Thoughts about advanced planet classes (Gaia, Ecumenopolis, etc)

[GonDragon]

Ecumenopolis


-15% Habitability from the original planet class

As it's a big city planet, I would say that the weather on the outside wouldn't modify the habitability of the planet. So, I would say that a flat %60 habitability would be better (And can be enhanced with the repetable technology).

 

[happyscrub]

Normal organic planetary districts provide 1-2 jobs. Ecus provide 10. 10 = 2 +400%

You are comparing different jobs together. That's flawed.

 

[Mastikator]

ehrm.....why?

Strategic resources are not terribly hard to get. Natural sources are pretty painless to harvest. If your economy is amazing, you can just buy them from the market. Barring that, mining and generator worlds don't really use their building slots, so those are excellent targets for refineries. Or inversely a refinery world will have a ton of unemployment unless you use rural districts.

Now maybe I'm biased as I usually always max mining districts, and frequently sit with an income of several hundred minerals at all times, so sinking a few thousand per month into refineries isn't a big issue for my playstyle. Even trade contributes to the minerals indirectly with consumer benefits. Worst comes to worst, I sell food to buy minerals, but usually I'm in a positition to sell minerals, C.G., and alloys before anything else.

Let's let the math do the talking.

Foundry Arcology
30 alloys output
60 minerals input
5 energy upkeep
Special bonus +20%
1 District used
10 pops employed and housed

City District + Nano Alloy Foundry + Chemical Plant
24 alloys output
58 minerals input
11 energy upkeep
Foundry planet bonus +5%
1 district used, 2 building slots used
8 pops housed, 9 pops employed

Assuming 50% stability and no other empire or pop bonuses:
Ecumenopolis: 0.6 alloy per mineral, 5 energy upkeep
Regular planet: 0.434 alloys per mineral, 11 energy upkeep

The Ecumenopolis produces a whooping 38% more alloys for the same amount of minerals. And it does it for less energy and no building slots used (AKA you free up more building slots for more researchers etc etc this is how you snowball even harder).

The downside is that you lose out on mineral production but frankly we have all had more than a few planets that just utterly suck at mineral production anyway.

 

[RoverStorm]

Let's let the math do the talking.

Foundry Arcology
30 alloys output
60 minerals input
5 energy upkeep
Special bonus +20%
1 District used
10 pops employed and housed

City District + Nano Alloy Foundry + Chemical Plant
24 alloys output
58 minerals input
11 energy upkeep
Foundry planet bonus +5%
1 district used, 2 building slots used
8 pops housed, 9 pops employed

Assuming 50% stability and no other empire or pop bonuses:
Ecumenopolis: 0.6 alloy per mineral, 5 energy upkeep
Regular planet: 0.434 alloys per mineral, 11 energy upkeep

The Ecumenopolis produces a whooping 38% more alloys for the same amount of minerals. And it does it for less energy and no building slots used (AKA you free up more building slots for more researchers etc etc this is how you snowball even harder).

The downside is that you lose out on mineral production but frankly we have all had more than a few planets that just utterly suck at mineral production anyway.

I never denied ecumenopolis's awesome power, I meant why never upgrade buildings on normal planets, before you get ecus or if you cannot get them.

 

[Mastikator]

I never denied ecumenopolis's awesome power, I meant why never upgrade buildings on normal planets, before you get ecus or if you cannot get them.

Ah okay. I totally agree with you then

 

[Wyldshot]

Most basic buildings host 2 jobs at most, except for commercial zone that hosts horrible clerk jobs. You don't actually want upgraded buildings because they use limited minerals inefficiently except for 1st upgrade of temple (4 jobs) and system capital (8 jobs). meaning that all buildings will host total of 2*14+4+8=40 jobs at most. And you have 35+ extra pops to work in districts.

... what did you say about working all the jobs? I think typical planets have around 14-18 districts, i.e. about 28-36 jobs from districts so it works just nice =).

I disagree about upgraded building not he worth it. 4 basic labs take 4 building slots and give 8 reaserchers 1 full upgraded lab gives the same 8 reaserchers but only takes 2 building slots once you account for making the resource for it.

 

[Chthon]

I disagree about upgraded building not he worth it. 4 basic labs take 4 building slots and give 8 reaserchers 1 full upgraded lab gives the same 8 reaserchers but only takes 2 building slots once you account for making the resource for it.

That's true, but it is hard to quantify the opportunity cost of the rare resources. Thus it isn't 3 either, but somewhere between 3 and 4.

 

[MarKr]

Ecumenopolis


-15% Habitability from the original planet class

As it's a big city planet, I would say that the weather on the outside wouldn't modify the habitability of the planet. So, I would say that a flat %60 habitability would be better (And can be enhanced with the repetable technology).

I was thinking about this too - not making it an "ideal place to live" after all it is a planet focused on production without any proper greenery. Air pollution would be substantial (probably even with some "air filtering" tech) and the "concrete jungle" as far as an eye can see...I can immagine it would probably be pretty depressing place to live for a longer period of time.

