Thoughts on the game and the first DLC.

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Mandred

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Like in the title, I would like to share some of my thoughts and ask you about yours.

My perspective may be detached because I do not own the game. I did not buy it. I was thinking about purchasing it. I do like Xcom games, and some other games that went into that style were pretty good too. But I was far too many times disappointed to make a preorder on unproven grounds. Even though I trust Paradox more than anybody else in the industry, and that I was bombarded on social media with advertisements of this game. And then I saw the reviews after the launch, which were mostly negative. As far as I can tell, the game had many obvious flaws that developers and people involved had to be aware of. But the game was released anyway because this is the game industry.

And here we are, over half a year after the release, and the review situation has not improved. Over half of the people that reviewed this game did it negatively. Looking at steam charts, the game has a small player base too. But the first DLC is on its way. For 15€... When Imperator Rome had a bad start, they did not jumped with such a price for the first DLC.

I just wonder what is going on. Will this DLC improve this game to such a degree that it will justify such a price? I have many doubts about that, but I will gladly listen to other people who actually have the game. First, I thought that this is madness. Charging people such a price for a game that has not many people playing it and that has over half negative reviews. But I have looked on the Steam store page, and I have a theory why it is so. It may be that this is a way out. In their haste, they were selling pre-orders for Deluxe Edition and Premium Edition. In such a situation, simple cutting losses on a project with little chance of recovery would look really bad and may bring some trouble. So maybe they will pop a couple of overpriced DLCs to a depopulated game to "satisfied" people who paid extra in the dark, then they will thank everybody and say how great there are, but time moves on, and so must they. Or they would just turn the switch off and say nothing to anybody because this happens in this industry too. I don't see any attempt to appease people with free DLC here. Something that often happens in similar situations if the people involved are trying to regain people and show their commitment.

I do not say that I'm right. I do not have the full picture, and my is even narrower. This is something I came up with, and to me, it may be a logical course of action. But I would like to know what other people think about it.

One more thing that I would like to touch here is that I do not understand what convinced Paradox to publish this game, let alone preordering it in some Deluxe and Premium editions. This is my limited perspective again, but who was the target for this game? Niche people, that would like some prohibition-era gangster game? I don't think so, looking how the gameplay looks like. Instead of expected families and gangs, we have The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. I don't think that gangsters in 1920s Chicago were running around after loot crates too. The combat system could not be to the liking of such people as well. Maybe Xcom players, like myself? I don't think that this game offers much novelty or interesting approach to this game genre to bring them in. Especially that this game had many bugs and the launch, as well as many people were pointing out that it is shallow, repetitive, oversimplified and AI is poor.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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When this game was released, like many Paradox games, there were areas of opportunity. This is known.

I have put in over 150 hours and spent a lot of time providing feedback to the Devs whether they wanted it or not because this era is a passion for me. I cannot say what I have or have not seen. But let me tell you the Dev team is relentlessly filling in the gaps and plugging the holes. Better days lie ahead.

There is no reason not to buy this game. @Secret Master wrote up a very nice review and was quite pleased with the current state of the game when he bought it on sale during the last cycle.

But the next turn of the knife, the Precinct free upgrade combined with the paid 'Make it Count' DLC, will be a massive upgrade to a good game.
 

Mandred

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Good that you are finding fun in the game, but many people do not. The game has a very bad review ratio from the beginning and a very low player base. And I think that it is justified. In such a case, the first DLC for 15€ is a reason for worry, not for hope, to me. It looks for me as straightway to bail out, not to change negative opinion about this game of over half the people who reviewed it and find new customers.

And if I may ask you, what is so attractive in this game for people fascinated in the prohibition era? As I see it, only the look of the city, some characters and the skeletal concept have something to do with the events of that period. I find other people who were counting on some real gangster game but were very disappointed by this one.
 

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@Secret Master wrote up a very nice review and was quite pleased with the current state of the game when he bought it on sale during the last cycle.

I don't recall writing a review as such. I was mainly asking mechanics questions. Are you thinking of someone else?
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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I don't recall writing a review as such. I was mainly asking mechanics questions. Are you thinking of someone else?
No. But I remember you saying positive things about your impressions buried in your list of questions. That the game had engaged you that far is promosing.

