Three questions please?

[Commander666]

Well, AFAIK 6 hours is the time before orders for air missions can be executed,...

The delay time between giving a command to an air unit and it lifting off base is 2 hours - not six. (v1.08).

Where did you gather that this is the minimum duration of any (air) combat...?

I never stated any "minimum duration of any (air) combat", I said bombing and air combat in AoD can not be cancelled. It needs run until it completes.

AoD does not permit for the disengagement of aerial units until after they complete whatever controls the length of their engagement... so these combats can not cancel upon reload.

EDIT: "6 hours" relates to delay regarding acting on mission orders for land and naval units; and minimum land or naval combat time. (Naval units doing movement only have no delay, and - conversely - have 6-hour delay depending on the movement details).

 

[Commander666]

But maybe if the initial save was made on single player, then AI attacking units that are human controlled might still attack upon reload via single player - but I don't know for sure.

On single player, units you MC do not have their land combat cancelled upon reload (as just tested on v1.08 using Romanians MCed by player of Germany).

This surprises me because I have numerous memories of all my puppet troops always losing all their movement progress upon reloading game. Troops that had spent weeks progressing towards next province (as is the case in northern provinces of SU) would stop and have to start all over again if game crashed or file save was reloaded. This "loss of movement achieved" would be a major detrimental factor upon the Japanese AI effort to conquer China if German player reloads a lot. But now I am not sure if it still happens and it is somewhat difficult to test for... so I won't.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I was thinking that resume play from a saved position was identitical to opening a file save?

Loading a savegame creates a lot of issues that for good reason can be considered a bug. Creating a savegame and continuing to play the game after the savegame has been created should not cause any issues, at least if you pause the game in a timely fashion. Autosavegames at high speed may differ, but problably not.

"Resume play from a saved position" is something that i would interpret as loading a savegame, but it can also refer to not discontinuing when a "position" has just been saved as it may happen all the time.

 

[Titan79]

The delay time between giving a command to an air unit and it lifting off base is 2 hours - not six. (v1.08).

Might well be. I've been looking in an AoD folder of mine which is most likely still a 1.02 version. I simply thought I had edited it from 6 to 2 (and most likely did, since I seem to recall that the delay for air units used to be 4 hours in some patch... no time or will to check the changelogs, though).

I never stated any "minimum duration of any (air) combat", I said bombing and air combat in AoD can not be cancelled. It needs run until it completes.

EDIT: "6 hours" relates to delay regarding acting on mission orders for land and naval units; and minimum land or naval combat time. (Naval units doing movement only have no delay, and - conversely - have 6-hour delay depending on the movement details).

Fair enough, but whence comes the statement that air combat needs to complete "mandatorily" (i.e. fully), then? I.e. why there would be no "six hours rule" here, too?

 

[Commander666]

Fair enough, but whence comes the statement that air combat needs to complete "mandatorily" (i.e. fully), then? I.e. why there would be no "six hours rule" here, too?

Most air combats and bombing do last 6 hours, I believe, but it is not a minimum time like the first 6 hours of land combat. Rather the air combat time is the minimum, maximum and total time..... and importantly, player can not abort, nor extend that combat or bombing. Aerial combat length is beyond ability of player to manipulate the time. One exception exists with player setting up a continuing aerial combat time by injecting new stack of aircraft before first combat has ended.

And if you set interdiction mission for where there is no target, the aircraft will fly to that province but give zero hours of combat, so making trying to apply any "6-hour rule" to combat rather problematic... which is why I didn't mention it.

So the statement was not "mandatory" as you interpret it, but "needs run until it completes"... however AoD decides that. And further, there are uncountable instances of air combat that was so brief it was impossible to pause game fast enough to view what happened. This is usually bombing of fleets and fleet moved to new zone immediately. So the 6-hour rule doesn't really apply to air combat or bombing... at least not as an unbreakable rule like "land and naval combat need run 6 hours before they can be aborted".

Hope this fully explains your question.