Also the idea to give some rare resource upkeep to the Ecu districts doesn't sound bad.

 

[Zergor]

While I really don't like -15% from original, I can work with the idea of low habitability. Maybe 60% for all species which can be patched with having all the habitability techs.

 

[permeakra]

I never denied ecumenopolis's awesome power, I meant why never upgrade buildings on normal planets, before you get ecus or if you cannot get them.

Early on you don't want advanced buildings because you simply don't have pops, tech and minerals. Tech is at premium at this time and opening advanced buildings and resources for them can wait, critical tech like energy hubs or better ship classes takes precedence.
Midgame you still don't have much pops and minerals (if you do, you are simply bad at spending it) and have a lot of unfilled planets, so most likely you still don't have planets with more than 75-80 pops
Lategame you have an ecu or several running, which makes building-based alloy and CG production obsolete and frees a lot of slots for basic research labs, while still having relatively low pop count on most planets. I'm yet to see a situation when I actually need advanced amenity or crime-fighting buildings, and first upgrade of temples and culture sites provide you with OK sources of unity.

Empire-wide building slot deficit comes very lategame, often after you are already on your road to victory anyway. It can be solved by advanced buildings (it still is inefficient use of pops, but pops might be in excess at this stage of game). Or extra slots can be opened by continued expansion via genocidal conquest and habitats (and thus you can ignore advanced buildings completely). Or, if the empire has insane mineral income (but that's rare) both could be used at same time.

Besides, the cost of running advanced buildings is not limited to building slots. Running T3 research lab means that in addition to 8 researchers you also need 3 additional pops running a mining district and a refinery and recursive upkeep cost for them. I can see them useful for hiveminds if they didn't get Fen Habbanis and I can see them useful for megacorps with little planets and a lot of branch offices for mineral income. But regular empire employing resettlement can perfectly run without them untill very late game. Can't say beyond 2450 though, but you should win by that time.

 

[RoverStorm]

Empire-wide building slot deficit comes very lategame, often after you are already on your road to victory anyway.

Now this I don't fully understand. I constantly run into building slot deficits early. I could see an argument for not upgrading to T3 because those provides 8 jobs when you only need 5 for the next building slot, but a building only providing two jobs will constantly leave unemployed on a planet. This is unless you build excess districts (which provides 1-2 jobs each), which is very bad since it increases your Empire Sprawl.

Running T3 research lab means that in addition to 8 researchers you also need 3 additional pops running a mining district and a refinery and recursive upkeep cost for them.

Fair point, but that still more planet efficient than using T1 buildings. Each T1 research building provides 2 jobs, while each T3 provides 8 at the cost of a second building slot and a mining district (assuming building upkeep costs and mining output don't reduce this dramatically). A full research planet is therefore also requiring an entire mining world of upkeep (not including C.G. production since that is the exact same no matter the method). But that's it. If you only use T1, you need 4 planets dedicated to research. If we're talking max size planets, that is 60 wasted Empire Sprawl that could've been used for more resources.

Naturally this is all assuming you don't have ecu's, since they are just better than any combo of buildings and districts that a normal planet could provide. 10 housing AND 10 foundry jobs for ONE district?!? A normal T3 building requires 2 districts, which gets at best 9 housing (10 with agrarian idyll, 11-12 ish as hive mind), 2 mining jobs (3 as hive mind), 2 building slots that give 8 research job and 1 refinery job. The math says screw normal worlds, ecu's are where it's at.

Habitats are interesting in their...research districts. Not convinced they're worth, but I haven't run the numbers.

 

[permeakra]

Now this I don't fully understand. I constantly run into building slot deficits early. I could see an argument for not upgrading to T3 because those provides 8 jobs when you only need 5 for the next building slot, but a building only providing two jobs will constantly leave unemployed on a planet.

1st, moderate (<3-5 units) unemployment and overcrowding are good. They create emigration pressure saving you the effort and credits of manual resettlement.
2nd, you are likely to have several extra jobs on the planet (like domestic servants or merchants) and a few mandatory buildings (t2 temple and capitals) provide quite a lot of jobs.
3) There are also 'free' jobs (domestic servants, merchants) and, as you said, districts.
4) The rest can be balanced with commercial zones, if the unemployment really bothers you.

Naturally this is all assuming you don't have ecu's,

Of course you have ecu's, why you won't? I mean, they are must have in the current patch, and mid-late game you actually want some. The fact that I don't consider them broken doesn't mean that I consider them not worthy taking. It just means that Gestalt alternative also are damn good and the difference in relative power is of no larger scale than other 'broken' things current patch provides. Gaias are underpowered, though, and could use a buff.

Balancing planetary management and advanced planets in particular beyond what we currently have while keeping meaningful differences is not an easy task. In my opinion that would require significant rework in planetary management before we go for such fine-tuning. In current model buildings and districts play overlapping roles and their interactions are additive. This screws people all over because finite and low number of building slots causes multiple scaling issues, making accurate balancing incredibly hard.

