Thoughts about advanced planet classes (Gaia, Ecumenopolis, etc)

[Vitruvian Guar]

Since the 2.2 dev diaries I felt that the new update will bring huge imbalance into this aspect of game. I've wrote about it in multiple separated threads and now I'd like to structure my thoughts on the topic as well as get some insights from the community.

Gaia


100% Habitability
+5% Biological Pop Happiness
+10% Resources from Jobs

These planets are meant to be paradise worlds with ideal conditions and abudance of natural resources. I can see gaias as a perfect candidate for resort worlds or raw resource extraction for non-gestalt empires. Too bad that resort worlds have no synergy with gaias.

Machine World


+10% Resources from Jobs
0% Habitability
No Agriculture Districts.
Generator and Minig Districts Unrestricted by Features

Introduced in the synthetic down, these worlds are meant to be gaia analog for machine empires. They sacrifice the habitability for extra resource acces. The problem with the machine worlds is that now they have to somehow compete not only with gaias but with ecumenopolises as well.

Hive World


100% Habitability if Hive-Minded
0% Habitability if not Hive-Minded
+10% Resources from Jobs
Districts Unrestricted by Features

Intoduced in the recent update, Hive Worlds are literally hive mind version of machine worlds they suffer from the same problem which is...

Ecumenopolis

100% Habitability
+20% Specialist Output
Special admin-cap-efficient Districts
Districts Unrestricted by Features

Whatever other advanced worlds do, ecumenopolis does it better. Perfect habitability of gaia with the districts uncapped by planetary features of machine and hive worlds, but these districts are even better and pops working there have even better productiion bonus. Also ecumenopolis requires less technologies to be created. They are so good that gestalt empires suffer from the inability to build ecumenopolises.

So. What can be done to balance the advanced planet classes? I have some ideas, but this post already took too long so I'd like to hear yours first.

 

[happyscrub]

Ecumenopolis do have district restrictions. Hiveminds and Machine worlds are far better in making raw materials because of more raw districts

 

[beckermt]

I haven't read the OP yet, but I just want to say: Dang, that is a nicely formatted post.

Edit: The only thing I had to say is that ecumenopoli cannot produce any raw resources. They require other planets to feed them.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

The comparison to Ecumenopolis isn't entirely fair, as the other planet types are something that work always, everywhere and you can make your every planet those. Sure, you COULD make every planet you have into an ecumenopolis, but that would be impossible to support without any base resource production. Ecumenopolis is whole different thing to any of the other special planets, more akin megastructure with specialized purpose.
Some manufacturing-specialized stuff for gestalts would be nice, tho. I remember in dev diaries it was said that machine empires would have better alloy production than the others - and they did in 2.2.1 but others were soon buffed to be just as good, so they lost their alloy niche. If organics can make a planet that's super efficient at manufacturing, surely synthetics could too.

 

[Mastikator]

A single Ecumenopolis foundry district will house 10 pops and give them all metallurgist jobs.

Compare a single Foundry Arcology
10 housing
10 metallurgist jobs
-5 energy
1 district
+20% efficiency

To a single planet city districts (with all available upgrades) + 1 nano alloy foundry
8 housing
2 clerk jobs
8 metallurgist jobs
-8 energy
-2 volatile motes
1 district
1 building slot
+5% efficiency (if foundry world), +15% if foundry gaia world

The Ecumenopolis beats specialist gaia worlds in
a) job efficiency
b) number of jobs
c) number of pops
d) upkeep
e) all of the above by a landslide

IMO Ecumenopolis should be more expensive (-12 energy per district maybe) AND gaia worlds need a big buff, something like +1 worker strata job per district, -10% housing & amenities needs in addition to what it already gets.

 

[Piotrzeci]

Ecumenopolis can't produce any raw resources, but yes, it is far better than any other special planet.

 

[permeakra]

Well, aside from introduction of resort world synergy... Planets with biospheres have, you know, biospheres. Which should result in increased biology science production. Gaias should be especially good for it. They also can produce biomatter that might have other uses than food, like production of consumer goods. We could also increase rate of useful rare planet features, since ecu erases them by definition.