If I am mistaken my apologies. Just trying to point out to OP the game is far better today than the old reviews suggest, and will be even better soon.
 

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If I am mistaken my apologies.

I did have some complimentary things to say. But, if you want a more review-esque write up, I can provide something a bit more detailed here.

Pros:

Tactical gameplay matters. Not just in the sense that you want to maximize everyone's abilities when shooting at people, but in general, having solid tactical gameplay matters for winning the game.

The economy of neighborhoods matters. It dictates the liquor they want, and it dictates how much customers are willing to spend at rackets. Blowing up neighborhoods and shooting the place up can win gang wars, but it will have negative consequences that last awhile.

Demand for rackets is not infinite. You can't spam out 25 casinos in a neighborhood and expect them all to be profitable. Hell, in most cases, there's no reason to put rackets in all abandoned buildings, as there won't be enough customers most of the time.

You can build an empire that does not require murdering everyone. The major factions have to go, but the minor factions can be essentially folded into your organization by having them pay for protection. This happened in real life, and it makes the game better.

Cons:

Wiping out the boss of a major faction gives you control of their entire empire. This is... odd. It will also be addressed in upcoming content. If I had my druthers, I'd have it fragment into a collection of minor factions, but we'll see how it plays out.

Minor factions have infinite money and infinite demand for booze. As long as they are willing to buy from you, you can sell 1000 whiskey a week to a single minor faction no matter how many rackets they own or how wealthy they should be. In economic terms, this means that the winning move in most games is to focus on breweries. They require a huge capital investment, but the amount of money they can generate when just selling the booze to minor factions makes controlling Chicago's rackets look like small potatoes. And I want to emphasize that they buy any kind of booze, so there's no reason not to brew the most expensive stuff you can and sell it. Major factions have monetary limitations and have to follow some of the rules you do, but even just having on minor faction around to act as a booze outlet is a license to print money.

There is no "civilian" economy. You don't have to launder money via front businesses, you can't extort regular businesses, and gang wars only target rackets and gangsters. I understand why these things aren't in the game from one perspective (you'd need to render a lot of civilians, more businesses, and run a bunch of stuff in memory and on the processor), but it would make the city more "lived in" and give another layer to strategic management.

I'm not sure if it's just how I play the game, but I don't ever have any of my gangsters arrested. There is an option to get your gangsters released when interacting with police, but even when the police dislike me, my gang never suffers from arrests. Am I that good of a player? Or is it just underdeveloped? I do get rackets raided every once in awhile, but it's rare. Again, is it because I'm good? Or is it just really forgiving?


I can see why the game wasn't well received in some quarters, but I don't think it's that bad. It has two solid layers of gameplay, the rival factions, while not super smart in terms of AI, do try to behave in ways that fit the genre and setting, and I do actually have to think about what moves to make in both layers.
 
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Andre Bolkonsky

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I did have some complimentary things to say. But, if you want a more review-esque write up, I can provide something a bit more detailed here.

Pros:

Tactical gameplay matters. Not just in the sense that you want to maximize everyone's abilities when shooting at people, but in general, having solid tactical gameplay matters for winning the game.

The economy of neighborhoods matters. It dictates the liquor they want, and it dictates how much customers are willing to spend at rackets. Blowing up neighborhoods and shooting the place up can win gang wars, but it will have negative consequences that last awhile.

Demand for rackets is not infinite. You can't spam out 25 casinos in a neighborhood and expect them all to be profitable. Hell, in most cases, there's no reason to put rackets in all abandoned buildings, as there won't be enough customers most of the time.

You can build an empire that does not require murdering everyone. The major factions have to go, but the minor factions can be essentially folded into your organization by having them pay for protection. This happened in real life, and it makes the game better.

Cons:

Wiping out the boss of a major faction gives you control of their entire empire. This is... odd. It will also be addressed in upcoming content. If I had my druthers, I'd have it fragment into a collection of minor factions, but we'll see how it plays out.

Minor factions have infinite money and infinite demand for booze. As long as they are willing to buy from you, you can sell 1000 whiskey a week to a single minor faction no matter how many rackets they own or how wealthy they should be. In economic terms, this means that the winning move in most games is to focus on breweries. They require a huge capital investment, but the amount of money they can generate when just selling the booze to minor factions makes controlling Chicago's rackets look like small potatoes. And I want to emphasize that they buy any kind of booze, so there's no reason not to brew the most expensive stuff you can and sell it. Major factions have monetary limitations and have to follow some of the rules you do, but even just having on minor faction around to act as a booze outlet is a license to print money.

