Thoughts about advanced planet classes (Gaia, Ecumenopolis, etc)

[ragehavoc]

1)minerals are limited 2)refineries use building slot and 3)refineries consume minerals. This means that tier-3 buidlings might appear to be slot-efficient, but in practice their efficiency is not spectacular, it's just moderately above what tier-1 provides. They are, however, mineral-inefficient and minerals are needed to keep population happy (consumer goods) and fleets big (alloys).

I can see advanced buildings working for a megacorp with tons of branch offices and few planets, but regular empires? not so much. In fact I had a few games with no advanced buildings and was better than Glavius AI on commodore. But in a game where I tried to run advanced buildings, I hit mineral deficit hard and fast (with maxed mining districts).

You must have some terrible luck, i am usually swimming in minerals even without max mining districts and i typically play on .25 habital worlds using GAI

 

[klopkr]

I feel like robots and hives should have their own ecuminopolis competitor instead of trying to fit ecumpenolises into the hive/machine/gaia world paradigm.

I can picture machine worlds having special machine space stations.

And maybe hives can core most of their world for housing to create hollow worlds.

 

[Highlordelliot]

if the other worlds aren't as strong as ecumenopolis they could be given boosts.
Gaia gets boosts to happiness amenities government attraction and a guaranteed large size.
Machine worlds can give boosts to upkeep research and alloy production.
Hive worlds could act as a sort of physical brain or giant synapse for the hive allowing it to run the hive empire more efficiently as a whole.

 

[Badesumofu]

Upgraded buildings are the key to an advanced economy. Suggesting that they are bad value is flat-out wrong.

 

[Novacat]

I like how ringworlds are not even brought up in this list. I like to imagine that OP believes they are so terrible that they are not even considered an advanced planet class.

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

Ecus without normal planets are worth nothing, apart from exploitative market schemes, while Gaia planets without Ecus are completely viable, bugs aside.

Well, technically, an Ecumenopolis can be self-sufficient in energy via trade value, and food by using livestock (they graze on the street trash or something). And if you have a matter decompressor handy, you can theoretically get by without using the galactic market OR having normal planets at all

Many people talking about the alleged overpoweredness of Ecus are actually basing that on rerolling their game until they are in the First League area.

But this part I very much agree with.

Tellingly, noone has yet brought up the major difference between hive/gaia/machine worlds and ecumenopoleis; the former are advanced terraforming options, while the latter is a decision (really a build option, since it takes the form of an item on the planet's build queue) requiring you to do the following:

- Paying 200 influence,
- Paying 20k minerals,
- Clearing all blockers (usually requiring either terraforming or tech)
- Saturating the planet with city districts,
- Sacrificing all deposits and beneficial planetary features

Those requirements are no pushover. And sure, I know, you just need a few of these. In fact, if you roll Fen Habbanis, you're probably tempted to skip the ascension perk altogether, because that planet alone can provide the 250 metallurgist jobs you're looking for- and yes, alloys is the main point of ecus and they're pretty terrific at producing alloys.

To sum up, ecus are more costly, more specialized, and leaves you without an advanced terraforming option for the remaining 90% of your planets unless you take a second ascension perk for your trouble. Are they good? Yes. Worth the perk? Absolutely. In need of a nerf? Not so sure. There's no question that machine empires are terrible right now, but that's not because of ecus or machine worlds. Conversely, hives are in a pretty solid place and I'm not convinced that their lack of access to ecumenopoleis put hives at any kind of unfair disadvantage.

With that said, I'd definitely give Fen Habbanis a wack of the nerfbat. Make it size 16 for starters, and up the cost of clearing those blockers a bit.

 

[LeanneKaos]

Most basic buildings host 2 jobs at most, except for commercial zone that hosts horrible clerk jobs. You don't actually want upgraded buildings because they use limited minerals inefficiently except for 1st upgrade of temple (4 jobs) and system capital (8 jobs). meaning that all buildings will host total of 2*14+4+8=40 jobs at most. And you have 35+ extra pops to work in districts.

... what did you say about working all the jobs? I think typical planets have around 14-18 districts, i.e. about 28-36 jobs from districts so it works just nice =).

