Thoughts on Venice in HRE Strategy

[hauptman]

An awful lot of time is five years?

Even if you want to min max I still think that forming the HRE as Venice would be a better maximization even if you miss out on five years of doing something, and you don't because you can use your croatian vassal to expand in the mean time.

I mean sure some people might not want to join the HRE and that's fine but if your intent is to do the best with Venice I can't see how being in the HRE would not be that great. Unless republics are much better than I thought.


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You were talking about becoming emperor, and forming the HRE. That is not simply 5 years of investment. That is centuries of investment. and certain choices of idea sets become required, that you could ignore if you chose to seek your power and fortune elsewhere through trade and naval might. The HRE is a landser's game. Your galley stack is not going to stop france, poland or even denmark. Your lack of diprep and authority bonuses is going to require near 100 IA for each reform.

Now if all you really care to do is join the HRE to keep austria off your back, by all means that 5 years could be well spent. But it'll bite you in the ass later, especially after Landfriede.

 

[hauptman]

In my one Venice game, I ignored the HRE entirely, I set to work Immediatly on greece, and taking out the Turk. Then moved into Egypt. By the time austria came knocking, my wealth and military power squashed him like the simple bug he was. I took everything I wanted (tirol) and spent the rest of the game going east. The HRE never became a threat.

 

[RMcD94]

By set to work on Greece I assume you blockaded Albania then vassalized them, putting you at war with the Ottomans?

Or did you try another tactic.

Edit: Also if you really don't want to become the emperor then just leave before Landfriede. In the early stages of the game you'll have Austrias might and protection, free reign on conquering Italian lands, and then later on in the game you just click the leave empire button

 

[hauptman]

By set to work on Greece I assume you blockaded Albania then vassalized them, putting you at war with the Ottomans?

Or did you try another tactic.

Edit: Also if you really don't want to become the emperor then just leave before Landfriede. In the early stages of the game you'll have Austrias might and protection, free reign on conquering Italian lands, and then later on in the game you just click the leave empire button

Why would I vassalize something I had a reconquest CB on, No sir I annexed!~

Then faught the Turks on my own terms, that being, while his army was standing in anatolia seiging adal. My galleys then quashed his navy, and I set to besieging greece to piece apart through numerous wars. As you can see from the final screenshot, Karaman also helped a little.

 

[RMcD94]

Why would I vassalize something I had a reconquest CB on, No sir I annexed!~

Then faught the Turks on my own terms, that being, while his army was standing in anatolia seiging adal. My galleys then quashed his navy, and I set to besieging greece to piece apart through numerous wars. As you can see from the final screenshot, Karaman also helped a little.

How do you get your troops there before the Ottomans? Aren't they seiging it straight away?

 

[cwg9]

Why don't you like the HRE strategy?

It is very true that Venice has a very good defensive position. Even in my short time playing as them retreating into that island is a godsend.

I don't like the HRE strategy because when I play Venice my goal is to dominate the Mediterranean and the trade routes through Constantinople and Alexandria to India in China. My normal conquering areas are the adriatic coast, Italy and Greece, the rest of the eastern med coast from Alexandria to Constantinople, and then jump to the other side of Africa and start conquering in the Aden and Ceylon nodes and onwards through Asia around to China. I really don't care about inland European provinces much as Venice since they rarely help me increase my trade income (with some exceptions, e.g. controlling all the Venice node provinces). If I wanted to dominate all of central Europe via the HRE I would normally start with a country that's already a monarchy and that's already in the empire (Austria being the obvious albeit overpowered choice).

Edit: If I'm not mistaken as a non-HRE member the consequences for unlawful imperial territory are also much less severe.

 

[Atlanteax]

I don't like the HRE strategy because when I play Venice my goal is to dominate the Mediterranean and the trade routes through Constantinople and Alexandria to India in China. My normal conquering areas are the adriatic coast, Italy and Greece, the rest of the eastern med coast from Alexandria to Constantinople, and then jump to the other side of Africa and start conquering in the Aden and Ceylon nodes and onwards through Asia around to China. I really don't care about inland European provinces much as Venice since they rarely help me increase my trade income (with some exceptions, e.g. controlling all the Venice node provinces). If I wanted to dominate all of central Europe via the HRE I would normally start with a country that's already a monarchy and that's already in the empire (Austria being the obvious albeit overpowered choice).

Edit: If I'm not mistaken as a non-HRE member the consequences for unlawful imperial territory are also much less severe.

If you are conquering *outside* of the HRE ... like you indicated you tend to do ... then you would not suffer any unlawful imperial territory penalties whether a HRE member or not ... so might as well be HRE member with the benefits.

The unlawful is only for conquering within the HRE.

 

[Fossa]

Actually everything in this game is about min/maxing.

Lol, good joke

 

[hauptman]

Lol, good joke

Umm, if your not minmaxing your strategies based on your national ideas, you're doing it wrong...

Would you play a diplo trade game as Prussia? Would you go on a mad conquest spree as the hansa? Would you try to play a colonial Bohemia game????

No you choose nations that fit what you want to do... that is what min/maxing means.... using the maximum military power of Prussia to conquer, and using Diplomacy as austria to absorb. While ignoring your minimums, you dont focus on trade as prussia, and you dont focus on military conquest as austria... because they have MINIMUM abilites in those things.

 

[Xara]

The unlawful is only for conquering within the HRE.