 

[stevep]

Loading a savegame creates a lot of issues that for good reason can be considered a bug. Creating a savegame and continuing to play the game after the savegame has been created should not cause any issues, at least if you pause the game in a timely fashion. Autosavegames at high speed may differ, but problably not.

"Resume play from a saved position" is something that i would interpret as loading a savegame, but it can also refer to not discontinuing when a "position" has just been saved as it may happen all the time.

Pang

OK good point. With English there generally seems to be more than one interpretation for just about any phrase.

Steve

 

[Titan79]

Most air combats and bombing do last 6 hours, I believe, but it is not a minimum time like the first 6 hours of land combat. Rather the air combat time is the minimum, maximum and total time..... and importantly, player can not abort, nor extend that combat or bombing. Aerial combat length is beyond ability of player to manipulate the time. One exception exists with player setting up a continuing aerial combat time by injecting new stack of aircraft before first combat has ended.

And if you set interdiction mission for where there is no target, the aircraft will fly to that province but give zero hours of combat, so making trying to apply any "6-hour rule" to combat rather problematic... which is why I didn't mention it.

So the statement was not "mandatory" as you interpret it, but "needs run until it completes"... however AoD decides that. And further, there are uncountable instances of air combat that was so brief it was impossible to pause game fast enough to view what happened. This is usually bombing of fleets and fleet moved to new zone immediately. So the 6-hour rule doesn't really apply to air combat or bombing... at least not as an unbreakable rule like "land and naval combat need run 6 hours before they can be aborted".

Hope this fully explains your question.

Well, yes, it does to a good extent although now you've stimulated my curiosity on this matter and I'd like to better understand the mechanism(s) behind air combat, its duration, and the different behaviours which can be seen on it.

Maybe @Zsar1 could chime in once again and shed some more light about minimum air combat length and other subtleties related to it... who knows?

 

[Commander666]

Well, you requested that earlier but weren't answered.

As regards your wish, "shed some more light about minimum air combat length and other subtleties related to it" I don't think you'll get a more comprehensive answer than my posts which detailed:
1) two hour delay in starting mission.
2) usual 6 hour combat time or bombing time.
3) combat length subtleties or exceptions include double extended combat time, zero bombing time and extremely short bombing time.
4) air combat and bombing once started can not be aborted.
5) air combat and bombing - whether player or AI initiated - does not cancel with reload.

But as regards the "mechanics of AoD air combat" that is a different topic which I have not discussed because that is beyond the realm of board play experience. Any input from Zsar1 and others is always welcome and informative. I can only imagine that if there is none, I must have got it correct already for what we were discussing.

 

[Titan79]

Well, you requested that earlier but weren't answered.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" (C. Coolidge).

As regards your wish, "shed some more light about minimum air combat length and other subtleties related to it" I don't think you'll get a more comprehensive answer than my posts

Your posts might have been as detailed as you wish - they surely were, in many regards - but you're still not an AoD developer and have no access to the hard code. Thus, I'll always doubt the total correctness of such assumptions on game mechanics which are based solely on empirical observation, not on hard facts (pun intended).

But as regards the "mechanics of AoD air combat" that is a different topic which I have not discussed because that is beyond the realm of board play experience. Any input from Zsar1 and others is always welcome and informative. I can only imagine that if there is none, I must have got it correct already for what we were discussing.

This was, and is, exactly my main topic of interest. I find it rather amusing for you to say that's "beyond the realm of board play experience" (i.e. that you couldn't answer all my questions), yet a few lines before you claimed I would have hardly got a more comprehensive reply on the matter .

 

[Commander666]

Hope you hear from an AoD developer since you seem to just discredit my knowledge.

As regards the play mechanics I told you and summarized above:
“Doubt is an uncomfortable condition, but certainty is a ridiculous one.” - Voltaire

 

[Titan79]

Hope you hear from an AoD developer since you seem to just discredit my knowledge.