You must be getting lucky, or I'm getting really unlucky. I'm usually sitting about 10-12 districts these days unless I build a machine world.

Not sure where you're getting 'limited minerals' from either; even with a Manufacturing focus *and* the bad rate on Machine drone jobs (3:1 consumption rate) *and* Assembly plants eating more of my minerals (and on top of that, apparently I'm getting shafted on my average district count) I'm often swimming in minerals... at least until I unlock the upgraded buildings that I'm supposed to not have enough minerals to want to use.

 

[RoverStorm]

I like how ringworlds are not even brought up in this list. I like to imagine that OP believes they are so terrible that they are not even considered an advanced planet class.

The main point was really more for specialists. The OP seemed to focus heavily on an end-game planet's ability to make alloys/science, and the special bonuses they get.

Don't get me wrong, ring worlds are actually not bad. Hive Minds in particular make unbelievably good use of them, since they get 33% more jobs from non-city districts and the best housing buildings/districts in the game. They're just....pointless if you already make enough money and food due to finding the perfect farming planets already. Why make a ringworld when you can upgrade your already sufficient farming planet to a Gaia world (or Hive World) for far cheaper and less time?

The real killer for ring worlds is Empire Sprawl. 50 districts on 4 planets with no district restrictions sounds amazing until you realize that's an additional 200 Empire Sprawl. That is +60% tech cost, +100% tradition cost, +200% Leader Cost/upkeep, and +200% Campaign/Strategic Edict cost (and you CANNOT reduce Strategic Edict cost with admin eff.). Being able to handle those expenses basically requires a massive economy to begin with. In particular, leader upkeep growth is actually exponential with empire size, since you need new governors every time you expand outside of a previous sector yet the upkeep affects ALL leaders. So in the largest galaxy sizes, your governor cost will eventually not be worth the resource output they provide. Although that said Ringworlds are potentially the most governor efficient option, since you could cram maybe two dozen ringworlds in a single sector under the same governor.

Again, Hive Minds are able to offset a lot of that simply because they get 33% more jobs from rural districts. Combined with the most efficient (non-urban) housing in the game (go away rogue servitors, you're not real gestalt, come back when you can cry like the other machine empires), and also access to Hive Worlds, and Hive Minds are unbelievably rich in sheer raw resources. Yeah they suck at specialist stuff, but they don't get any particular penalty to research (unlike alloys), and a Hive can always sell their bottomless pockets to buy the alloys they need.

 

[RoverStorm]

I just had a horrifying realization. Hive Minds can use ringworlds to generate minerals. Unemployed Hive pops give +1 minerals (maybe affected by +25% mineral building, not sure on that front). And a ringworld can potentially cram in more housing than any other type of planet. In addition, the sheer number of pops on a single planet will create a LOT of synapse drones with the prosperity tree (1 every 20 in fact). Slap on a ministry of culture and you've got quite the unity and mineral generating ringworld segment. They also need absolutely nothing except food and energy (conveniently provided by other ringworld segments) to do this. They might need a few amenity boosts from traditions, traits, tech, etc. though.

I'm way too tired to crunch the numbers. Is that all a even remotely viable plan, assuming you can afford to set it up?

 

[Jmes Snowscoran]

I'm way too tired to crunch the numbers. Is that all a even remotely viable plan, assuming you can afford to set it up?

I don't think anything ringworld-related is competitive except to use any segments you get from FEs as efficiently as you can.

And 1 mineral per pop doesn't sound very impressive at all, especially since you shouldn't be having any mineral income issues as a Hive Mind in the late game in the first place.

 

[bobucles]

Hive Minds can use ringworlds to generate minerals

Organic hive minds can already transform every other planet into a hive world, which removes the district restrictions on a planet (not planet size, just the color squares). They already have all the minerals they can ever need, but they pay by losing the option to build ecumenopolis.

 

[happyscrub]

Hive Minds get +50% jobs from resource districts. If we follow your logic, then 1 ecumenopolis district has +400% jobs. So 25 ecumenopolis becomes what, 125 ecumenopolis? Seems overpowered to me.

Have no idea how you came up with 400

 

[RoverStorm]

Hive Minds get +50% jobs from resource districts.

