• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Lemont Elwood

General
On Probation
43 Badges
Jun 10, 2011
2.247
1.882
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
I've been having a blast, lately, playing as 769 Orissa on the latest patch, but I've noticed some things that bother me. Now, I'm sure these issues have been talked about a million times, but in my defense, I'm only a casual player of Paradox games, and so I tend to be "behind" the community.

The issue I have with the game is the failure of the AI to adequately defend itself, the way that post-Conclave alliances make the game worse, and the way tributaries are overpowered. To begin, let's address alliances.

As many have argued before me, not being able to break an alliance is ridiculous. In fact, I believe Paradox announced that they're changing that in the next major patch, in which case it's not really an issue now. But yeah, it's an issue, and for more reasons than just me not wanting to defend my allies. See, with allies being unable to turn down a call, you can pretty much use them as your personal guard.

Trust and Favors were introduced to EU4 specifically to keep nations from abusing alliances to expand, but in CK2, you don't even have the choice of whether or not to abuse them; if you have an alliance, it is automatically an offensive alliance, and they will fight (no matter how they feel about it) for you. I remember playing vanilla CK2; I had to be careful about when I called in allies (since they may shoot down my request, they'd definitely be annoyed), and I could also weigh my options and choose to betray them. It wasn't a sure thing, and that uncertainty and made the game more fun.

Then, there's the matter of tributaries. Now, I'm not really a medieval history guy, but I thought that tribute was basically the national equivalent of extortion. Why, then, do you get to call your tributaries in as allies? See, the way the system is set up, it sounds like tributaries are worse than vassals... but when you actually calculate it, they're not. My vassals get pissy and they stop paying me taxes, they stop giving me leveis. My vassals get pissy and they plot to kill and overthrow me. My tributaries pay me 40% guaranteed, give me their full levies (even if I can't personally command them), and they'll never threaten my throne. What's more, I can make ANYBODY a tributary. It's really overpowered compared to traditional vassalization, and I feel like it could be balanced well by just limiting it and removing the alliance aspect, or even having there be an obligation to protect your tributaries, but not having them come to your aid in your own defensive wars. Tributaries should also be able to gang up to all declare independence at once.

Finally, the AI doesn't seem to know how to use these features to protect itself. That's the main reason the game is so easy - the player is the only aggressive actor, unlike in CK2. If the AI were more clever, it would actively form alliances and actively take new tributaries. Instead, it sets around, pushing claims but not trying to create a diplomatic network to support it. By the time your Threat gets high enough for a coalition, it's too late for the AI to stop you.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

RagingJaws

Looter of Priceless Artifacts
99 Badges
May 10, 2016
790
1.076
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • BATTLETECH
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
The AI can only be made so "smart" with the multitude of options and decisions it has to make in CK. A dedicated player can and should be able to out play a computer. The system used now is fine. You, or others, may disagree but I'd like to see some serious alternatives for once.

I don't think the AI values creating tribute states, as I've never seen it. It's behavior weight is always on pushing claims because that's how the AI believes it gets stronger. Those weights are too simple to create an active allied tribute network. As to why, would be a question for one of the coders.

The AI *does* form alliances though, in response to threats. In my current Ironman game I've had to deal with a constantly reforming alliance of Suomenukso tribal kingdoms in the one "safe" place to expand as the Mongols in the 769 start date. They slowed down my expansion a great deal because I had to play it so carefully, as the Uyghers were always waiting to swoop in at a sign of weakness. I've seen other examples of proactive alliance networks. Not at the level of a human player but that'd be asking for too much.

Having the AI decline a call to arms would be a good idea, if it wasn't a crippling penalty for the AI. I don't remember if the change explained what sort of bad results would come from a declined alliance call.
 

Tristen91

Lord High Chancellor
69 Badges
Apr 7, 2014
57
0
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Yes it was a problem. One that was annoying at times because it was to far away for the player to end if the AI can't OR some crucial decisions players have to make require you to be at peace. I am glad they will change it in the next update. While it has major penalties for not accepting it is more realistic and less annoying.