As regards the play mechanics I told you and summarized above:
“Doubt is an uncomfortable condition, but certainty is a ridiculous one.” - Voltaire

No need to be so touchy. Also, if you re-read my previous posts, you'll see that I'm not "discrediting your knowledge" at all; I wrote that your observations were interesting indeed.

Still, it stays true that you don't have access to the source code and, as such, you can't know all the technical reasons behind certain game mechanics - like in this case. It's as simple as that.

In addition, there is the not-to-be-underestimated fact that you're already proven to be not totally affordable re: AoD game rules, like in the case of radar (in a thread you started to claim that it "wasn't working", only to see pretty much all of the AoD forum come there and tell you that it worked very well indeed, and by which rules).

The point is that this is a game (more: it is a Paradox game! The difference is not so small as it might seem) and, as such, it runs by a set of rules; a mathematical one, nonetheless (it's a program). So, there can be no "doubt" about e.g. the minimum duration of a combat since there is a line somewhere in the code that instructs the game about how to behave in that circumstance. The game does not proceed by odd chance as you'd seem to surreptitiously imply (apart from the cases when something is scripted to have a % of chance, ofc).

This is why I'd like to get confirmation by someone who is - simply because of his broader access to the game's inner mechanics - more knowledgeable on the matter than you. That's all; nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Commander666]

What a tirade! Like now its very old issue of radar and Paradox at fault for you doubting that AoD aircraft have a 2-hour delay in lifting off air base. Most people would just check that.. and be done with it.

 

[Titan79]

What a tirade! Like now its very old issue of radar and Paradox at fault for you doubting that AoD aircraft have a 2-hour delay in lifting off air base. Most people would just check that.. and be done with it.

Sorry, but your post was worded in such a way that I'm not sure what you exactly meant. It matters relatively, however, since it wasn't related to the thread's topic and so we could well drop it here (that is, I'm dropping it here as there is no point in going on with this).

By the way: mine was not a tirade but the simplest way I had to motivate the reasons behind my doubts re: your explanations which, again, were rather informative, but not thoroughly. As for the radar, I chose to make but one example of why I don't find your knowledge of AoD game mechanics 100% reliable and I wanted to explain you the reasons behind that, to avoid you stating that I'm just randomly ranting or so.

Thus, this is why I'm looking for more official answers; plain and simple. I don't understand why you need to get so upset about this, just like if by doubting you one was doubting the gospels or such. I'm just expressing my mere scepticism, that's all (and you'd seem to appreciate it, given that you recently quoted Voltaire).

Also, I'd kindly ask you to please stop it here, as this is not giving any meaningful contribution to the thread anymore. I've stated my reasons, replied to you when asked about but now I'm done - all what's left from my PoV is to wait for an eventual official answer about those air combat rules. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Commander666]

I decided to drop it too since there's no point anymore.... and Christmas Eve now upon us gives me impetus to do so.

 

[Zsar1]

@Titan79 : Lesse...

• In misc.txt there is the entry _CV_AIR_MIN_COMBAT_TIME . It defines the number of (hourly) rounds since combat start (at 0) before which retreat is impossible.
• Within the first two phases, in naval combats or naval bombardments both sides will lose divisions which are at <= 0 ORG.
• After the 8th combat round, surprise modificators are cleared.
• Air-to-air combats automatically end after 4 (hourly) combat rounds.
• Combats may end prematurely ignoring all limits if one side has 0 divisions left at the end of a round.

Bombardments of non-divisions modify these rules:

• They end after 5 (hourly) combat rounds.
• They do not allow retreat.

Note that divisions may appear on the defender's side in those bombardments indirectly, e.g. based planes in airport strikes.

... That is all the rules I can find at a glance. It's a bit of spaghetti code here, so I am not 100% sure, though.