All in all, I find Stellaris model of worlds quite wonky. Aside from inability to colonize barren worlds (why? We can make habitats, why we can't colonize a moon?) the nine biomes are questionable. Personally in the new system I would drop them completely, moving their functions to planetary features.

 

[RoverStorm]

So the trick here is hive/machine world's are theoretically unrivaled in raw resource production (food, energy, but most importantly minerals). An ecumenopolis is incapable of producing minerals or energy (except trade, which can indirectly give energy or minerals via con. Goods.), and hydroponic farms are a waste on ecumenopolises. Hive world's (and anytime I say hive I also mean machine) can still be used for any resource, and in fact its ideal to make all planets hive world's (or Gaia for rogue servitude biotrophies). An ecumenopolis cannot support itself without plenty of other planets supporting it. Even Gaia worlds, the normal version of hive worlds, are restricted by planet features, which makes it impossible to get a dedicated, say, mining world unless you already had one. Hive world's can turn a planet with zero mining districts into a world with nothing but mining districts. And unlike Gaia worlds, non - hive mind pops can't survive in hive worlds, making it take a hell of a lot longer to integrate hive worlds before they are productive. A conquered Gaia world or ecumenopolis can be instantly used for your economy, no matter who you are.

There is also the issue of resource buffs, but this is more of a systemic Gestalt issue. They (besides rogue servitors) are technical capped at 75 stability, depriving them of about 15% production. They also lack the ministry of production (ALSO not including rogue servitors) which is another 15% production for alloys. Supposedly to make up, gestalt can give a +20% to complex drones at a -20% to simple drones, or vice versus.

On the road, so not a full answer, but I'll return to this thread later. (No I'm not driving).

 

[GonDragon]

I don't really see how Ecumenopolis compite against Gaia Worlds... I mean, yes, the Ecumenopolis is totally broken and OP, but I see the Gaia Worlds as "Raw Resource Extractors" and the Ecumenopolis as a "Raw Resource Processor".

I mean, if I had to choose, I would have 2 Gaias (To extract minerals and food, and create a little bit of science) and 1 Ecumenopolis (Alloy / Consumer Goods, and Energy via Trade Value)... Or even 3 Gaias (Food/Minerals/Energy and use the buildings to generate Trade Value) and 1 Ecumenopolis (Alloy / Consumer Goods, and lots of Science).

I would say that, Ecumenopolis isn't competing with Gaia / Machine / Hive worlds... but is competing with Ring Worlds.

And yes, the lack of a Gestalt Analog of Ecumenopolis is hurting Machine and Hive empires, but just because it's OP, not because it's competing against Machine / Hive worlds.

 

[Zergor]

Personally I would have loved if advanced planet went further in their specific role/trope.

Gaia should have unrestricted farmland and probably give a bit more happiness (like 10%).
Machine and Hiveworld seem ok but I would add a buff to housing because those planets are made to hose a lot of robots/drones.
That would make them a bit more competitive.
Ecumenopolis clearly need a nerf compared to others. I would probably make that districts consume rare ressourses. This would tune down a bit their efficiency.

 

[happyscrub]

Also Hive worlds synergize with Hive Minds. Hive Minds get 33% extra jobs from districts.

25 planet would be 25 districts + 33% + 5% from planet specialization + 25% building + anything else I'm forgetting. When a hive world is fully specialized, it's like turning that 25 world into a 40 world (25+63%). That's huge compared to just 20%(plus what ever ) bonus that Encums get.

Encums are overrated. They just look so awesome because they reach higher pop caps. But the jobs not as much efficient as hive worlds.

 

[Nirmara]

Ecumenopolis clearly need a nerf compared to others. I would probably make that districts consume rare ressourses. This would tune down a bit their efficiency.

This at the very least. Not having to provide strategic resources for ecumenopolis districts save a lot of the input cost required for processing resources compared to using buildings on a regular planets.

