Three reasons why Granada deserves more love than Byzantium!

[Dutchman251]

So, to me it is pretty clear that Granada ought to be much more venerated than Byzantium. I shall elaborate on why this is the case.

Firstly, Granada has better ideas than the Byzantine ones. They contain three of the most monarch point-saving ideas of the whole game: Lower core, tech and idea costs. This makes it pretty clear that no idea set can rival them.

Moreover, Granada has a sacred goal: As it's humble emir, save the poor Iberians from the instruments of the inquisition and the corrupted Roman Catholics! However, Byzantium is nothing but a perfidious try to restore a corrupted and long gone empire, which deserves nothing but to be destroyed by the teeth of time.

Finally, playing Granada is a real challenge. It is not about employing some gamey strategies (such as ahistorically allying European majors or hiding behind galleys), but about taking your chance in the pan-Iberian-Navarran war, and being backed only by your natural allies in the mountains of Northern Africa, trying to get colonial returns and fighting the most powerful nation of western Europe (do that in Navarra).

I hope I could convince you! Also on the fact that Granada needs some dynamic ahistorical events and missions like Byzantium!

 

[Raveled]

Get your Grandan (Grenadian?) AAR going and you'll get more support, but I'm always for more ahistorical stuff.

 

[theJ]

Aww... and here I thought the reasons would be fluff based...

I.E. With a successful re-reconquista, the political landscape of much of the world changes; with a sunni Iberia, how will the kingdoms of central Europe react? With Columbus gone, who knows what will become of the new world? With no spanish to stamp them out, might the burgeoning central american empires grow too strong for the europeans to conquer, allowing them to remain well unto the modern age? With Iberia still under moorish rule, would the middle eastern lands ever become the centres of learning that we know them as? The possibilities for cool alt-history scenarios are staggering - as opposed to a reborn Byzantium, which would occupy largely the same political "spot" as the ottomans do anyway.

imho, If there's one thing this game needs, it's more support for alt-history*, and tougher Moors would be a pretty nice place to start.

*By which I don't mean "just" the player-driven bits.

 

[Ameron]

Aww... and here I thought the reasons would be fluff based...

I.E. With a successful re-reconquista, the political landscape of much of the world changes; with a sunni Iberia, how will the kingdoms of central Europe react? With Columbus gone, who knows what will become of the new world? With no spanish to stamp them out, might the burgeoning central american empires grow too strong for the europeans to conquer, allowing them to remain well unto the modern age? With Iberia still under moorish rule, would the middle eastern lands ever become the centres of learning that we know them as? The possibilities for cool alt-history scenarios are staggering - as opposed to a reborn Byzantium, which would occupy largely the same political "spot" as the ottomans do anyway.

imho, If there's one thing this game needs, it's more support for alt-history*, and tougher Moors would be a pretty nice place to start.

*By which I don't mean "just" the player-driven bits.

IMHO it's likely that a moorish Iberia would colonize anyway. It's still the best "launching spot" in Europe to do so.

 

[Sian]

imho, If there's one thing this game needs, it's more support for alt-history*, and tougher Moors would be a pretty nice place to start.

I'd like Sunset Invasion nowhere near my game, thank you very much

 

[Retrograde]

I've been involved with historical communities online for like seven years now, and the one thing they all have in common is a massive hard-on for Byzantium. I agree with OP that the Islamic world has a huge amount of flavour and culture that isnt explored enough in Paradox games.

 

[Oddb@ll]

Meh. Byz is still cooler

 

[Kapi96]

eh, nothing beats the legacy of the Roman empire and attempts to restore it to former glories

 

[Ratanka]

granada also wanna restore the corrupted bad emirat of kordoba ... they already had nearly all of liberia in the past and lost it ... like byzantium
but they are all heithens, not worth our love
byzantium the past and future of the roman empire, there before even islam was founded.
and u tell me its "ahistorical gamey" stuff to get help from poland vs ottomans ?
no one helped grenada they got crushed, if u get any ally its "ahistorical" xD
the only historical way of playing grenada is getting crushed

but all aside, there are archievments for grenada u cant say that for everyone, and i think its more love into grenada then needed, no need for more, its not like its the former biggest empire of the world

 

[DDRJake]

I love Granada, but any Andalusian knows they don't need a Byz-level of coddling to succeed.

