Three reasons why Granada deserves more love than Byzantium!

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Raveled

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It would be very interesting to see Grenadian cores all thoughout Iberia, and maybe a special event to reform the Iberian caliphate or at least different names for Leon, Galicia, etc when they're majority/state Islam (similar to some of the ones that exist in CK2!)
 
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Maybe the solution is just a whole lot more cores at game start? Although that would definitely lead to some illogical rebel issues....
But yes, support for more alternate history ideas would be amazing! So many unique possibilities, and there could definitely be some inspiration from CK2 stuff!
 
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So, to me it is pretty clear that Granada ought to be much more venerated than Byzantium. I shall elaborate on why this is the case.

However, Byzantium is nothing but a perfidious try to restore a corrupted and long gone empire, which deserves nothing but to be destroyed by the teeth of time.

BOOOO¡ BOOOOOOOOO¡ Down with him¡

Ps. ;)
 
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IMO Madurai is underappreciated as a similar endeavor to Granada or Byzantium. The Pandyas easily the oldest dynasty in the game (perhaps with the exception of the Katochs?) at the start and has been reduced to just an opm at the southern tip of India that doesnt even control its old capital (though they do start with a bunch of cores on Vijayanagar.
 
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IMO Madurai is underappreciated as a similar endeavor to Granada or Byzantium. The Pandyas easily the oldest dynasty in the game (perhaps with the exception of the Katochs?) at the start and has been reduced to just an opm at the southern tip of India that doesnt even control its old capital (though they do start with a bunch of cores on Vijayanagar.

They are not as well known to the west, and their achievements are cannibalized in the regional positioning (Ceylon) and "can play any other nation you want here" (Sun never sets) sense. They don't have unique ideas or anything other than their history to go on, which is a contrast to Granada and BYZ which have specific achievements and more unique positioning/alliance potential/ideas/flavor events.

I don't think you can do anything about Rome fanboyism, but there's a reason Granada also gets more strategy discussion by a solid margin.
 
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AndreasPhokas

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Yeah I remember seeing Madurai and going woah the pandyas o.o same thing with katoch india has a fascinating history as well (The resistance of mewar and the chola empire being up there, as well as a Maratha revolt)

Id really love to see a stronger or more important Maratha revolt in some form.

Also I love Byzantium but Granada is very unique as well.
 
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Grand Historian

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Firstly, Granada has better ideas than the Byzantine ones. They contain three of the most monarch point-saving ideas of the whole game: Lower core, tech and idea costs. This makes it pretty clear that no idea set can rival them.

Better ideas does not equate to deserving more flavor (though one could make the argument that better ideas are flavor). Albania's Ideas are incredible, and their flavor is limited to how fast they disappear. Inversely, Naples ideas are a parody of themselves and they a decent amount of flavor. Would I like to see Granada get an event or two? Sure, but National Ideas doesn't equate to being deserving of flavor.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Byzantine NI's restructured to include Core Cost, though, as they've had so many cores stripped away from them for the sake of not sparking rebellions that it's become an inside joke.

Moreover, Granada has a sacred goal: As it's humble emir, save the poor Iberians from the instruments of the inquisition and the corrupted Roman Catholics!

-.-

Dutchman251 said:
However, Byzantium is nothing but a perfidious try to restore a corrupted and long gone empire, which deserves nothing but to be destroyed by the teeth of time.

Appealing to Jake's Byzantophobia does not actually make your argument stronger or any less of a double-standard.

Finally, playing Granada is a real challenge. It is not about employing some gamey strategies (such as ahistorically allying European majors or hiding behind galleys),

While I do agree Granada is a challenge - and, again, it can be argued that challenge is flavor in of itself - as is Byzantium regardless of gamey strategies, historically Byzantium did rely on their navy and European powers to bail them out on multiple occasions.

but about taking your chance in the pan-Iberian-Navarran war, and being backed only by your natural allies in the mountains of Northern Africa, trying to get colonial returns and fighting the most powerful nation of western Europe (do that in Navarra).

Granada does indeed have a great more deal of strategies to use than Byzantium - and, again, it can be argued that this is flavor in of itself.

I hope I could convince you! Also on the fact that Granada needs some dynamic ahistorical events and missions like Byzantium!

Getting an event or two that rewards you for retaking Cordoba and Toledo would indeed be nice and a good way to reward you for your hard work beyond restoring Al-Andalus, and maybe some sprites for Granada sometime down the road, but much more than that would be resources better spent in other parts of the world more in need of flavor.
 
