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AirikrStrife

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Let's look at Kham and it's periphery. (For more maps see my threadmarked posts).

Kham's early history is the history of tribes and small kingdoms, a lot of Kham's history is not properly known before the 17th century even. Though we know about the major realm of the Kham region, many which originated in the mongol era.

The major realms in Kham during the first centuries of the EUIV era include: Hor, Nagchen, Lingtsang, Chakla, Batang, Nyarong, Powo, Derge, Muli, Lithang. SOme of these were established before 1444, and some after. Obviously some sort major simplification is needed to represent this area and in this post I will talk about guidlines in how one can approach Kham.

2018-05-30 (2).png



This map is based on modern tibetan counties within china, many which to some extent correspond to historical principalities and regions (many principalities are based around valleys and are thus 'natural' administrative units.

For the record I need to say about my previous suggestion on the Kham region, that I have advocated for a Lingtsang province in the southeast taking up most of thecurrent tachienlu province. This have been somewhat of an error from my part before, as I didn't realise Lingtsang and Lithang were different states. Map update of my suggestion still stands, but the proposed Lintsang province should be called Lithang (I marked the modern Lithang province with a 1 and the county corresponding to the center of the Lingtsang province with 3).

2 is the Muli county and 4 Nangchen both corresponding to the historical states.

What I have marked out with my colorful circles are cultural regions:

Green corresponds to core Kham.
Red corresponds to Gyelrong, a region sort of overlapping with Kham.
Yellow is the borderland between Kham and Amdo proper, including Golok confederacy territory and the Songqu areas.
Blue marks the border of core Ü-Tsang (and also for some stretch the border to Arunachdal Pradesh but let's not care about that)

The area north of blue, west of green and south of yellow are poorly defined periferial regions which according to various map I have seen during my studies have been taken to belong to any of the three different main regions, but also as some sub-regions of their own. Reason why the region has been so hard to define is because tibet have been so fractured and then categorizing region there no strict borders exists, different methods will yield different results and maps are sometimes based in various degrees on language, culture, religion, political history etc. The regions marked with red and yellow likewise are a sort of cultural and political border region between Kham and Amdo areas.

Karl Ryavec in his book "a historical atlas of tibet" describes the tibetan macroregions (Ngari, Ü-Tsang, Amdo and Kham and then goes on to describe the borders between the eastern region:

"while similarly vast and vaguely defined folk regions historically separated these core areas from one another. The Hor and Powo regions separated Kham from U-Tsang, while the Golok and Gyelrong regions separated Kham from Amdowhile similarly vast and vaguely defined folk regions historically separated these core areas from one another. The Hor and Powo regions separated Kham from U-Tsang, while the Golok and Gyelrong regions separated Kham from Amdo"

For a long time I have asserted that the Hor state was located in the area between Kham, Amdo and Ü-Tsang. I have just realised that there might be two political structures using the name 'Hor' one located in northern Kham just under Golok (most commonly refered to as five hor states) and the other one the one I have previously asserted which is refered to as 39 Hor tribes. Many sources have mixed this information up, and been inconsequent while describing (some sources use 5 hor states for the 39 tribes and vice versa) what I now take to be two different states having the same name (at least when transcribed in western sources).

and he leaves us with this map of tibetan regions:
2018-05-30 (3).png


I have frequently argued that Kham and Amdo should be split in two seperate states, that chinese Taozhou province and Songqu province be moved into the tibetan states. Now Iwant to discuss again what we can do with Kham and it's periphery.In theory we could get 4 new states by breaking out the above mentioned subregions, Powo (Ningchi province) Hor (Nagchu province), Golok (new province) and Gyelrong (Songqu and the new wasteland in a new tachienlu province, with the remainder of current tachienlu province be renamed Lithang).

