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ozfighter

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Mar 4, 2014
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How is it that Nomads/Republics/Tribal aren't playable yet. (Yes i realise tribal is actually playable, but in effect it plays no different to feudal.)

Why is paradox continually releasing DLC that just spams you with events instead of meaningful gameplay or mechanics changes.
 
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Because that has been their focus so far.

I don't know what you want others to tell you. They announced that the focus will shift from events and RP heavy stuff towards mechanics in the upcoming year. Although I would say that Fate of Iberia (and the upcoming Persian DLC) added a nice mechanic.
 
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Because that has been their focus so far.
Do you really think that focusing on features 30% or less of players will utilise is actually benefitting the game?

I want the devs of ck2 working on ck3, they kept the game engaging for well over 10 years. I honestly cant pick up ck3 again because its utterly bland. I have gone back to ck2.
 
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I want the devs of ck2 working on ck3, they kept the game engaging for well over 10 years. I honestly cant pick up ck3 again because its utterly bland. I have gone back to ck2.
Good for you then, enjoy the games you like. Don't force yourself into playing it if you don't like it.

Both games have their unique qualities, and I often switch between playing CK3 and CK2, often abandoning campaigns in both. I find myself thinking, "man if I were playing CK3 I could merge these cultures," and then when I play CK3, I think, "man if I were playing CK2, I could use missionaries to convert their realm." It's just a continuous cycle of these thoughts making me drop both games in the middle of campaigns.

Do you really think that focusing on features 30% or less of players will utilise is actually benefitting the game?
Ehh, peace time content will always benefit the game, especially in one that has warfare as a gameplay loop for a lot of people. I and most of my friends that play CK3 use Activities all the time for peace time stuff, changing our gameplay loop to do some actual peace time content instead of being at war all the time since Activities gives so much stuff, probably why they made their rewards so good in the first place. I don't use Royal court that much though which is probably what you're talking about.
 
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Do you really think that focusing on features 30% or less of players will utilise is actually benefitting the game?

I want the devs of ck2 working on ck3, they kept the game engaging for well over 10 years. I honestly cant pick up ck3 again because its utterly bland. I have gone back to ck2.
Yes and don't forget the completly passive AI in CK3, the AI in CK3 is so passive, that the AI has stopped to arrange Marriages for themself or their Childs(if they have some).

The Devs should focus on the AI for now, because the Game becomes trivial easy for Players and the AI still struggles to even keep their Realm together.
 
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How is it that Nomads/Republics/Tribal aren't playable yet.
Because the CK2 implementations were adjudged too terrible to retain (like a number of other things, such as regencies which we have recently received an implementation of that is much more interesting than CK2's), and other things have been given priority.

And there have been significant mechanics changes.

Like, you can complain as much as you like about the events, but I'm curious to know how you'd implement "going from A to B involves going through X, Y, and Z where things of potential interest might or might not happen to you" without them.
 
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Ehh, peace time content will always benefit the game, especially in one that has warfare as a gameplay loop for a lot of people. I and most of my friends that play CK3 use Activities all the time for peace time stuff, changing our gameplay loop to do some actual peace time content instead of being at war all the time since Activities gives so much stuff, probably why they made their rewards so good in the first place. I don't use Royal court that much though which is probably what you're talking about.
Ck2 had warfare as a gameplay loop and yet they managed to keep players involved without the need for convoluted semi cut-scenes. How? Each Religion/Ethnicity/Government was unique. It felt completely different playing Zorastrianism to Islam or Christianity... now... they're all exactly the same thing just with a different name and several perks the player can change on a whim. Or just invent a new one if they so like.

Same thing with ethnicities, it was completely unique playing as an Indian faction regardless of what religion you were, as opposed to Western European. Now... you just invent a culture. While that sounds like endless replay-ability all the options are as bland as the base cultures anyways.

Needless to say Ck3 doesn't even have any different government structures to play with so its not even worth comparison.

I really disagree with their game design and I'm not satisfied with having flavour packs dressed up as mechanic changes like struggle for Iberia. Tell me why anyone would actually enjoy spending in game assets to click text boxes they dont even read for the next 30 seconds. Not intuitive gameplay, no way.
 
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Because the CK2 implementations were adjudged too terrible to retain
Are you telling me they couldn't retain The Old Gods from ck2 because it was too difficult to implement?

I know they released ck3 without it, sure. What they ended up replacing it with is identical to ck2.

And there have been significant mechanics changes.

Like what?
 
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Because the CK2 implementations were adjudged too terrible to retain (like a number of other things, such as regencies which we have recently received an implementation of that is much more interesting than CK2's), and other things have been given priority.
And still no Customizable Notifications Settings, something which the Victoria 3 Devs have added very quickly after the Release of Victoria 3, where the CK3 Devs need more than 3 Years for it.

