Thoughts on Venice in HRE Strategy

[RMcD94]

Since it is so easy for the player to become Emperor, I am curious as to your guys thoughts on spending the first couple of years as Venice to join the HRE. In case you don't know how to join the empire as Venice:

1. Do not take more land.
2. Guarantee and improve relations with Austria. (Also you can rival Austria's rival (usually Burgundy at the start)):

The border friction is -28, the improved relations is 100, the guarantee is 10, and same religion is +25.

3. Wait for Austria to go to war. Once they go to war, give them 60 months of 0.00 war subsidies.
4. Release vassal of Crete or Croatia. Releasing one brings you to needing 200 opinion, releasing 2 brings you to 190 opinion.
5. Enforce peace on whoever is at war with Austria.
6. Add your capital to the HRE.

In my test game (I have yet to try playing through this), not in ironman for no particular reason, I did this really quickly. In another test game it took ages for Austria to go to war and in the mean time Milan and Hungary declared war on me (because I was literally just pressing 5 speed, in your own game you will take allies). Austria also was hostile the entire time and so you couldn't do this much easier with simply allying them. I also did not have to send gifts which is quite a significant sum for Austria.

So my question is whether you guys think this delay of at most 5 years is worth the benefits of being in the HRE so early for Venice. As I said I've never played Venice so I don't know what the usual strategies are. The also downside are having to release your vassals and usually being over the limit in diplo relations until you cancel all the Austria stuff. This is one of the reasons my other diplomat is usually improving relations with a vassal so I can get rid of it quick. Another downside though I'm sure it's not constant is I didn't take any missions or do anything at all during this time for fear I would mess up.

Edit: I checked (and because for some silly reason I had autosaves on 5 years I had to play again) and it took from start date to 9th of February 1448 to get to 100+ improved relations, putting you at 107 positive with Austria, without enemy of enemy bonus.

Diplo relations at the start:

1. Knights (Guaranteeing) - I just cancel this, not sure if this is good strategy or not.
2. Corfu (vassal) - in one game rebels flipped this to Byzantium which was surprising
3. Naxos (vassal)

Diplo relations after adding to HRE:

1. Corfu (vassal)
2. Naxos (vassal)
3. Austria (things)
4. Crete (vassal)
~5. Croatia (vassal)
~6. Allies...

 

[Xara]

-3 revolt risk? -10% tech cost? Austria won't DOW you with imperial ban? Hell yes it's worth it. What "delay" would there even be? What are you gonna do in the meantime?

Course, you still gotta take measures afterward, once they pick up "Our Claims to Northern Italy"

You could also just sell Crete to Byzantium or something

 

[justin6477]

So, OP is planning a Venice>Italy>HRE run? Sounds good.

 

[RMcD94]

So I've started playing my ironman game, and I got in the HRE on 1452 Dec 21. Two reasons it was slow, one I was dumb and forgot to release my vassal before enforcing peace (so I had to ally with Austria)

http://i.imgur.com/vEyL3MS.png

And Burgundy took forever to declare war, and since you can't enforce peace when Austria is the attacker it takes a while.

Also I discovered that republics are apparently ineligible for being Emperor which I had no idea about, not sure what to do about that.

 

[Rya]

Also I discovered that republics are apparently ineligible for being Emperor which I had no idea about, not sure what to do about that.

Forming Italy makes you a monarchy and changes your NI's. That's why people don't like it as Venice. I think it also changes your capital to Roma. So you're out of the HRE since you cannot add it yourself beforehand without being Emperor (which you cannot be). Yes. It sucks.

 

[serivahn]

Let your republican tradition go to 0 and you'll turn into a despotic monarchy.

 

[RobRoy3]

Let your republican tradition go to 0 and you'll turn into a despotic monarchy.

Yes. And in the meantime, you'll enjoy a few regularly re-elected uber-Doges. Make sure you take plutocracy early, though, you can't take it after becoming a monarchy, but you do keep it.

But don't form Italy.

 

[unmerged(82265)]

That's one way to play Venice. I prefer battling my way in.
I always take Genoa and Papal States land/vassalize at the get go. Then Serbia, Bosnia, Wachallia. After that I punch Austria in the face, while taking the rest of Italy, release Styria and go from there. Huge tax _and_ trade income.

There are a lot of Venice Strategies.

 

[RMcD94]

That's one way to play Venice. I prefer battling my way in.
I always take Genoa and Papal States land/vassalize at the get go. Then Serbia, Bosnia, Wachallia. After that I punch Austria in the face, while taking the rest of Italy, release Styria and go from there. Huge tax _and_ trade income.

There are a lot of Venice Strategies.

True, but it's hard for me to say no to that imperial integrity and then the reichsreform too.

Forming Italy makes you a monarchy and changes your NI's. That's why people don't like it as Venice. I think it also changes your capital to Roma. So you're out of the HRE since you cannot add it yourself beforehand without being Emperor (which you cannot be). Yes. It sucks.

Damn, that sucks.

Clearly this plan of mine is not going to work at all.

Let your republican tradition go to 0 and you'll turn into a despotic monarchy.

I've never played a republic before so that's useful. I guess just taking the same ruler 10 times?

 

[zodium]

That's one way to play Venice. I prefer battling my way in.
I always take Genoa and Papal States land/vassalize at the get go. Then Serbia, Bosnia, Wachallia. After that I punch Austria in the face, while taking the rest of Italy, release Styria and go from there. Huge tax _and_ trade income.