Not entirely accurate. Farming, Mining, and Generator districts provide +1 respective jobs each. No other resource district gets this (namely habitat power districts, science districts, and ecumenopolis's alloy districts). Also where the hell did +50% jobs get turned into +400%? Anyways, no, hive minds get no special bonus on ecumenopolis's.

 

[Novacat]

Don't get me wrong, ring worlds are actually not bad. Hive Minds in particular make unbelievably good use of them, since they get 33% more jobs from non-city districts and the best housing buildings/districts in the game.

The problem with ringworlds in their current form is that no one will never need that much energy and food, especially since all your normal worlds will be generating stupid amounts of both even if you are not focusing on it.

 

[Secret Master]

And yes, the lack of a Gestalt Analog of Ecumenopolis is hurting Machine and Hive empires, but just because it's OP, not because it's competing against Machine / Hive worlds.

It's worth pointing out that hives and machine worlds can colonize or conquer existing ecumenpolis. My last run as a hive mind saw me complete the Fen Habbanis precursor chain. No perk required.

Damn thing took forever to clear out, but filling it up and manufacturing tons of alloys was not a problem. It's not like I needed consumer goods as a hive mind...

Encums are overrated. They just look so awesome because they reach higher pop caps. But the jobs not as much efficient as hive worlds.

Except that you can concentrate a ton of alloy production on a single world without using motes and crystals. Then you stack a ton of clerks using commercial buildings, and you basically have alloy foundries the requisite housing, and special buildings. No amenities needed from entertainers or any other source.

 

[Chthon]

It's ringworlds that need a fix. All those alloys and all of that time for 200 districts split among housing, energy, and agricultural.

I would agree with that. I feel that ringworlds should be split between housing, energy, alloys, and agricultural. Can't mine minerals, but you can smelt them big time.

 

[Senstrae]

I feel like Ringworlds should get a bonus to energy production since you could potentially exempt solar collectors from simulated day/night cycles. Maybe the same could be argued for agriculture. Regardless, I think they're due specialized districts instead of the standard districts minus mining. For a 100% habitability world, they compete with Gaias, which also give bonus happiness and production. For a world that can house a significant population, they compete with Ecumenopolis, which provide housing with more district efficiency, and that's before considering the city world's other strengths. Even if Ringworlds on their own aren't bad, they're currently outshined by better late game alternatives.

As for Ecumenopolis and nerfs, I feel like their districts should cost 1 strategic resource (compare against the 2 strategic resources required for a T3 building with 8 jobs). Foundry = Volatile Mote, Industrial = Rare Crystal, Leisure = Exotic Gas.

I don't know if other nerfs are needed. You still want Ecumenopolis to have an advantage since they cost an ascension slot if you haven't happened across Fen Habbanis. Which as an aside, maybe Fen Habbanis should be due for a nerf, since it has a clear advantage over other precursor rewards.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

Thank you all for your contribution. First, I'd like to clear some points

Ecumenopolis do have district restrictions.

In that case Hive and Machine Worlds do have them as well: they can't build any districts rather than standard ones, just like ecumenopolis can't have any districts rather than its special ones. But in both cases the number of these districts isn't restricted by planet features which is a similar advantage.

The only thing I had to say is that ecumenopoli cannot produce any raw resources. They require other planets to feed them.

Apriori, I consider all resource production jobs equal in value. Their real value, of course, depends on the current market conditions. But I believe it's a fair first approximation

Also Hive worlds synergize with Hive Minds. Hive Minds get 33% extra jobs from districts.

25 planet would be 25 districts + 33% + 5% from planet specialization + 25% building + anything else I'm forgetting. When a hive world is fully specialized, it's like turning that 25 world into a 40 world (25+63%). That's huge compared to just 20%(plus what ever ) bonus that Encums get.

Encums are overrated. They just look so awesome because they reach higher pop caps. But the jobs not as much efficient as hive worlds.

You forgot to take into consideration that ecumenopolis districts provide 10 jobs while hive minds get only 3.

I like how ringworlds are not even brought up in this list. I like to imagine that OP believes they are so terrible that they are not even considered an advanced planet class.

Well, you are absolutely right. I may bring them up later, though.

