentially "Tibetan" is not a coherent group of people but rather better compared to something like EUIV's south slavic (since it come to include non tibetan speaking peoples like Qiang peoples in Kham). The cultures of the Bodish group would be: Tibetan (In Ü area and Shigatse), Kham (in Hor and Kham area) Amdo (In Amdo area and Songqu) Ladakh/Bhotiya in Ladakh/Guge provinces of western Tibet and Dzongka/Bhutanese for the Bhutan area, (Changtang and Lo get's either Ladakh/west or Tibetan/central)

Spoiler: Secterian war

As I can't come up with how events should work, but in Tibet at the entire EUIV timeline there where serious rivalry between different sects of Tibetan Bhuddism. Historically speaking this was nothing new in itself but in the 15th century a new sect arose called Gelug (commonly known as yellow hat sect) which came to be dominant in Tibet (Dalai Lama is the Gelug leader) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelug and the older sects are commonly known as Red hat sect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_sect. War and conflict between on the other hand dominant Gelug against the older sects would be a constant element of Tibetan politics throught the whole era with different princes and monasteries supporting different sects. (For simplicity only using red hat and yellow hat is enough)

Spoiler: Relationship to Mongols

This is there this excellent suggestion will be good to point to https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-make-1-21-the-mongolia-patch.1012148/
And see a Tibet overhaul as part of a larger Mongol overhaul.
Mongols from Kubilai Khans era until today has variously seen Tibet as their spiritual beacon, ensuring several tibetan lamas prominent positions in Mongol culture
Including Phagpa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drogön_Chögyal_Phagpa who were spirutal advisor to Kubilai Khan
The third Dalai Lama who converted Altan Khan and mongols to tibetan Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Dalai_Lama
The fifth Dalai Lama who with the aid of Güluk Khan became king of Tibet and ruled over Tibet with the Mongols: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Dalai_Lama
There is a lot of interesting history to build from to create flavor events and to encourage mongol interest in Tibet.

What are the thoughts of east asia enthusiasts? @Warial @JKiller96 @Semi-Lobster

 

[JKiller96]

Tibet is probably one of the blandest regions in the game and a United Tibet is unreasonably poor and weak. A Mongol Tibet formable should also be a thing.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Tibet is probably one of the blandest regions in the game and a United Tibet is unreasonably poor and weak. A Mongol Tibet formable should also be a thing.

Yes I found it reasonable Tibet should get a boost to provinces and development. I did however do two runs with Tibet quit recently and it was quit enjoyable. I could use several rival wars to boost my MP which allowed me to buy Feudalism and Renaissance before 1500 and not fall behind in technology at all. I ended up having several 30-40 dev provinces spread out over the tibetan plateau with even manufactures spawning in Lhasa and Enlightenment spawning in Kathmandu.
What is lacking is of course events and flavor that would increase the experience. Also I think more provinces and countries and also different requirments to form tibet (as I wrote in a previous thread) would spread out the gameplay and make the process of forming Tibet more of a game. As of now you can play Kham, declare war on Ü-Tsang and annex them in one war and form Tibet. Rather it should be required to hold one province from every major kingdom/region in the plateau Ü, Tsang, Ngari, Kham and Amdo to form Tibet and with more countries involved there would be more alliances.

I did suggest a formable Koshut Khanate in previous suggestion but retracted from that, Khosuts were a particular tribe of Mongols and it make no sense that say Korchin would form them. More reasonably there would be some sort of events granting a mongol ruler permanent claim on Tibet and missions to take them.

In most games Oirats end up choosing Sunni Islam as their syncretic faith, dumping Vayrajana, which is very reasonable in the game, but in history Oirats and most Mongols would becoming hardcore Buddhists and I think there should be some way to tip the scale for this to remain the case.

 

[SantoshKashyap]

While improving the region of Tibet and also its events, it will be advisable to look at Nepal as well which played a major role into religious make-up of Tibet in those days - socially, politically & economically. (Sikkim of-course to be carved out with same family ruling Ladakh as well).

Contrary to the belief, the Vajrayan Buddhism actually originated in Pala Bengal (Vikramshila University in Bhagalpur, Bihar, India, was the main academic centre.) After its fall, Nepal became an important seat of Vajrayana (along with prevalent Mahayana) and from there the main seat of religious power moved to Tibet for Nepal was seeing a wave of Hindu revival. Later after the Mals became half Rajput and main line of Gorkha ended with another Rajput, Buddhism in Nepal saw more darker days. (On a lighter note, the Tantra philosophy of Hinduism combined and emphasised into Mahayana is Vajrayana).