 

[Freudia]

byzantium the past and future of the roman empire, there before even islam was founded.its not like its the former biggest empire of the world

If you're bringing up the whole 'former biggest empire of the world' line because you're under the impression the Roman Empire was the largest empire of the world, well, I have some bad news for you.

If not, then carry on.

 

[Ameron]

If you're bringing up the whole 'former biggest empire of the world' line because you're under the impression the Roman Empire was the largest empire of the world, well, I have some bad news for you.

If not, then carry on.

In that list, Roman Empire stands proudly third for population, with Ummayyad Caliphate down in sixth place.

 

[Freudia]

In that list, Roman Empire stands proudly third for population, with Ummayyad Caliphate down in sixth place.

It stands 3rd for population percentage relative to the amount of people that existed in the world at the time. If you look at the actual numbers, ruling over 70million people is notably less impressive than ruling over 458 million, 110 million, 176 million, 381 million, or so on.

 

[Ameron]

It stands 3rd for population percentage relative to the amount of people that existed in the world at the time. If you look at the actual numbers, ruling over 70million people is notably less impressive than ruling over 458 million, 110 million, 176 million, 381 million, or so on.

Roman Empire stands above Umayyad Caliphate there, too (12th vs 16th).
Also, ruling 70 million in 150 A.D. is not quite the same feat as ruling the same numbers later, when larger populations where supported by more advanced techonolgies.

 

[Freudia]

Also, ruling 70 million in 150 A.D. is not quite the same feat as ruling the same numbers later, when larger populations where supported by more advanced techonolgies.

It's true, but at the same time those same empires also happened to occupy larger total percentages of land, which, due to things like travel times and administration lag, I'd imagine comes across as a feat in its own right.

 

[caalexand]

In all honesty, they are both remnants of once-great empires that by game start had no possibility of survival. If one remnant has a lot of ahistorical flavor then so should they all
What other nations are there in a similar position? Burgundy possibly? Although it's certainly in a better spot at game start.... Ooh! That Latin Empire idea someone had for Athens, Achaea, etc.

 

[zorkman]

Britain rules.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In all honesty, they are both remnants of once-great empires that by game start had no possibility of survival. If one remnant has a lot of ahistorical flavor then so should they all

Fair point, and sort of what DDRJake was getting at wrt BYZ coddling (IIRC he never liked it, and I'm not a ran of the Rome exaggerations myself).

The starting core stuff is egregious. BYZ gets a ton compared to most nations even despite their nerfs. Where are the GH, Timurid, and Mongol cores in the 1444 start? Any measure you could possibly use to justify BYZ cores would work for those nations too, and many more for that matter (Delhi also getting shafted for example).

But by the same token, the nerfs are still inconsistent too. I can't buy that there is any cohesive design regarding this, because there's no consistent implementation. From a historical perspective it's completely nutzo that "Persia" has cores in Iran in 1444 and BYZ has theirs in Greece...but Timurids barely have any to their west. You just can't building a starting state like that and then claim any basis of choice that captures what was done. The standards themselves are a moving target.

As for Granada, considering they're in the Iberian group a strong case could be made that they should still have more cores than they do, irrespective of flavor events or other hand holding. As the primary nation of Andalusian especially, but game rule those would never have disappeared. And then Castile gets a freebie conversion/destruction of Granada like it's nothing lol.

Maybe I'm not so big on coddling nations, but that includes Castile, Muscovy etc.

 

[schondetta]

I agree on your third point . The bigoted society of the paililogians(butchered spelling on my cell) was kinda of asking for it. They inherited there acute western hatred all the way to the fourth crusade(mostly). And I understand that contempt. But they just took it too far . No wonder no one wanted to help them when the Turks took all there land picemeal

I'm the games defense. The Byzantines/Roman game is popular because of its rich history. The might of Rome is something even a 10 year old understands.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

If you're bringing up the whole 'former biggest empire of the world' line because you're under the impression the Roman Empire was the largest empire of the world, well, I have some bad news for you.

If not, then carry on.

Britain was the biggest, but the Romans were still cooler, and this is coming from a Brit. Roma invicta!