The same is true for the Music Player.


And another thing, the Victoria 3 Devs recently added the Option, to completly customize the Map and added a Day/Night Cycle, which is not connected to the In-Game Time.

I am going to think, that the Victoria 3 Devs have a lot more Passion for their Game, then the CK3 Devs.



And don't forget the countless amounts of Bugs in the Game, like AI not marrying anyone or Characters are able to get more than 4 Personality Traits, because of a buggy Event in F&F.
And the Bug that, over 50% of Mayors in Europe being Females in Male-dominated Faiths(which does not allow to grant (Temporal) Titles to Women.
(Because I am in the opinion, if a Faith doesn't allows an Player to grant a (Temporal) Title to an Women, the Game should not be able to do this).
 
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I know they released ck3 without it, sure. What they ended up replacing it with is identical to ck2.
I strongly disagree. Any feature brought over from CK2 has been improved upon or made more complex when applicable.

----

I personally do not get the hype of making CK3 into CK2 when they could instead use their resources to innovate the game. We've never had location-sensitive traveling before. CK2 could never.

It is clear that Royal Court (and to some extent Northern Lords, Fate of Iberia, and Friends & Foes) was plagued by some sort of identity crisis in the dev team. They had a lot of new staff that needed to get familiar with the system, they hadn't really yet developed how events and things ought to be coded together, there were fewer routines around triggers, etc. etc. That's all fair criticism, it's an objective fact of game development history for CK3 and it's also one of many explanations as to why the content might be lacking in some aspects. But all of that is in the past, Tours & Tournaments and Wards & Wardens do not share the same issues, the team is learning and is chunking out good products under a shorter timeframe.

We cannot change the past and the least effective use of your time would be to dwell on it. If you find enjoyment in playing CK2, I say go for it. I could never go back to that janky mess and in my opinion subpar graphics. All the more power to you.

I will instead use my time to look forward to what the next three years of CK3 have to offer.
 
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Yes and don't forget the completly passive AI in CK3, the AI in CK3 is so passive, that the AI has stopped to arrange Marriages for themself or their Childs(if they have some).

The Devs should focus on the AI for now, because the Game becomes trivial easy for Players and the AI still struggles to even keep their Realm together.
I agree the AI needs some work. I do like a lot of the features that have been added over time, but it feels like they exist exclusively for the player, and the AI never uses them or doesn’t ever get the chance to.

Notably, the AI warfare needs to be fixed. I noticed playing in Iberia yesterday, that an AI Castile was utterly failing to conquer southward, not because they were too weak, but because the AI doesn’t seem to understand how war works. Instead of going for the war goal, they would siege it for a few seconds, and then leave to go chase some army they just beat 10 times in a row that got too close. Eventually they lost the war because “defender controls war target” as they would never finish the seige. Often times, when playing as a vassal, I have to join my lieges wars in order to prevent them from losing what should otherwise be a decisive victory because they always seem to focus on the wrong thing.
 
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Ck2 had warfare as a gameplay loop and yet they managed to keep players involved without the need for convoluted semi cut-scenes. How? Each Religion/Ethnicity/Government was unique. It felt completely different playing Zorastrianism to Islam or Christianity... now... they're all exactly the same thing just with a different name and several perks the player can change on a whim. Or just invent a new one if they so like.

Same thing with ethnicities, it was completely unique playing as an Indian faction regardless of what religion you were, as opposed to Western European. Now... you just invent a culture. While that sounds like endless replay-ability all the options are as bland as the base cultures anyways.

Needless to say Ck3 doesn't even have any different government structures to play with so its not even worth comparison.

I really disagree with their game design and I'm not satisfied with having flavour packs dressed up as mechanic changes like struggle for Iberia. Tell me why anyone would actually enjoy spending in game assets to click text boxes they dont even read for the next 30 seconds. Not intuitive gameplay, no way.
I'd like to push back on the idea that ethnicities and cultures feel more different in CK2 than they do in CK3. In CK2 they were extremely barebones, with one or two extra perks for very few select cultures that were static and unchangeable while most had nothing that made them distinct or exclusive when compared to other cultures. Not only does each culture in CK3 have its own tenets that make them much more unique than they were in CK2, the ability to form hybrid cultures and diverge to create a new culture entirely are a massive step up from the previous game and is something that fans have been asking for in every Paradox game since time immemorial. Add onto this a language system that damages your relations with other characters if you can't actually speak to them and you've got what I think is the best way of representing cultures in any Paradox Grand Strategy title.
 
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And still no Customizable Notifications Settings, something which the Victoria 3 Devs have added very quickly after the Release of Victoria 3, where the CK3 Devs need more than 3 Years for it.

The same is true for the Music Player.