With good timing, you can avoid being hit with the unlawful territory. It can't be demanded if you or the Emperor are at war.

 

[cwg9]

If you are conquering *outside* of the HRE ... like you indicated you tend to do ... then you would not suffer any unlawful imperial territory penalties whether a HRE member or not ... so might as well be HRE member with the benefits.

The unlawful is only for conquering within the HRE.

Yes, I know, but as Venice I fully intend to conquer northern Italy and kick the HRE out! All those lovely Lombard culture provinces are too nice to pass up. It's the German provinces across the alps I don't give a fig about.

 

[RMcD94]

I have been progressing extremely slowly due to how bad I am at war with this game, but here it is so far:

http://imgur.com/bxoDokD,bSfEemH,RsbwuYt,o08Jn0B

Unfortunately my republic ended on a 2/5/2 not a 3/6/3 but ah well.

I ended a war with Hungary too soon because I had lost way too much manpower. I was hoping not to get a heir so I'd be of the same dynasty as Castille (in PU with Aragon and Naples) or the Hasburgs (not that important only Austria and Urbino). The Wittenbachs have done the best for spreading though. I also failed to capitalise on my chance when I got pulled into a war against Ottomans.

Interesting note, Genoa declared war on Granada. It was like the first war

 

[RMcD94]

I totally forgot to take Plutocratic ideas, goddamnit. These kind of things are why I've restarted twenty times

 

[WiseGreen]

Umm, if your not minmaxing your strategies based on your national ideas, you're doing it wrong...

Would you play a diplo trade game as Prussia? Would you go on a mad conquest spree as the hansa? Would you try to play a colonial Bohemia game????

No you choose nations that fit what you want to do... that is what min/maxing means.... using the maximum military power of Prussia to conquer, and using Diplomacy as austria to absorb. While ignoring your minimums, you dont focus on trade as prussia, and you dont focus on military conquest as austria... because they have MINIMUM abilites in those things.

But why not do these things? EUIV isn't a normal game where you play to "win", and where there is a clear set of rules defining what is and what isn't "winning". There's no "You win!" or "You lose!" screen. There's no unified goal shared by all players and enforced by the game itself, so people are free to pursue any goal they fancy. And if that goal is diplotrading as Prussia or conquering all Europe as the Hansa, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with that as long as the player is having fun. And overcoming the weaknesses of your mins sounds like a fun challenge; not something I'd try every time, but surely something I'd try sooner or later.

 

[hauptman]

But why not do these things? EUIV isn't a normal game where you play to "win", and where there is a clear set of rules defining what is and what isn't "winning". There's no "You win!" or "You lose!" screen. There's no unified goal shared by all players and enforced by the game itself, so people are free to pursue any goal they fancy. And if that goal is diplotrading as Prussia or conquering all Europe as the Hansa, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with that as long as the player is having fun. And overcoming the weaknesses of your mins sounds like a fun challenge; not something I'd try every time, but surely something I'd try sooner or later.

That's basically the equivilant of a house rule of "not buying any idea's" just to increase difficulty.

There are better house rules to increase difficulty upon yourself than trying (and failing) to make Hansa armies the most feared armies in the world, because you simply cant do that. Russia will always have more, and Prussia/France will always have better. So instead you STACK NIs and idea sets to focus on trade income, and instead of using armies to beat them on the battlefield, you buy what you want (pay for peace deals and alliances with real fighting nations).

 

[RMcD94]

Just to inform everyone that must to my chagrin this no longer works in 1.7.0

I gave up my core to Milan, released my vassals then cancelled them, and even without them I still couldn't join the HRE. I'm not sure what the new cutoff point is but I'm not seeing who is meant to use that button now.

 

[nouli]

Just to inform everyone that must to my chagrin this no longer works in 1.7.0

I gave up my core to Milan, released my vassals then cancelled them, and even without them I still couldn't join the HRE. I'm not sure what the new cutoff point is but I'm not seeing who is meant to use that button now.

Vassals count into tax base (0.15 modifier). In some other thread somebody reported that it is possible as Venice, so sell more.

 

[RMcD94]

Vassals count into tax base (0.15 modifier). In some other thread somebody reported that it is possible as Venice, so sell more.

With only owning Venzia, Verona, Treviso, Friuli and having a vassal of OPM Corfu (the only thing Austria wouldn't let me cancel in the war). I'm still to big to join.

I started by releasing all vassals, and selling Lika to Croatia.

After I fabricate a claim on Milan I declare war on them though for some reason it gave me a huge stab hit anyway and everyone joined into a coalition against me and I still can't join.

http://i.imgur.com/ymJNJYk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cEZ5wBA.jpg

Income is 7, not sure where it says what base tax is.

 

[unmerged(88013)]

Forming Italy makes you a monarchy and changes your NI's. That's why people don't like it as Venice. I think it also changes your capital to Roma. So you're out of the HRE since you cannot add it yourself beforehand without being Emperor (which you cannot be). Yes. It sucks.

Couldn't you conquer Rome while you're in HRE and add it before forming Italy? I thought HRE members could add territory to it?

 

[HeroOfCows]

I've managed to do it. Released Croatia, sold them Istria (also had conquered Ragusa). Then sold Crete and all my Italian stuff but Venice and Friuli to Naxos. Like 360 diplo to annex them. Bit of a pain.