Is this too many small insignificant countries? Maybe, though PDX are making the map more and more detailed, with a better rework of the Dokham region it wouldn't be a problem to have 5 states or so in the region. For now, after Splitting Amdo from Kham, I would prioritize getting the Gyelrong state up and running, a province for the Golok confederation, though part of Amdo state is a fairly important addition.

Before continuing looking at the Hor tribes and Powo, I want to take a look at the very large Gyeshu province. It is the sort of big province that includes a lot of sparsely inhabited lands, but it also includes one fairly important tibetan kingdom Nangqen, also known as the 25 tribes of Yushu. This state is also considered part of Kham but like all these regions borders are porous. While I would prefer to keep Gyeshu with Kham, it's not entirely impossible to put the province in a Hor state that I consider plausible.

Personally I would like Powo and Hor to become states in their own rights, but I can understand that compromises might be necessary and merging them or including Gyeshu in the state is also plausible option. Throwing in an extra province in such a huge area could aslo be a plausible option to help sort out these border areas better.


For a final peripheral area to look at, we have the Naxi Jang kingdom based in the Ming province of Lijang. The Naxi king were for a long time a tusi (local ruler) for the Ming but ruled his state fairly independently and conquered parts of southern Kham (gyelthang kingdom). This could be it's own kingdom aswell, though not that important. More notabl the Lijiang area is inhabited by tibetans and Naxi people following tibetan buddhism so the province should at least change religion to Vajrayana.
 
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They renamed U-Tsang to Tsang and gave them their historical capitol of Shigatse, while Phagmodrupa was renamed U! I've regained my faith in the suggestion forum :)

I still think, a few, very quick fixes could be done without any extensive work (hoping for a proper update to Kham and Amdo for later)

But Lhasa (as I quoted in OP) should not be in the hands of Tsang, but rather U. Nyingchi and Nagchu are pretty much up for grabs between U, Tsang and Kham

Bhutan could be made independent from start, if it'd be helpful to balancing the region.

Let's cross fingers for a proper Ladakh update aswell
 

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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the areas for U and Tsang are still swapped in 1.26:
You're absolutly right, I forgot this is an issue in current version, should only be a minutes work for @neondt to switch the names around in location, or copy and move the province names in the area.txt file

Interestingly we can also see that Ladakh has been split in two provinces, I did not realise they've done that as they didn't post any pictures of Ladakh, but looking at one of the odler dev diaries it's possible to see the new border in the corner of the image
 

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So I wanted to play tibet, and since there are no tibetan achievments I don't need to play ironman and can wipe up a new tibetan map for that.

20180910215818_1.jpg

I could have done a little bit more detailed rework but I choice to keep it simple.

Let's look at western tibet:

20180910215843_1.jpg

Gilgit is now a country ruled by Tora Khan and it also includes Baltistan (so Baltistan renamed Gilgit and Skardu renamed Baltistan) Ladakh got a new province, Zanskar.
I made the culture of Baltistan, Ladakh and Zanskar tibetan and made a seperate area for them (still within Hindustan region). For estetic reasons I didn't include Spiti and Lahul in the Zanskar province, as it does anyway give the access between Kangra and Ngari I wanted.

Possibilities for extra provinces are: Lahul and spiti province, Purig province, Hunza and nagar province.

20180910215855_1.jpg

The small Mustang kingdom I made as a province of Ngari with high starting autonomy (could also have been it's own kingdom. Renamed the province of Purig to Mangyul as the province does not contain the city of Purang and it more or less corresponds to the kingdom of Mangyul. Shifted development from Mangyul to Ngari.


20180910215903_1.jpg

For central tibet, I let U have Nyingtri and Nagchu. Both provinces were technically independent but for balance and estetic reasons I gave them to U with increased autonomy. I also made Bhutan independent as a tribal state.
Also correcting area names with Tsang in the west and U in the east, however letting Damxung stay in Tsang.