 

[stevep]

Guys


Just to update with some background and other questions. I'm currently on a 35 day cycle, 25days looking after my mum and 10 days break while I head home. Hence been using the 10 day cycle for main battles, i.e. ~June 41 on wards and the 25 days for developing a new game. Just finishing a 25 day, heading home tomorrow so started a new Russia game with somewhat different aims. Tried my old approach of more IC production with 10 IC produced for 4 cycles which means I have a base IC roughly matching Germany [currently ~1-7-40] and effective IC slightly over 400, not far behind Germany. Also been doing a lot of infra construction. Occupied Lithuania as well as Latvia and Estonia in later 1940 and also annexed Finland and released it as a puppet.


Having developed both Inf 41 and the initial Mech div at the start of the year am producing 12 lines Inf 41 and and 6 of Mech, along with a Mtn line, one for HQ and SPArt for equipping my initial Mot divisions. Am developing Small Arms and Vehicle Assembly lines as well as Advanced Computing devices and the 1st 1941 land doctrine. Planning to produce 60 Mech with possibly say 20 Arm later. The Inf lines are 12 long and hopefully won't need any more with the


On the wider front China is holding well against Japan, although they didn't overrun Manchuria like they did in the last game and the Republic has again won in Spain. France has just fallen, which meant the end of month was a suitable point to end the game. Hope to push on to war with Germany in one session when I get home then see how that goes.


Anyway, some questions:

a) One thing I haven't done is build/upgrade any air, although researching Int and Tac. Partly because in the last game the Germans never attacked my main forces by air. Only some harrisment raids on small units in provinces behind the front, which was largely by Axis minor allies. Not sure whether this was because the Germans were deterred by my front line defences, generally a minimum of 12 modern divisions and 3-4 AA units in each province or possibly they were busy handling the RAF as Britain seemed to be doing fairly well. Don't know if this is a hell of a risk but thinking I would find out.


b) How worthwhile is it trying to develop a powerful navy for a war with the western powers after the defeat of Germany? Haven't developed anything yet so would have to do a lot of work but does mean I could fairly easily change doctrine to base attack if that was more suitable. However expect that my research teams and key leaders would be way inferior to both US and UK. Note I'm talking about a possible late 40's war rather than something from ~1944 onwards.


c) I noticed in past games that when Germany and Poland are released as puppets you get the OTL 1945 borders. Is it possible to change that and if so would land given to another nation face dissent problems. For instance if I had Silesia given to Germany rather than Poland would it count as a core for Germany or Poland? Ditto possibly with Luxembourg going to Germany as its about the only point west of Germany than can be taken without continued high level dissent. [Since Belgium, the Netherlands and France still have pro-west governments in exile]. At least unless you get the chance to take out Spain.


d) If instead I'm in a position to take on Japan in China what options are available once Japan is driven from the mainland and probably forced to surrender to the US? Can I try and hang onto Manchuria or does it mean conflict with China and possibly the west? Do I have to support the communists Chinese or is continued good relations with the Nationalists practical? [Given how weak the communists are in game terms it seems unlikely that they can emulate their OTL performance and drive the Nationalists from the mainland.


Basically I've never fought a war beyond the defeat of the European Axis in ~1944 and wondering what the options are. Furthest I got in a game on v1.08 a couple of years saw me able to conquer most of mainland Europe including Iberia but then it kept crashing.


Any ideas or info most welcome please.


Steve

 

[Titan79]

@Titan79 : Lesse...

• In misc.txt there is the entry _CV_AIR_MIN_COMBAT_TIME . It defines the number of (hourly) rounds since combat start (at 0) before which retreat is impossible.
• Within the first two phases, in naval combats or naval bombardments both sides will lose divisions which are at <= 0 ORG.
• After the 8th combat round, surprise modificators are cleared.
• Air-to-air combats automatically end after 4 (hourly) combat rounds.
• Combats may end prematurely ignoring all limits if one side has 0 divisions left at the end of a round.

Bombardments of non-divisions modify these rules:

• They end after 5 (hourly) combat rounds.
• They do not allow retreat.

Note that divisions may appear on the defender's side in those bombardments indirectly, e.g. based planes in airport strikes.

