Three Mountains 1.24 - need advice on opener

[giovdb]

I attempted a run on this for the last couple days but I'm having to restart. I didn't have powerful enough alliances and got DOW by many nations (not a coalition). I also spent far too much Admin points at the beginning and never got to Deus Vult, which was a major issue and slowed me down a lot.

I saw a thread on 1.23 which was very helpful, but I'm having some troubles at the very beginning. I decided that its logical on 1.24 to go after all the Philippines nations first. On my initial run, I took them all directly and cored, trying to get my core land higher to increase income and manpower (a bit). An alternate way to reduce Admin point usage would be to release vassals instead. However, the issue I had with vassals, is that Ryukyu is so small at the beginning that Liberty desire is way high. I know you can give them land to get a temporary reduction of LD, but is that enough to last the length of annexation? How do people deal with Liberty Desire since they stack with each vassal?

How do you guys deal with direct coring vs vassal feeding early? How do you decide which to do where?

How much direct expansion do you do before Admin tech 5?

When replying, please let me know if you completed this achievement before, and which version (if you remember).

In terms of my credentials, I have around 1300 hours in the game, but most a long time ago. Still getting used to some of the newer mechanics. I have achieved WC before with Ottomans (different ball game entirely, I know...), Big Blue Blob, The Re-Reconquista (Granada), Luck of the Irish, Better than Napoleon, to name a few.

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Bouchart]

You are too small to bother with vassals that early. Core and own them directly. The Phillipines and greater Indonesian area has great trade goods and you want to own all of that for yourself. You'd also want to change your primary culture to something in the Malay group like Filipino.

 

[Howl]

I checked the map for 1.24 and the religion of those new tags are useless to you.
There is only one non animist province and it is outside of our coring range. So if you go for the Phillipines first you have to deal with the separatist rebels. Don't know how to do that.

I would still open with taking on the small nations in India.

 

[giovdb]

I checked the map for 1.24 and the religion of those new tags are useless to you.
There is only one non animist province and it is outside of our coring range. So if you go for the Phillipines first you have to deal with the separatist rebels. Don't know how to do that.

I would still open with taking on the small nations in India.

You can't core a nation in India at the beginning of the game. So you'd vassalize through war? You couldn't take and release either. They'd also be really upset with very high Liberty Desire. Still worth it?

 

[firezatswill9]

You can't core a nation in India at the beginning of the game. So you'd vassalize through war? You couldn't take and release either. They'd also be really upset with very high Liberty Desire. Still worth it?

No-CB one of the southern Indian minors (usually Madurai in my experiences) and vassalize them. If Vijay DOW'd them while you were at war, you'll become the new war leader and Ming will be called in, due to one of their tributaries being attacked. Make sure Ming has access to India via other nations (you might need to get access for them, the AI can be woefully inept at this), and then watch them absolutely brutalize Vijay. From there, take whatever land you can, as you can core land adjacent to same-continent vassals.

From there, flip to hindu via breaking to hindu rebels and then lock down India for all that sweet, sweet trade money.

 

[giovdb]

No-CB one of the southern Indian minors (usually Madurai in my experiences) and vassalize them. If Vijay DOW'd them while you were at war, you'll become the new war leader and Ming will be called in, due to one of their tributaries being attacked. Make sure Ming has access to India via other nations (you might need to get access for them, the AI can be woefully inept at this), and then watch them absolutely brutalize Vijay. From there, take whatever land you can, as you can core land adjacent to same-continent vassals.

From there, flip to hindu via breaking to hindu rebels and then lock down India for all that sweet, sweet trade money.

Brilliant. Will try that. Thank you!

Will ignore all the new Philippine minors for now.

 

[giovdb]

So also don't spend Admin on stability right? Because breaking through rebels resets stab, right?

 

[giovdb]

Also, what do you do with ships? Three cogs probably won't be enough to take Madurai right? Do you build more right away?

 

[ShoGuL]

I've never had much success with the early India gambit (feels too random to me).

@Howl is incorrect with the religion estimation of the Phillipine minors; most of them are Hindu state religion and animist provinces. If you sit tight a few years, they will convert all the provinces to Hindu.

What worked for me was to sit tight until the first idea of exploration (sell ships to Ming, privateer in Beijing). Find your Philippine target, improve relations with their neighbors and get spy network on your target.

Plant a single colony next to your target, this will allow you to fabricate claims and ally their neighbors. Promise land, attack, annex, break promise. Then claim and annex the rest. Since most of the provinces will be Hindu, break to Hindu rebels. Either develop renaissance in Okinawa, or move your capital to the Phillipines and do it there.

Repeat with Tidore and Ternate right away, some of the wealthiest provinces in the game (either get some galleys or use burghers to draft ships). From there, you can hit Makassar, and then Majapahit or Brunei (depending on allies). Push towards Africa meanwhile. With exploration (you just need 3 ideas) and dip 7, you can get to Alaska and potentially spawn Colonialism.

I personally prefer Humanism as my second idea, but I guess Religious works. After Colonialism, colonize Lae and move capital there for trade companies.

It's not as fast as the India gambit, but it's reliable

 

[giovdb]

I've never had much success with the early India gambit (feels too random to me).

@Howl is incorrect with the religion estimation of the Phillipine minors; most of them are Hindu state religion and animist provinces. If you sit tight a few years, they will convert all the provinces to Hindu.

What worked for me was to sit tight until the first idea of exploration (sell ships to Ming, privateer in Beijing). Find your Philippine target, improve relations with their neighbors and get spy network on your target.