Lhasa now got a lvl 1 center of trade

20180910215916_1.jpg

I reworked that wasteland called Hengduan mountains. it's a very strange case as it covers an important trade route, and the major city of Tachienu/Dartsendo/Kangding was located in that wasteland, also Chakla kingdom, Jincuan valleys...a lot of history locked away. I made it a province called Chakla after the dominant kingdom and a lvl 1 center of trade. Also new province for Muli kingdom. New area called Hengduan in southeastern Kham

I have had some issues with countries, atm I think Kham is too large, but the only really appropriate splits I can make are sort of OPM's or merging the OPM's together. Or just really arbiltarily dividing the region, since anyway every province would contain several small more or less independent states.
Chakla could definitly be independent (probably called Gyelrong to keep consistancy by naming states after area).

Also made Lijiang vajrayana (representing Naxi people) and the rest of the bai provinces are now mahayana

20180910215929_1.jpg

AMdo was a bit hard to draw, and I don't think it looks partivularly nice estetically atm but the principle still stand. The vast western part of Rebgong have become a new province, Gormud (later on the base for upper mongol). Remaining Rebgong province has also been split with a new Golok province. The chinese province of Taozhu is now tibetan and called Chone, the capitol of the new Amdo state which also taken Songqu from Ming.

Area wise Gyeshu has been moved to ham area (it's sort of 'disputed' but most oftenly placed in Kham), with amdo now taking Songqu and Chone. A new area in the north, Koko nur, now covers the sarig yogir provinces, Xining and Gormud

This is just drawn on approximation, I am not good at doing this.
Tibet could be made even more complex but I feel this is about enough. It mainly fixes some discrepencies and adds provinces with relevant history.
At some point I also believe tibetans should get a reworked idea set as the current one is sort of random tibet related things. either do one like nepal with tibetan minor and unified tibetan ideas. or create seperate ideas for more of the tibetan countries. It's weird that Kham or Amdo get potala palace as an idea and have nothing relating to their own distinct history and culture

@neondt
 
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let's look at the southern himalaya area:

A while back in passing in a thread about something completly else I mentioned that Nepal wasn't united until much later, which upon trin asked me to look about the name of the nepali provinces, Nepal was such a myriad of small kingdoms there is a hard call on how to deal with it, something Trin did very well in the 1.26 patch! There are however a few topics I want to adress:

Culture: the culture set up in nepal, Sikkim and Jammu and Kashmir (and to some extent the provinces themselves) are based in very late nations, i.e. Nepal that didn't exist until late 18th century and Jammu & Kashmir which didn't exist until mid 19th century. I've made some suggestion to the jammu and kashmir area in this thread and another new thread I made, focusing on the Ladakh-Gilgit-Baltistan area.

I will in this thread except culture, also adress the issue of mountaineous wasteland between tibet and nepal:


20180922234304_1.jpg


I checked a few list on mountainpasses in the himalayas https://www.playquiz2win.com/tothepoint/gk/passes-in-himalayas.html http://www.mindmapcharts.com/index.php/gk/geography/502-important-passes-in-himalayas
nd comparedto the historical invasions of tibet I could find. Curiously enough almost all invasions from indian, nepali and british colonials happend through Sikkim, though I later discovered the existence of a handfull of passes through the area, I haven't managed to find out how often they were used or how accessable they are, so I tried adding a thin wasteland to the area (considering how many strange wastelands there are at other places in the world this wouldn't be a radical one either)
I did also find several mountain passes between western Tibet and india, in the indian states of Uttarakhan and Himachal Pradesh, but haven't added any of them since they're very remote, but in the future if I continue working with those provinces I might upen up more wasteland.