... That is all the rules I can find at a glance. It's a bit of spaghetti code here, so I am not 100% sure, though.

Thank you a lot! That cleared some doubts I still had. Much appreciated.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

b) How worthwhile is it trying to develop a powerful navy for a war with the western powers after the defeat of Germany? Haven't developed anything yet so would have to do a lot of work but does mean I could fairly easily change doctrine to base attack if that was more suitable. However expect that my research teams and key leaders would be way inferior to both US and UK. Note I'm talking about a possible late 40's war rather than something from ~1944 onwards.

First off one should differ between research and construction. In the savegame the term division_development is used for production lines.

As for research one good rule of thumb might be that once maximum historic date modifier of 2.0 is reached delaying research any further makes very little sense. Unless very good reasons warrent otherwise you are best off to start researching all to be researched techs once 800 to 900 days since historic date have passed and historic date modifier is in the range from 1.8 to 1.9.

The natural approach as soviet union would seem to be to start tech rushing carrier techs in late 1941 and start production of 12+ CV1944 once possible. The CAG can be started seperatly at a later date, one might after all use accelerated production on the Carrier Vessels for antedating their completion in a relatively efficient manner and the CAG themselves need only about 180 days after retooling. Still 12 CAG1948 will cost about 355.2 ic, so donnot start that too late and be surprised a lot to your disadvantage. Maybe seperate construction is not the best approach and only using double ic on brigaded CV is more convenient. Double ic on 12 CV1945-CAG1945 will cost in the range of 355 ic, on 12 CV1948-CAG1948 in the range of 448 ic.

Your term "possible late 40's" leaves a lot to interpretation. A decision needs to be made with which Carrier model you want to start the war: CV1945, CV1947 or CV1948. Even if you use triple ic once retooling is done you need about 400 days for constuction and about 40+40 days for retooling, but half of that can happen before the tech is researched.

You probably want to tech rush CV1947 so you can research the Turbojet CAGs. CAG1948 has 17 sea attack compared to 12 from the model activated with CV1945. Having those crucial techs before the enemy and using that possibly short window of opportunity seems important. Taking that into account building 18 to 24 CV1945-CAG1945 without accelerated production and upgrading the CAG in the weeks before the war starts seems the best approach. For that about 500 ic should be kept free for upgrading.

If however it is foreseeable that you cannot create such an window of opportunity, than going directly for CV1948 is the proper choice. The model is not much superior to CV1945 but not too little superior either, so not using the better models is no good idea unless the mentioned window of opportunity warrants otherwise.


One challenge you might face is that the enemy carriers are more experienced. High experience might offset an advantage of having more modern models. Also your ability to research the needed Base Strike doctrine tree is rather limited.

 

[stevep]

Pang

Thanks for that. My question was a bit vague because I've never gone that far so uncertain what would be required and what options there might be. It also depends on how the war with the fascist powers end. For instance a war in which the US doesn't join the allies is different from where their allied to the UK. Also if the US or Britain end up with large areas of the old world that can restrict options for expansion I suspect.

Thanks for the information. Got to consider starting research late 41, just after the German storm hits, although research is fairly cheap. Then possibly a massive programme of construction. If I can resume steady construction of IC say in 42-43 after my military production peaks in 41-42 that should hopefully be manageable. Along with the completion of most of the infra projects selected by either the initial set-up or myself.

I think the preferred escorts for CVGs are normally either DD or CLs. Is there any preference?

Many thanks for the info.

Steve

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Got to consider starting research late 41,

By that time it might be best to have finished all 1938 techs. It might be convenient to use the Yakolev tech team. Skill 8 allows to research Carriers faster than skill 4 naval teams.

I think the preferred escorts for CVGs are normally either DD or CLs. Is there any preference?

Early on CL can be preferable due to greater range and possibly a temporary preference by doctrines. Later on DD are quite likely the better choice. DD1947-ASW will do a great job, research on CL can be skipped. As soviet union a somewhat tight focus is sensible due to the limited quality of the available tech teams.