And another thing, the Victoria 3 Devs recently added the Option, to completly customize the Map and added a Day/Night Cycle, which is not connected to the In-Game Time.

I am going to think, that the Victoria 3 Devs have a lot more Passion for their Game, then the CK3 Devs.
That's a pretty bold thing to say; concluding that CK3 devs have less passion than V3 because they added message settings, a music player, and day/night cycle faster. Just seems a tad disrespectful to both teams. Here's a dev post about it, I guess.
I wasn't on CK3 when the decision was originally made, but AFAIK it just wasn't thought to be that important to too many people. I'm unsure how good the reasoning was there: equal chance that it was just downprioritised because it was thought to be lesser used, or that we actually had a look at CK2's telemetry and saw that it genuinely wasn't oft touched.

:p Now, in these enlightened days of the campaign for customisable feed notifications being the single most organised consumer advocacy campaign in the greater CK3 sphere, that's pretty clear shown to be false either way, so it's something of a moot point. Atm, it's on our radar, it's something we'd like to have, but it's not free to add. It got pushed out of the limelight for EP2 repeatedly because there was a lot of UX and Design work in Tours & Tournaments, so there just wasn't ever a time where it was practical to consider it.

We've talked about it since (and towards the end of the last DLC, as things were wrapping up), and, at last check, I believe it's currently in a large bucket labelled "Stuff Wot We Can Steal From V3".
 
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And still no Customizable Notifications Settings, something which the Victoria 3 Devs have added very quickly after the Release of Victoria 3, where the CK3 Devs need more than 3 Years for it.
I'm genuinely surprised how little that omission has annoyed me in V3 or CK3.


And another thing, the Victoria 3 Devs recently added the Option, to completly customize the Map and added a Day/Night Cycle, which is not connected to the In-Game Time.
And which some people are kicking up a right stink about, because it has the sun rising in the west and Paradox basically went "sorry our bad, can't fix it because it'll look worse".
 
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I strongly disagree. Any feature brought over from CK2 has been improved upon or made more complex when applicable.

----

I personally do not get the hype of making CK3 into CK2 when they could instead use their resources to innovate the game. We've never had location-sensitive traveling before. CK2 could never.

It is clear that Royal Court (and to some extent Northern Lords, Fate of Iberia, and Friends & Foes) was plagued by some sort of identity crisis in the dev team. They had a lot of new staff that needed to get familiar with the system, they hadn't really yet developed how events and things ought to be coded together, there were fewer routines around triggers, etc. etc. That's all fair criticism, it's an objective fact of game development history for CK3 and it's also one of many explanations as to why the content might be lacking in some aspects. But all of that is in the past, Tours & Tournaments and Wards & Wardens do not share the same issues, the team is learning and is chunking out good products under a shorter timeframe.

We cannot change the past and the least effective use of your time would be to dwell on it. If you find enjoyment in playing CK2, I say go for it. I could never go back to that janky mess and in my opinion subpar graphics. All the more power to you.

I will instead use my time to look forward to what the next three years of CK3 have to offer.
I agree the AI needs some work. I do like a lot of the features that have been added over time, but it feels like they exist exclusively for the player, and the AI never uses them or doesn’t ever get the chance to.

Notably, the AI warfare needs to be fixed. I noticed playing in Iberia yesterday, that an AI Castile was utterly failing to conquer southward, not because they were too weak, but because the AI doesn’t seem to understand how war works. Instead of going for the war goal, they would siege it for a few seconds, and then leave to go chase some army they just beat 10 times in a row that got too close. Eventually they lost the war because “defender controls war target” as they would never finish the seige. Often times, when playing as a vassal, I have to join my lieges wars in order to prevent them from losing what should otherwise be a decisive victory because they always seem to focus on the wrong thing.
I'm not a big fan of such categorical statements as "Any feature brought over from CK2 has been improved upon or made more complex when applicable" - that is clearly not the case. @non-entity gives some examples of features that work worse in CK3 than CK2.

I also don't think anyone is trying to "mak[e] CK3 into CK2," but some people think CK2 was better than CK3, or at least did enough things better that it matters.

I'm happy you have a positive view of the future for CK3, though @Voy, and that you believe that things will only improve from here. I hope you are correct about this. :)
 
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Ck2 had warfare as a gameplay loop and yet they managed to keep players involved without the need for convoluted semi cut-scenes. How? Each Religion/Ethnicity/Government was unique. It felt completely different playing Zorastrianism to Islam or Christianity... now... they're all exactly the same thing just with a different name and several perks the player can change on a whim. Or just invent a new one if they so like.

Same thing with ethnicities, it was completely unique playing as an Indian faction regardless of what religion you were, as opposed to Western European. Now... you just invent a culture. While that sounds like endless replay-ability all the options are as bland as the base cultures anyways.