Now to provinces. I got around to make Mustang an independent kingdom this time. But more radically I challenged the Nepali culture in all of modern nepal+sikkim approach and created a new Kirati culture
20180922234337_1.jpg

Covering the Mewars of Kathmandu, the Kirati/Kiranti proper in easter nepal and Sikkim (because Sikkim is already nepali) Kirati is in the tibetan culture group, but have nepali princedom ideas and can form Nepal. Forming Nepal will not changed primary culture, but the capitol will change to ROOT culture (meaning if Ghorka or other nepali princedom forms nepal Kathmandu will culture shift to nepali culture)

An area of much more tentative change is the Arunachdal Pradesh wasteland. I opened it up in part and made two new provinces, Monyul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monpa_people home to Monpa people, and Lhoyu.
Historical overview of Arunachal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arunachal_Pradesh#Early_history
Sothern Arunachal is under the Sutiya kings (the base map is already drawn to incorporate core Sutiya forts in the Sutiya and Assam provinces. The Tawang area come under some point at be dominated by Tibet. With large swathes being fairly isolated tribes.

I'm pretty confident in the validity of the Monyul province, it provides accurate access between tibet and india, is a territory which would be under tibetan political control and cultural influence.

For the eastern province, Lhoyu, I'm less confident on. Lhoyu as a name I found from CKII and then did some researched on the Lhoba people which are the modern rendition of the name and other tribes of Arunachal. Here comes some difficulty in asserting a clear history and also clear boundaries, as Lokhba people inhabited both sides of the McCahon line (internationally recognized border between India and China)

For Arunachal and eastern Bhutan I go with the new tibetan culture Monpa. This is a collective term for non tibetan indigenous groups in bhutan, arunachal and southern tibet.
Still to this day the majority languages of eastern tibet is not bhutanese tibetan but various indigenous languages. I still don't know when tibetan dialects came to be dominant in western Bhutan, but for now I have the Thimpu province with tibetan culture still.


I feel less finished with this part of the suggestion than I would want to be with regards to Arunachal. Time avaible before the poland update expires my mod, I will see if I can still improve on this area and maybe continue tinkering with the rest of the greater himalaya region now when I have this mod, and once Poland rolles in I'll retire from this project.
 

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I've spent a crazy amount of time researching and writing about tibet, and that's one of the things I love about this game; it enspires me and motivates me, it helps me discover new areas to be interested in. But now my tibet chapter is almost over, just like I probably never make another caucasus post, after 1st of october I probably never make another tibet post (Finally, the developers at PDX exclaims). I feel almost complete with my tibet suggestion aswell, there are still some minor things I will look into, and while I haven't adressed events or NI's much in my threads it's sort of not my field to make suggestions in more than "hey base an even on this". Making suggestion or even research for tibet isn't easy either, now I'm updating this thread with my new map changes to the greater Kham region, which I in the end are pretty happy about.

20180925193136_1.jpg
20180925193125_1.jpg


I already talked about Gyelrong and Hor as possible states but now I can also show them off. Gyelrong becomes a two province state, controlling Chakla which incorporates the Chakla kingdom centered on Dartsedo/Tachienlu/Kanding, and includes the nomadic Minyaks and probably some other qiangic states. Their northern province is simply named Gyelrong, and I propose using Jinchuan as the chinese dynamic names after the Jinchuan valeys, site of the blood Jinchuan wars. Province covers many small gyelrong kingdoms.

Kham get's a new province, Zoyul, straddling the border to arunachdal, opening up a new connection point along the Diphu passage.

In the west I came up with an idea for the Hor tribes that I do like after quite some bickering. I divide Nyingchi in two, the southern part remaining with U (though increased autonomy representing the Powo kings). The northern half is a new province, part of the new Hor state and area. My main source for Hor is an article I found on Jstor and an article on the history of Nagqu http://www.tibetguru.com/nagqu/history/
In my Hor state I also incorporate two other tibetan polities, which are occasionaly lumped together with the Hor by chinese officials and lived similiar lives. The Nangchen kingdom (also a new province) and the Gyeshu/Yushu tribes. I consider this division fitting and the way eastern tibet plays out now, rom one big country controling it all to 4 countries fighting it out. I will encourage a lot of difficult NI's like hostile core creation, attrition and defensivness for these states. I also went ahead and split cultures:
20180925194532_1.jpg

Updated requirments for tibetan ideas, missions and decisions for this, but also strongly encourage more unique NI's for tibetan states

I think this should be tied in to encouraging AI to conquer vassals, as that's often what was done in these sort of places, for countries which have tribal monarchy and takes reforms improving vassals.