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Yes, in general Tibet needs a boost in several ways, in provinces and in development because of as now, in nearly every game I've seen they get annihilated by one of their southern neighbours. We should be striving to prevent such egregiously routine ahistoricty in the game if possible. New provinces would also do nothing but benefit the Tibet region, in particular the lack of a Sikkim province is notably shortsighted. A Bhutan region would strengthen the south, and your suggestions for Ladakh would also better reflect their regional power, although for Baltistan I might suggest Tibetan culture with the Sunni. All in all I like the provincial suggestions a lot. I would go further and suggest some changes within in China itself when it comes to Tibetan culture, in particular the Jinchuan Valley, which was the site of some of the Qianlong Emperor's bloodiest battles of his 10 Great Campaigns in the mid to late 18th century. The Jinchuan campaigns against Red-Hat/Bon Gyalrong Tibetan peoples of Eastern Sichuan with the fighting also spreading to parts of Southern Gansu. It took several decades of fighting pacify the era by the Qing and was one of the most financially draining campaigns for the Qianlong emperor. I would suggest redrawing the Eastern portion of Chengdu province and the southern portion of Songqu province into a new "Jinchuan/Gyalrong" province with Tibetan culture. I would like to see Jiazhou redrawn as well but the province is far too small to be subdivided IMO.

 

[AirikrStrife]

While improving the region of Tibet and also its events, it will be advisable to look at Nepal as well which played a major role into religious make-up of Tibet in those days - socially, politically & economically. (Sikkim of-course to be carved out with same family ruling Ladakh as well).

Contrary to the belief, the Vajrayan Buddhism actually originated in Pala Bengal (Vikramshila University in Bhagalpur, Bihar, India, was the main academic centre.) After its fall, Nepal became an important seat of Vajrayana (along with prevalent Mahayana) and from there the main seat of religious power moved to Tibet for Nepal was seeing a wave of Hindu revival. Later after the Mals became half Rajput and main line of Gorkha ended with another Rajput, Buddhism in Nepal saw more darker days. (On a lighter note, the Tantra philosophy of Hinduism combined and emphasised into Mahayana is Vajrayana).

Yeah I made a brief comment about Nepal being ahistorical in another post and one of the devs kindly suggested I check up on the meaning of the names of the Nepalese provinces. Nepal were literally more than 50 independent kingdoms and principalities. With every province meriting to be it's own kingdom. I see why devs did as they did. I was loosely thinking in lines of making Nepal into a few more countries and then making Nepal a formable instead. But I dunno

 

[AirikrStrife]

Yes, in general Tibet needs a boost in several ways, in provinces and in development because of as now, in nearly every game I've seen they get annihilated by one of their southern neighbours. We should be striving to prevent such egregiously routine ahistoricty in the game if possible. New provinces would also do nothing but benefit the Tibet region, in particular the lack of a Sikkim province is notably shortsighted. A Bhutan region would strengthen the south, and your suggestions for Ladakh would also better reflect their regional power, although for Baltistan I might suggest Tibetan culture with the Sunni. All in all I like the provincial suggestions a lot. I would go further and suggest some changes within in China itself when it comes to Tibetan culture, in particular the Jinchuan Valley, which was the site of some of the Qianlong Emperor's bloodiest battles of his 10 Great Campaigns in the mid to late 18th century. The Jinchuan campaigns against Red-Hat/Bon Gyalrong Tibetan peoples of Eastern Sichuan with the fighting also spreading to parts of Southern Gansu. It took several decades of fighting pacify the era by the Qing and was one of the most financially draining campaigns for the Qianlong emperor. I would suggest redrawing the Eastern portion of Chengdu province and the southern portion of Songqu province into a new "Jinchuan/Gyalrong" province with Tibetan culture. I would like to see Jiazhou redrawn as well but the province is far too small to be subdivided IMO.