There is no "civilian" economy. You don't have to launder money via front businesses, you can't extort regular businesses, and gang wars only target rackets and gangsters. I understand why these things aren't in the game from one perspective (you'd need to render a lot of civilians, more businesses, and run a bunch of stuff in memory and on the processor), but it would make the city more "lived in" and give another layer to strategic management.

I'm not sure if it's just how I play the game, but I don't ever have any of my gangsters arrested. There is an option to get your gangsters released when interacting with police, but even when the police dislike me, my gang never suffers from arrests. Am I that good of a player? Or is it just underdeveloped? I do get rackets raided every once in awhile, but it's rare. Again, is it because I'm good? Or is it just really forgiving?


I can see why the game wasn't well received in some quarters, but I don't think it's that bad. It has two solid layers of gameplay, the rival factions, while not super smart in terms of AI, do try to behave in ways that fit the genre and setting, and I do actually have to think about what moves to make in both layers.
Very nicely said. I tend to agree with most of your points and some I have written out in great detail. What you see now is a vast improvement over the initial problem set and day one game play and I am watching it get better with every patch.

But you are a long time Paradox veteran. We met a decade ago in a completely different thread. A DLC or two and all of a sudden areas of opportunity become areas of strength. I think that is where we are headed.
 

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"I don't like the game on the basis that I haven't bought it yet."

Oh! haha
 
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I think @Mandred is asking why we enjoy a game that got questionable reviews upon release.

This is exactly the kind of question we want to answer. Mandred has been around this forum for years, he knows how the Paradox cycle works.

Those reviews were accurate and I myself had more than a few comments at the time. However, I've seen the upgrades made since that day and I am VERY ENTHUSIASTIC about what is to come.

Beyond that. What is my fascination with Prohibition Era gangsters and why do I have a knowledge of Rothstein, Meyer, Charlie, Benny, Albert, Frank, and the New York Mob as well as the Chicago Outfit? Pull up a chair and I'll tell you. It'll take a while. But if you want to know I will tell some tales.
 
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Colonel Bogey

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One of the problems is it tries to be too many things to too many people without really satisfying any... UNLESS... you're a strategy game fan (which most of us are on here) and you can poke it to death in attempts to understand it. And it sort of works, but I'm also very excited about what is planned for the future.
 

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One of the problems is it tries to be too many things to too many people without really satisfying any... UNLESS... you're a strategy game fan (which most of us are on here) and you can poke it to death in attempts to understand it. And it sort of works, but I'm also very excited about what is planned for the future.

You are correct. But the answer to this conundrum is historically Paradox Games are corrected through massive free patches released alongside DLC.

The Devs have publicly stated and shown hints of how the Precinct patch will rework neighborhood management using enhanced defensive formations while 'Make it Count' will reorganize the economy of the game while adding in Loansharking via Murder, Inc.

Fun times ahead.
 
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You are correct. But the answer to this conundrum is historically Paradox Games are corrected through massive free patches tied into DLC.

They have publicly stated and shown hints of how the Precinct patch will rework neighborhood management using enhanced defensive formations while 'Make it Count' will reorganize the economy of the game while adding in Loansharking via Murder, Inc.

Fun times ahead.
Oh, I know the deal. And those with rose coloured spectacles on may well remember that HOI3 never really worked for a very long time as opposed to being a game that does work but is to be built upon.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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Oh, I know the deal. And those with rose coloured spectacles on may well remember that HOI3 never really worked for a very long time as opposed to being a game that does work but is to be built upon.
I was there that day it was released. I remember it well.

Personally, I want them to bring back the specific industrial concerns for each country. US gets Standard Oil. Germany gets IG Farben. Etc. Was a WICKED GOOD system. Alas.
 
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I think the failure of this particular endeavour was to rush it onto consoles. Different market. They expect stuff to work. We expect stuff to grow.
 

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I think the failure of this particular endeavour was to rush it onto consoles. Different market. They expect stuff to work. We expect stuff to grow.
Your term, 'all things to all people', will suffice. They narrowed the scope a bit. :)
 
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