I feel like robots and hives should have their own ecuminopolis competitor instead of trying to fit ecumpenolises into the hive/machine/gaia world paradigm.

That's a valid approach, but the thing is that Hive and Machine Worlds are thematically similar to Ecumenopolises: planet wide infrastructure allowing to effectively produce the resources.

So the way I see it, Gaias have to be generally good planets with the best raw resource extraction possibilities for non-gestalts and some specific advantage.

Now let me share my ideas about advanced planet classes rebalance. I'll add it to the OP, eventually.

Gaia


100% Habitability
+5% Biological Pop Happiness
+10% Resources from Jobs
+15% Amenities
+10% Unity
Extra planetary features
Resort worlds synergy

Having unrestricted districts would seems strange for a Gaia world, while extra planetary features are totally in gaias theme. Maybe all the deposits get a level up (those who gave 1 district will give 2) and additional rare resources spawns after the terraformation with a chance of getting positive planetary modifier. Bonus amenities is a secondary happiness enchantment and unity just seems to be appropriate. As for resort world synergy, I would do something like this:

Resort World


No habitability bonus
No planet size restriction
Other planets receives happiness bonus, dependent on the Resort World's amount of amenities.

This will not only synergize well with Gaia, both for extra amenities and habitability, but also give intention to actually develop Resorts, creating lots of amenities producing jobs there as seems thematically appropriate.

Hive World


100% Habitability if Hive-Minded
0% Habitability if not Hive-Minded
+10% Resources from Jobs
Districts Unrestricted by Features
+10% Resources from Worker Jobs
Special admin-cap-efficient Districts for Minerals, Energy, Food and Housing
Free defensive armies

Here we have synergy with hivemind ability to have more jobs per district and their raw resource production focus. Hive World would outclass Gaia which seems reasonable as it actually explote all the biosphere and lithosphere of the planet rather than just make the nature optimal for life as well as Hive Minds should have intention to absorb even gaias into themselves. Free armies represent the fact that hive world is a living creature which is part of a hive mind and have intention and possibilities to protect itself.

Machine World


+15% Resources from Jobs
0% Habitability
No Agriculture Districts.
Generator and Minig Districts Unrestricted by Features
Special admin-cap-efficient Districts for Minerals, Energy, Alloys and Housing

+25% Defense army health
Orbital Bombardment Damage: -25%

Machine Worlds have huge resemblance to Hive Worlds. The differences is that machines are less focused on raw resources and more on self-sustaning production cycle. Also being part of the machine consciousness they are hard to capture but in a different way.

Ecumenopolis


-15% Habitability from the original planet class
+20% Specialist Output
Special admin-cap-efficient Districts
Districts Unrestricted by Features

Optimized for the population density and the effectiveness of production, ecumenopolis isn't the best place to live. Making the habitability dependent on the original planet class creates an intention to invest into terraforming before creating an ecumenopolis. Also habitability technologies become more important.

 

[permeakra]

Have no idea how you came up with 400

Normal organic planetary districts provide 1-2 jobs. Ecus provide 10. 10 = 2 +400%

Having unrestricted districts would seems strange for a Gaia world, while extra planetary features are totally in gaias theme.

Not if you are talking about unrestricted farming. I would say that all gaias (natural and artificial) could use some special planetary features similar in spirit to dimension portal.

Balance of Hiveworld is a more complex problem, because you should not judge hiveworld vs ecu vs gaias, but hiveworld + hive habitats vs ecu/gaia + habitats. Gestalts have much better habitats than organics, and so they mostly want planets for minerals. Hiveworlds also allows to save up to two building slots per planet in comparison with normal planets, so they are a bit more useful than it is immediately apparent.

 

[Zergor]

-15% Habitability from the original planet class

Not a fan of that because that would make it complex.
First that would mean the optimal would be to terraform to gaia then create an ecumenopolis on top which feel useless micro, second that mean that ecumenopolis would have to remember what they are, third what if you want to change after ? How can you terraform an arid ecumenopolis to a continental one ?
Basically that feel like many complications and the 100% habitability is not the main problem of ecumenopolis but indeed their insanely efficient production.

Also like a few others, I'd like Gaia world to have unlimited agriculture to be a sort of inverted mirror of machine world.