Yes the general borders of Kham in east and also south could be drawn better. Perhaps 1-2 new provinces. Southern Kham isn't that far away from Dali nor eatern Kham from Chengdu in the maps I found. Could also be a good balancing act now if Ü-Tsang get's a boost

 

[SantoshKashyap]

Yeah I made a brief comment about Nepal being ahistorical in another post and one of the devs kindly suggested I check up on the meaning of the names of the Nepalese provinces. Nepal were literally more than 50 independent kingdoms and principalities. With every province meriting to be it's own kingdom. I see why devs did as they did. I was loosely thinking in lines of making Nepal into a few more countries and then making Nepal a formable instead. But I dunno

Yes Nepal actually should be a formable nation and should not be existing from 1444. The small principality should not be such problem. ChaubisiRajya (24 principalities) and BaisiRajya (22 principalities) can be separate single state nation (like Garjat or Gondawana or Rewakantha has been shown further south. Actually confederacy of small zamindars (as later they were called) was a feature throughout North, Central & East India in that age who actually played very important role and since they maintained army on their own, the moment central power was weak, they would declare themselves king in their own capacities. (Jat, Baro-Bhuyan etc. there are numerous in fact.)

You can also check below link, I have added two maps for Nepal, see if that can be of any help.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...res-a-reference-for-devs-enthusiasts.1015793/

 

[Metz]

The developers should have released the Mandate of Heaven DLC a month 1/2 later so that they could work on changes in South East Asia and Central Asia that way the whole of Asia is improved in one go.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

To illustrate the situation in Sichuan, here is a map of Qing province with the Tibetan Tribal Kingdoms (tusi) , which as you can see are many. The two towers on the map represent the Jinchuan war towers, massive fortified watchtowers the people of Jinchuan/Gyalrong used to stave off the Chinese for so long. The region of eastern Sichuan was the vague continumm between Qing controlled Tibet and the normal administration of Qing China. Within this region were many small Tibetan Kingdoms in a general region called "Gyalrong", which was also a bastion of "Red Hat" Buddhism, seen by the Yellow Hat controlled position of the Dalai Lama as heretical. For a very good breakdown of the wars and the region there's a pdf that basically explains everything. I think a rework of this section of China could be in order. Nothing major, probably just a few provinces split and merged but generally something to add some depth to the area without getting too complicated. This area was a scene as a constant drain on Chinese military resources, either from the Tibetan kingdoms, the Miao, or just regular bandits.


If you want to read about the Jinchuan Wars I would suggest this very descriptive PDF on the history and background of the conflict
https://publikationen.uni-tuebingen...46846/pdf/Theobald.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

[AirikrStrife]

I proably should have done this in OP, but for actual detail about the secterian war and Tibetan relations to Mongol Khans I found this book https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259927982_Tibet_A_History_by_SAM_VAN_SCHAIK to be very detailed and informative (the short notes I wrote down of the topic containing nothing to actually work with)

 

[AirikrStrife]

A link telling some of the history around the fifth Dalai Lamas take over off Tibet. Also includes a very good map marking the boundaries of cultural Tibet http://www.info-buddhism.com/The_Great_5th-Dalai_Lama-Ngagwang_Lobzang_Gyatso_Samten_Karmay.html

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Looks like a very interesting read, I'll have a look at it!

Upon looking closer at the provinces along the Chinese-Tibetan border area, I have to say that the province of Jiazhou is fairly useless in addition to being anachronistic (having been folded in 1196), it's purported capital city, Leshan (which is an amazing place btw) is not even within the borders of the in-game Jiazhou province, I suggest renaming the province of Jiazhou after the important border city of Yazhou (modern day Ya'an) and giving the province Tibetan culture while maintaining it's current provincial borders. I would advocate for a new province cut out from Western Chengdu (which should be seen as more of a city province anyway and still bigger than the Luzhou province) and southern Songqu because as of now the Jinchuan War cannot even really occur since the province doesn't actually exist to revolt against the Qing.

As for names and alternative names, I suggest:

Province: Jinchuan (Chinese), Gyalrong (Tibetan); City: Ma'erkang Zagu (Chinese), Barkam (Tibetan)
Province: Ya'an Yazhou (Chinese), Khampa or Minya-Chagla(Tibetan), Niep-Sha (Yi); City: Ya'an (Chinese), Yak-nga (Tibetan), Op-Rro (Yi)

 

[Warial]

Upon looking closer at the provinces along the Chinese-Tibetan border area, I have to say that the province of Jiazhou is fairly useless in addition to being anachronistic (having been folded in 1196), it's purported capital city, Leshan (which is an amazing place btw) is not even within the borders of the in-game Jiazhou province, I suggest renaming the province of Jiazhou after the important border city of Ya'an and giving the province Tibetan culture while maintaining it's current provincial borders.