Habitats are interesting in their...research districts. Not convinced they're worth, but I haven't run the numbers.

In terms of sprawl-efficiency they are slightly better than T1 building-based research planets if you go for slight overcrowding and hopefully reduced housing usage. I don't think any non-science habitats are worth it, but people do come with occasional odd situational builds.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

While I really don't like -15% from original, I can work with the idea of low habitability. Maybe 60% for all species which can be patched with having all the habitability techs.

Well, I wanted to evade the case where tombworlds are perfect ecumenopolis candidates but maybe it can be dealed separately, by restricting arcology project to non-tombworlds.

So yeah, straight 60% (or something like it) habitability seems reasonable.

 

[Maeltne]

It isn't necessary that these worlds being balanced against each other; but that hive minds/robot gestalts, and normal empires are balanced against each other with these taken into account.

It's fine that Ecumenpolis are stronger than gaea/machine/hive worlds; as long as the empires that have access to them are balanced with that in mind. That being said I don't think this is the case.

 

[Retry]

Well, I wanted to evade the case where tombworlds are perfect ecumenopolis candidates but maybe it can be dealed separately, by restricting arcology project to non-tombworlds.

So yeah, straight 60% (or something like it) habitability seems reasonable.

Yeah, just have it so you can't go straight from tomb-world to Ecumenopolis, just like you can't go Tomb->Gaia in one step.

 

[Secret Master]

True story about hive worlds:

I terraformed all my planets to hive worlds, then I noticed I had no livestock left and a food shortage. I bought some slaves, and then they were gone in a few weeks/months.

It was then I realized that the game is deadly serious about hive worlds attacking non-hive populations. I thought it was just flavor text.

Lesson learned: move the livestock to the habitats before terraforming.

 

[LeanneKaos]

1st, moderate (<3-5 units) unemployment and overcrowding are good. They create emigration pressure saving you the effort and credits of manual resettlement.
2nd, you are likely to have several extra jobs on the planet (like domestic servants or merchants) and a few mandatory buildings (t2 temple and capitals) provide quite a lot of jobs.
3) There are also 'free' jobs (domestic servants, merchants) and, as you said, districts.
4) The rest can be balanced with commercial zones, if the unemployment really bothers you.

Other than districts, none of that really applies to Gestalts.

Of course you have ecu's, why you won't? I mean, they are must have in the current patch, and mid-late game you actually want some. The fact that I don't consider them broken doesn't mean that I consider them not worthy taking.

I don't have any because I'm playing a gestalt and Fen Habbanis didn't spawn

And when an ascension perk falls into the "Always Take" category it suggests to me that either that perk is too strong or every other alternative (relative to it's timing) are too weak. With a heavy lean towards the first option (but this might be because I tend to hate power-creep locked behind DLCs more than I hate nerfbats.)

So the assumption that you will have Ecus suggests there's a problem somewhere.

 

[Foefaller]

I think the crux of the issue with Ecumenopoli is rare resources.

I mean, for me getting all those jobs without any rare resource upkeep is the biggest single draw for them, and it fits that some of the same people who say they are fine (relative to Machine/Hive worlds) are also saying there is no reason (for a non-gestalt at least) to ever upgrade anything to any level that requires rare resources.

So answer is probably either "Ecumenopolis districts need a rare resource upkeep." Or "rare resources need to be reworked into the system in a way where the Ecumenopolis-spaming empire wants them and is using them as much as the Agrain Idyll one."

 

[permeakra]

Other than districts, none of that really applies to Gestalts.

Gestalts have much better basic districts and have shorter production chain (they don't use CG and this means a lot). For them making advanced buildings makes sense, because associated costs are smaller and they are needed in smaller numbers to begin with.

So the assumption that you will have Ecus suggests there's a problem somewhere.

It is, but i don't think that problem is with ecu's per se. There is a lot of issues with district/building/job/housing system and some pretty absurd exploits. The core idea is great, but the implementation leaves much to be desired. Ecu's simply make it most obvious, so people blame ecu's for being broken. They are no more broken than system as a whole.

 

[Chthon]

I think the crux of the issue with Ecumenopoli is rare resources.

I mean, for me getting all those jobs without any rare resource upkeep is the biggest single draw for them, and it fits that some of the same people who say they are fine (relative to Machine/Hive worlds) are also saying there is no reason (for a non-gestalt at least) to ever upgrade anything to any level that requires rare resources.

So answer is probably either "Ecumenopolis districts need a rare resource upkeep." Or "rare resources need to be reworked into the system in a way where the Ecumenopolis-spaming empire wants them and is using them as much as the Agrain Idyll one."

I don't understand why people are so adverse to making and using rare resources. Sure, use the non-resource intensive stuff first, but if you want to maximize a planet, rare resources are worth using.