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IMO Madurai is underappreciated as a similar endeavor to Granada or Byzantium. The Pandyas easily the oldest dynasty in the game (perhaps with the exception of the Katochs?) at the start and has been reduced to just an opm at the southern tip of India that doesnt even control its old capital (though they do start with a bunch of cores on Vijayanagar.

In all fairness, Granada doesn't really start with their old capital, either.
 
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With no spanish to stamp them out, might the burgeoning central american empires grow too strong for the europeans to conquer, allowing them to remain well unto the modern age?
The Aztecs might not thanks to their penchant for pissing off literally everybody, but the Inca already were too powerful. As far as I know the only reason that Pizarro was successful was because the Inca were in the middle of a brutal civil war (and because he was a smooth talker, which kept his miniscule band of men from getting wiped out instantly). Had he shown up when they were stable it is extremely likely that there would still be a Quechua nation (or nations) owning at least the western side of South America.
 
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I feel a big reason Byzantium appeals to so many, more than Granada or Madurai for example, is that the majority of fans are of European descent and more familiar with stories of how badass Rome was rather than Indian dynasties or Arab glory.
 
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I think a solution we can all agree on is to remove all of Byzantium's entirely undeserved extra-special flavour, taking the resulting tears of the Byzantophiles, fermenting them into a fine alcoholic beverage, and drinking it in a toast to Ottoman, Bulgarian and Venetian glory :).
 
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new DLC: grey phoenix, dealing with Ulm's rise to dominance
 
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zeredek

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I feel a big reason Byzantium appeals to so many, more than Granada or Madurai for example, is that the majority of fans are of European descent and more familiar with stories of how badass Rome was rather than Indian dynasties or Arab glory.
Well, I don't know anything about Madurai, but the Roman Empire lasted for more than a thousand years longer than the Umayyads did, and arguably had a larger influence on the world
 
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Grand Historian

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I feel a big reason Byzantium appeals to so many, more than Granada or Madurai for example, is that the majority of fans are of European descent and more familiar with stories of how badass Rome was rather than Indian dynasties or Arab glory.

When EU5 rolls around, I'd actually like to see an 'Ancient Empires' DLC or something of the like that, while functionally similar to the Purple Phoenix, would also include events, missions and sprites Granada and Madurai (and Theodoro, because you can never sack Rome enough), but without as much coddling (and better 3/4 Tier Byz models - and maybe carry them other to Trebizond).

I think a solution we can all agree on is to remove all of Byzantium's entirely undeserved extra-special flavour, taking the resulting tears of the Byzantophiles, fermenting them into a fine alcoholic beverage, and drinking it in a toast to Ottoman, Bulgarian and Venetian glory :).

Charming.

The Aztecs might not thanks to their penchant for pissing off literally everybody, but the Inca already were too powerful. As far as I know the only reason that Pizarro was successful was because the Inca were in the middle of a brutal civil war (and because he was a smooth talker, which kept his miniscule band of men from getting wiped out instantly). Had he shown up when they were stable it is extremely likely that there would still be a Quechua nation (or nations) owning at least the western side of South America.

The superiority of Spanish technology and tactics can't be understated, but undoubtedly Pizarro wouldn't have been as successful had the Inca presented a united front.
 
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Reverend Belial

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The superiority of Spanish technology and tactics can't be understated, but undoubtedly Pizarro wouldn't have been as successful had the Inca presented a united front.
Technology definitely (although that gap would have been rapidly closed, as the brief period between Pizarro's takeover and the final fall of the Inca demonstrated what seems to me a great degree of adaptability [they adopted and fielded cavalry quick enough to actually deploy them against the Spaniards], but I would argue that there might not have been that great a gap in tactics or tactical aptitude.
 
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Oddb@ll

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I find it very, very interesting how Byzantium manages to stir up so strong feelings in people's hearts. I don't get why some are so provoked by fanboys expressing love for a minor nation in the game, often you see a need to counter with statements like "we'll X was better" or "I actually prefer Y" or simply "screw Byzantium!!!".

Fascinating.... as Spock would say.
 
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Trin Tragula

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Well, I don't know anything about Madurai, but the Roman Empire lasted for more than a thousand years longer than the Umayyads did, and arguably had a larger influence on the world

I wont argue influence but the Pandyas date back some centuries bc. That said its not really clear how closely related they are to the guys you see in India in the game. There was really a number of lords in this province (and more than one Pandya branch even).
 
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