Plant a single colony next to your target, this will allow you to fabricate claims and ally their neighbors. Promise land, attack, annex, break promise. Then claim and annex the rest. Since most of the provinces will be Hindu, break to Hindu rebels. Either develop renaissance in Okinawa, or move your capital to the Phillipines and do it there.

Repeat with Tidore and Ternate right away, some of the wealthiest provinces in the game (either get some galleys or use burghers to draft ships). From there, you can hit Makassar, and then Majapahit or Brunei (depending on allies). Push towards Africa meanwhile. With exploration (you just need 3 ideas) and dip 7, you can get to Alaska and potentially spawn Colonialism.

I personally prefer Humanism as my second idea, but I guess Religious works. After Colonialism, colonize Lae and move capital there for trade companies.

It's not as fast as the India gambit, but it's reliable

Thank you for the advice. Why privateer instead of protect trade? The relations hit with Ming is huge... What am I missing? Is it really that much better?

Lae is in New Guinea, right? Why there specifically? Doesn't Manila work too?

 

[ShoGuL]

Thank you for the advice. Why privateer instead of protect trade? The relations hit with Ming is huge... What am I missing? Is it really that much better?

Lae is in New Guinea, right? Why there specifically? Doesn't Manila work too?

Yeah. Lae is in Oceania but outside the Indonesian Trade Company region (iirc any New Guinea province works, but Lae is grassland ).

Manila doesn't work because it's in Asia, so it doesn't allow you to TC Asia. Being able to TC Asia asap is important because it allows you to get 80% of the benefits of a full core at only half the cost (so in a way it's like having 50% RCC), and it doesn't cost a state slot. Alternatively you could focus hard on securing Zanzibar ASAP to TC there and then move your capital to Europe right away, but that's always felt really daunting to me.

Going through the Mamlukes and putting your capital in Cyprus is probably the easiest if you go that route.

Edit: The privateering malus hurts but if you improve relations with Ming, it'll break even. Afaik you get more from privateering because your trade capital won't be in Beijing, so you would get -50% trade power from just collecting.

As of the latest patches, Okinawa is in the Nippon trade node, which is much poorer than Beijing.

 

[giovdb]

With the India route, I DOW on Madurai on December 11th to prevent alliances, but when I got there it was too late. Vijay was already sieging. So I decided to attack Ceylon and I succeeded. I have a two province vassal with 83% LD. Yay! Lol. But Vijay did not declare, so should I restart? Is the Vijay attacking an integral part of the strategy? Is it worth continuing without it? I am seating at -3 stab with no extra land...

 

[ShoGuL]

With the India route, I DOW on Madurai on December 11th to prevent alliances, but when I got there it was too late. Vijay was already sieging. So I decided to attack Ceylon and I succeeded. I have a two province vassal with 83% LD. Yay! Lol. But Vijay did not declare, so should I restart? Is the Vijay attacking an integral part of the strategy? Is it worth continuing without it? I am seating at -3 stab with no extra land...

Yeah, Vijay declaring is part of the strategy Sometimes you can sit with it fully sieged for a few years and they will declare.

The reason it works is because of an 'exploit' (bug? oversight?) where Ming is called in as an ally when you vassalize a nation someone else is fighting. This is because it becomes a defensive war, and Ming thus moves to 'protect' you.

 

[giovdb]

I'll restart again... When do you declare on Madurai (or other)? Do you build up first and then DOW? Or Dow right away?

 

[giovdb]

Got Ming to join! But they are getting a ton of rebellions... Not looking too good. The ONE time I want them to be strong... lol

 

[giovdb]

Ming peaced out... My luck...

 

[Howl]

You can't core a nation in India at the beginning of the game. So you'd vassalize through war? You couldn't take and release either. They'd also be really upset with very high Liberty Desire. Still worth it?

You can core provinces adjacent to same continent vassals. So you get a vassal there, typically Madurai or Kochin because of the alliances and take it from there.

With the India route, I DOW on Madurai on December 11th to prevent alliances, but when I got there it was too late. Vijay was already sieging. So I decided to attack Ceylon and I succeeded. I have a two province vassal with 83% LD. Yay! Lol. But Vijay did not declare, so should I restart? Is the Vijay attacking an integral part of the strategy? Is it worth continuing without it? I am seating at -3 stab with no extra land...

You start the game by building 4 additional Inf, and improving relations with Vijay. Sell galleys to Ming and ship troops to Vijay. You can easily get Militara Access and Fleet Basing Rights from Vijay. When your 8 troops are safely in Vijay, declare war, unexile your troops via boats and march on to glory.

@Howl is incorrect with the religion estimation of the Phillipine minors; most of them are Hindu state religion and animist provinces. If you sit tight a few years, they will convert all the provinces to Hindu.

My advice is for getting the first war started within the first year. I refuse to sit and watch the screen for any amount of time.
Also it guarantees that you have land in India, which is great for getting coring range to Africa.

Vijay declaring is nice, but not necessary. It may even tempt you to get too much land, which makes either rebels or vassal management difficult early game.

 

[giovdb]

On another run, Vijay did not declare, but Venad did, so I annexed them, fabricated claims on Cylon and took them. So I have 3 provinces in India. The only issue is that they are not all Hindu. Sigh... When I put a missionary there I'm not getting a chance at religious rebels. Just separatists.

 

[giovdb]

And Ming doesn't seem reliable at all. They even white peaced against Venad FYI. Seems really risky. The payoff would be great though.

 

[giovdb]

Got an even to convert to Theverada for Free... I think I should do it for now... It would be tough to deal with Ceylon separatists...