Leshan is situated at the confluence of Dadu and Min rivers. IF rivers are correctly drawn, then it is most certainly inside the province. You are right that Jiazhou (嘉州) didn't exist after 1196, but it wasn't folded but promoted to Jiading prefecture (嘉定府). Leshan is a relatively modern name dating from 18th century as a local name for Jiading.
Ya'an (雅安) is also a modern name, Ming period one would be Yazhou (雅州).

I would advocate for a new province cut out from Western Chengdu (which should be seen as more of a city province anyway and still bigger than the Luzhou province) and southern Songqu because as of now the Jinchuan War cannot even really occur since the province doesn't actually exist to revolt against the Qing.

+1 Though maybe instead of Ma'erkang I would propose Zagu (杂谷) as a Chinese city name instead. Ma'erkang is a very modern transliteration of the Tibetan name created in PRC times.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Once again, astounding work Warial! Thanks for suggesting better names for this idea. I would love to hear any further issues or ideas you have on Tibet and neighbouring regions

 

[AirikrStrife]

after the important border city of Yazhou (modern day Ya'an) and giving the province Tibetan culture

Was Ya'an tibetan though? I never seen the city included as a tibetan city, though it is just on the border of Tibet and underneath the tibetan highlands.

Anyway, new map of cultural regions in and around the Tibetan plateau, including areas for tibetan related peoples. I can't say for sure if it displays a specific date or whether it (I think is more likely) is a more generic/general map over the regions.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Concerning borderzone Kham/Amdo since maps offer different version of where it would be I dunno if the Gyegu province needs to be redrawn and could be kept as it is and added to Kham. The Rebgong with adjacent parts of China could probably become three provinces (Rebong, Choné and Golok) constituting the Amdo kingdom with some land in the eastern part of the province possibly moving over to Tsaidam.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Ya'an was Chinese border city overlooking a vast region of minor Tibetan Kingdoms and had a mixed Han-Tibetan/Qiang population. During the Ming era it was a major trading centre for tea and horses from Tibet (who had invaded it several times in the past).

Here is a good introductory article on Ya'an. What ethnicity to make the province is tricky since the two people were so intertwined politically, religiously and economically. For example in 1520 sixteen local Tibetan kingdoms invaded sacked Ya'an.
http://www.sichuanvillage.org/chapters/xiakou/earlyhistory

 

[JKiller96]

Was Ya'an tibetan though? I never seen the city included as a tibetan city, though it is just on the border of Tibet and underneath the tibetan highlands.

Anyway, new map of cultural regions in and around the Tibetan plateau, including areas for tibetan related peoples. I can't say for sure if it displays a specific date or whether it (I think is more likely) is a more generic/general map over the regions.

View attachment 262307


View attachment 262310

I'd give my life for Tibet to look like that first map.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I see it as Ya'an was a Chinese city. Using the different maps I tried to draw an approximate "cultural border" between China and Tibet.
Of course it's a fluctuating border and there are a lot of smaller people squized in in the frontier land, Pumi, Nakhi, Mosuo, Qiang, Jiarong, Lisu etc. Some very close to Tibetan/part of tibetan "nation", some I don't know where they end up. I still hope PDX overhaul the cultures of the zone between India and China a bit.
I would argue there can only be one new province with Tibetan/Kham culture in eastern Kham roughly taking territory from Garze, Songqu and Chengdu.

For the southern province of Lijiang, whether it should be redrawn or not is not that important neither is culture that important as it was a high diversity so as long as it's in the same culture group as tibetan it's fine (In case there is a split of culture groups and Bai and Tibetan aren't together anymore it should be tibetan), though the province should adhere to vajrayana since the tibetans and many of the other people in northern Yunnan are tibetan buddhists.

Reading up on this it also got me thinking on Dali and the Bai. I can't find any information on which school of Buddhism they are actually following, whether it is Mahayana, Vajrayan or Theravada. This page is the only info on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azhaliism But I'm not sure it is actuall dominant Buddhist school among the Bai people