There are a lot of Venice Strategies.

Don't force Austria to release Styria. Instead take one Styrian province and release it as a vassal, then feed the Styrian cores back to them. It's beyond ridiculous, but so very satisfying--not quite as good as feeding Novgorod its cores back, but it's up there. Any country that can beat Austria to 100% can do it, since you can always get them in a war while they're emperor.

 

[Fossa]

And Burgundy took forever to declare war, and since you can't enforce peace when Austria is the attacker it takes a while.

I tired this. Once in 10 games Austria was on the defending side within 15 years from the start date. Otherwise it was on the attacking side or peaceful. I give up on this.

 

[RMcD94]

I tired this. Once in 10 games Austria was on the defending side within 15 years from the start date. Otherwise it was on the attacking side or peaceful. I give up on this.

Maybe I was just lucky, but usually Burgundy goes to war within the first 5 years.

If it's taking too long just restart, I have had games like you said where it took 15 years and I usually just restart.

You can do other things during the wait.

For example, if you don't mind going over your diplo limit release croatia and feed Hungary to it.

Or you can set up your game at start and walk away until 5 years have passed.

I am actually really confused why Burgundy doesn't declare war more consistently (your 1/10), honestly does no one attack the empire in 15 years goddamnit!

Edit: it may be possible if you send gift to them that you can get an alliance if they stop being hostile. I honestly don't know the rules but you should have 150 relations without allying.

 

[hauptman]

If you intent is to play a 'real' venice trade game, then joining the HRE is not at all important. The trade nodes are all you care about, and the good ones arent a part of the HRE. The only one that feeds to Venice is Wein, and well, that's held by the emperor himself, so if you wish to conquer it, joining the hRE gives no benefits in war against the emperor. It could help vs mantua or tuscany however.

 

[RMcD94]

If you intent is to play a 'real' venice trade game, then joining the HRE is not at all important. The trade nodes are all you care about, and the good ones arent a part of the HRE. The only one that feeds to Venice is Wein, and well, that's held by the emperor himself, so if you wish to conquer it, joining the hRE gives no benefits in war against the emperor. It could help vs mantua or tuscany however.

Is being part of the empire not valuable for the safety it offers as well as the bonuses?

I don't know if you had to be a republic to play the trade game as Venice (like I said I've never played it outside of this idea), but considering you could be turn the world grey I can't see how that doesn't help.

 

[hauptman]

There are better nations to play if your intent is to form the HRE. You'll waste an awful lot of time just trying to get Into the hre as venice, then you have the whole changing of govt nonsense, with ideas that do nothing to help the formation of the HRE (unless you form italy, in which case even tuscany would be an easier choice).

Venice is all about that Trade and naval power... dominating the Mediteranian will take an awful lot of attention, and no point distracting yourself with silly HRE nonsense. Just build up some wealth, turn the wealth into power and disband the HRE before it forms up.

 

[Fossa]

I guess this thread is how to get Venice into the HRE and make it grow from there, more than the ways of forming the HRE as quickly as possible by playing Austria or something. Not everything is about min-maxing, you know.

 

[hauptman]

Actually everything in this game is about min/maxing.

 

[cwg9]

Personally I don't like the join HRE strategy. My preference is to ally France and Poland and use the to help keep Austria from messing with you. From there conquer adriatic coast, greece, italy, Constanstinople, whatever you feel like really. A strong navy to control the Med plus the French armies at your back makes for a powerful combo. If any major land powers get uppity, just grind them to dust in the mountains. Retreat to safety in your island capital whenever your armies need to recharge without your opponents being able to do a thing about it (except maybe if they are allied with England and they send their whole fleet to the Med, watch out for that).

 

[RMcD94]

There are better nations to play if your intent is to form the HRE. You'll waste an awful lot of time just trying to get Into the hre as venice, then you have the whole changing of govt nonsense, with ideas that do nothing to help the formation of the HRE (unless you form italy, in which case even tuscany would be an easier choice).

Venice is all about that Trade and naval power... dominating the Mediteranian will take an awful lot of attention, and no point distracting yourself with silly HRE nonsense. Just build up some wealth, turn the wealth into power and disband the HRE before it forms up.

An awful lot of time is five years?

Even if you want to min max I still think that forming the HRE as Venice would be a better maximization even if you miss out on five years of doing something, and you don't because you can use your croatian vassal to expand in the mean time.

I mean sure some people might not want to join the HRE and that's fine but if your intent is to do the best with Venice I can't see how being in the HRE would not be that great. Unless republics are much better than I thought.

Personally I don't like the join HRE strategy. My preference is to ally France and Poland and use the to help keep Austria from messing with you. From there conquer adriatic coast, greece, italy, Constanstinople, whatever you feel like really. A strong navy to control the Med plus the French armies at your back makes for a powerful combo. If any major land powers get uppity, just grind them to dust in the mountains. Retreat to safety in your island capital whenever your armies need to recharge without your opponents being able to do a thing about it (except maybe if they are allied with England and they send their whole fleet to the Med, watch out for that).

Why don't you like the HRE strategy?

It is very true that Venice has a very good defensive position. Even in my short time playing as them retreating into that island is a godsend.

 

[Atlanteax]

Croatia as a vassal is also a great way to get those SW Hungarian lands w/o having to spend Adm on core-ing.