I will probably do some minor changes before making one new, conclusive thread on the greater himalaya region around 1st of october. I'm not making a new thread for the sake of attention but to have a clean first post covering the whole god damn topic.

Best
/Strife
 
Final update on my map mod

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So I decided for a threadmark to show of my end result, that way I don't need to write much more. But well, all sources and arguing I done for the changes to the tibetan region are in this thread or previous thread. I'd be happy to answer any inquires. I will post my changes to the tibetan region area wise; I will not bother with reiterating the topic of my hindu kush thread, I made that in the same mod but they have their own thread. So I will make this final post akin to a patch note to go over my changes, area by area:

Ladakh area (new):
Ladakh (Ladakhi culture)
Skardu (Ladakhi culture; owner Baloristan, possibly Gilgit or Baltistan)
Zanskar (new province; ladakhi culture; owner Ladakh)

Ngari area:
Changed name on Prig to Mangyul, shifted development from Mangyul to Guge.
New province: Mustang, owned by it's own tag, tibetan culture

Tsang area (previously U area):
Switched name so this area is correctly named Tsang and not U.

New wasteland (Khumu) between nepal and parts of Tsang

U area (previously Tsang area):
Switched names so this area is correctly named U and not Tsang,
Removed Nagchu province from area.
Changed ownership of Lhasa and Nyingchi to U
Lhasa has lvl 1 COT

Bhutan area:
Bhutan now starts independent controling Thimpu and Punakah
Punakah has Monpa culture (new culture in tibetan group)

Arunachal area (new area):
Monyul (Monpa culture; owned by U)
Lhoyu (Monpa culture; owned by Sadiya)
Zoyul (Monpa culture; owned by Kham)

Hor area (new area):
New tag: Hor
Nagchu (Khampa culture; owned by Hor)
Nubhor (new province, Khampa culture; owned by Hor)
Nangchen (new province, Khampa culture; owned by Hor)
Gyegu (Khampa culture; owned by Hor)

Kham area:
Chamdo
Markam
Dege
All provinces has Khampa culture; ownership unchanged

Hengduan area (new area):
New tag: Gyelrong
Lithang (reworked Tachienlu province, removed CoT)
Garze
Muli (new province, Khampa culture; owned by Kham)
Chakla (reworked Hengduan wasteland, got Tachienls CoT; Owned by Gyelrong)
Gyelrong (new province; owned by Gyelrong)
All provinces in area has Khampa culture

Amdo area:
New tag: Amdo
Choné (reworked Taozhou provinces, lvl 1 CoT, Amdowa culture; owned by Amdo)
Golok (New province, Amdowa culture; owned by Amdo)
Rebgong (heavily redrawn province; Amdowa culture; owned by Amdo)
Songqu (Amdowa culture; owned by Amdo)

Koko Nur area:
Gormud (new province, Amdowa culture; owned by Amdo
Tsaidam province
Anding province
Xining province

Yun-Gui frontier and hinterland areas:
New tag: Nakhi
Lijiang (Vajrayana religion; owned by Nakhi)
All remaining provinces with Bai culture now follows the Mahayana faith.

While it won't show in my maps, I suggest tibetan culture are renamed Bödpa

Decisions:
Tibet can now be formed by countries in with the following cultures: Tibetan/Bödpa, Amdowa, Ladakhi, Khampa

Decision to form Tibet now requires the provinces of Lhasa, Rebgong and Dege

20180929194011_1.jpg
20180929194030_1.jpg
20180929194039_1.jpg
20180930123652_1.jpg
20180930123727_1.jpg
 

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There are still two cities called Skardu in patch 1.27...