Needless to say Ck3 doesn't even have any different government structures to play with so its not even worth comparison.

I really disagree with their game design and I'm not satisfied with having flavour packs dressed up as mechanic changes like struggle for Iberia. Tell me why anyone would actually enjoy spending in game assets to click text boxes they dont even read for the next 30 seconds. Not intuitive gameplay, no way.
I'd like to push back on the idea that ethnicities and cultures feel more different in CK2 than they do in CK3. In CK2 they were extremely barebones, with one or two extra perks for very few select cultures that were static and unchangeable while most had nothing that made them distinct or exclusive when compared to other cultures. Not only does each culture in CK3 have its own tenets that make them much more unique than they were in CK2, the ability to form hybrid cultures and diverge to create a new culture entirely are a massive step up from the previous game and is something that fans have been asking for in every Paradox game since time immemorial. Add onto this a language system that damages your relations with other characters if you can't actually speak to them and you've got what I think is the best way of representing cultures in any Paradox Grand Strategy title.
I'm inclined to agree about the cultures - while CK3 cultures were useless before the "culture rework" that came with Royal Court, now it is an excellent system that is lots of fun, and has a real effect on gameplay. Clearly superior to CK2 in that regard, I'd say - culture in CK2 was often just a raiding on/off trigger, though some cultures did have fun flavor events.

However, I also agree that playing in different areas felt a lot more different in CK2 vs in CK3. I attribute this more to religion and other mechanics than to culture, though.




I'm genuinely surprised how little that omission has annoyed me in V3 or CK3.
The lack of message settings is, in my opinion, the single greatest problem with CK3. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. :)




And which some people are kicking up a right stink about, because it has the sun rising in the west and Paradox basically went "sorry our bad, can't fix it because it'll look worse".
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here - are you saying that the player base is making silly complaints, or that Paradox messed up by making the sun rise on the wrong side of the map? Or perhaps both?
 
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I'd like to push back on the idea that ethnicities and cultures feel more different in CK2 than they do in CK3. In CK2 they were extremely barebones, with one or two extra perks for very few select cultures that were static and unchangeable while most had nothing that made them distinct or exclusive when compared to other cultures. Not only does each culture in CK3 have its own tenets that make them much more unique than they were in CK2, the ability to form hybrid cultures and diverge to create a new culture entirely are a massive step up from the previous game and is something that fans have been asking for in every Paradox game since time immemorial. Add onto this a language system that damages your relations with other characters if you can't actually speak to them and you've got what I think is the best way of representing cultures in any Paradox Grand Strategy title.
You're focusing way too much on the cultures themselves. Sure if you took a Bengali and put them in England with Catholic faith they wouldn't play any different but different parts of the map played differently.

A Bengali in Bengal is likely of an Eastern religion whom have unique mechanics both from each other and other religion groups, they'll have access to the silk road and Chinese empire mechanics, they'll have to contend with unlanded Muslim adventurers invading the Indian subcontinent, there will be many unique events and many existing events have their text and art adjusted to better fit the region

^above all refers to CK2
 
I also don't think anyone is trying to "mak[e] CK3 into CK2,"
The number of people who say "just drag my favourite feature from CK2 unchanged into CK3" or "give me back the CK2 version of this CK3 feature" is, at the very least, noisy and varied.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here - are you saying that the player base is making silly complaints, or that Paradox messed up by making the sun rise on the wrong side of the map? Or perhaps both?
Mostly that citing the day/night cycle in Vic3 in support of criticism of CK3 is... not a compelling line of argument.
 
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You're focusing way too much on the cultures themselves. Sure if you took a Bengali and put them in England with Catholic faith they wouldn't play any different but different parts of the map played differently.

A Bengali in Bengal is likely of an Eastern religion whom have unique mechanics both from each other and other religion groups, they'll have access to the silk road and Chinese empire mechanics, they'll have to contend with unlanded Muslim adventurers invading the Indian subcontinent, there will be many unique events and many existing events have their text and art adjusted to better fit the region

^above all refers to CK2
I'm not denying that, the person I was replying to was making the claim that "...it was completely unique playing as an Indian faction regardless of what religion you were..." which I didn't agree with.
 
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The number of people who say "just drag my favourite feature from CK2 unchanged into CK3" or "give me back the CK2 version of this CK3 feature" is, at the very least, noisy and varied.
I don't think it's very fair to say that wanting some features from CK2 implemented that people find is lacking in CK3 (or is in CK3, but people find worse) is the same as saying they want to turn the game into CK2, though.




Mostly that citing the day/night cycle in Vic3 in support of criticism of CK3 is... not a compelling line of argument.
I think they were trying to make the point that the Victoria 3 team is more active in making improvements than the CK3 team is, but perhaps I misunderstood him.
 
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