As for requiring other planets, by selling alloy to buy foods and minerals, an ecumenopolis can be auto-sufficient. Of course, I would not recommend turning every planet in the galaxy into an ecumenopolis, but a very tall empire can certainly do it and be well off.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

As for requiring other planets, by selling alloy to buy foods and minerals, an ecumenopolis can be auto-sufficient. Of course, I would not recommend turning every planet in the galaxy into an ecumenopolis, but a very tall empire can certainly do it and be well off.

Someone should do some science about this, but I'd guess it wouldn't return much profit and most of its production would go into buying its raw resources. You would basically create a infinitely looping economy that doesn't produce anything out of its cycle. Buy minerals -> convert them to alloys -> sell alloys -> buy minerals and so on. You could get this process more profitable with huge trade value, but it would nonetheless be more economic to produce the minerals by yourself instead of buying them.

 

[Cynoid]

As long as you : 1) have a use for Alloy/CG (which is to say, always) ; 2) are not basking in very large amounts of crystal/motes ; then Ecumenopolis is always the best way to go, since a single Arcology provides more Metallurgist/Artisan jobs as a Tier3 Forge/Factory, and costing less in upkeep (since you do not need a refinery and the mining jobs/disctrict to feed the refinery).

 

[Kami-sama]

Ecumenopolis worlds can be massive trade/alloy/consumer goods powerhouses and are certainly better than other special worlds but like other people said, only if you have enough food, minerals and crystals to support them (energy costs can be offset with with the trade value you get from residential districts). Here's my latest fully developed ecumenopolis in a game when I was lucky enough to find a size 25 planet. It's specialized in trade and using foundry/industrial districts when I couldn't build more residential ones without causing future unemployment. Output might be larger than normal since I finished the biological ascension path and made my main species robust, erudite, very strong and sedentary.

 

[Losttruppen]

Natural Gaia worlds have much higher district, strategic resource, and planet modifier spawn chances. Unfortunately terraforming to Gaia right now actually removes districts and a lot of good planet modifiers and doesn't do anything to the strategic resource count. This makes a little sense from a realism perspective, but has awful consequences on gameplay, making terraforming much worse than gene-modding, xenophilia, or robot production(if they get fixed).

In 1000 star galaxies I usually only find about 1-3 planets worth terraforming to Gaia and picking the ascension perk. I like that it makes Gaias a bit more special now that it isn't just a tech available to everyone, but I think the rewards need to be much higher at an increase in cost, time, or some other restriction so it doesn't become a no brainer to turn everything into a Gaia.

I don't really see them as advanced worlds though, in the same sense as machine, hive, or ecumenopoli, as you can start the game with them as your preferred planet type. More like an option for going for a very tall quality over quantity playstyle or just a nice bonus when you find a wild one.

 

[permeakra]

Large ecus are pretty terrible for a simple reason that they are still limited to 16 building slots many of which have to be used exclusively to handle population needs (or you have to dedicate some districts to that). Yes, their districts are awesome, but those 300+ pops could unlock 40 building slots on other planets.

Small ecus are awesome, but annoyingly planets of size below 8 are pretty rare.

 

[Bouchart]

It's ringworlds that need a fix. All those alloys and all of that time for 200 districts split among housing, energy, and agricultural.

 

[Mastikator]

Large ecus are pretty terrible for a simple reason that they are still limited to 16 building slots many of which have to be used exclusively to handle population needs (or you have to dedicate some districts to that). Yes, their districts are awesome, but those 300+ pops could unlock 40 building slots on other planets.

Small ecus are awesome, but annoyingly planets of size below 8 are pretty rare.

Don't need those slots. A size 25 ecumenopolis with 25 foundry arcology districts will have 250 housing and 250 metalurgist jobs converting a total of 3000 minerals into 1500, plus production bonuses (which will be higher than any other planet).
That could free up ALL of the alloy foundry buildings in all of your other planets and still have more production than any empire could ever need.

Edit- For anyone wondering "so what?"
To produce that much alloys outside of an ecumenopolis you would need 31 nano alloy foundries and one alloy foundry. That would constitute 32 building slots AND 62 volatile motes per month.

A single 25 size ecumenopolis with only foundry or industry districts will free up 32 building slots on your other planets.
This is NOT counting building slots on the ecumenopolis which you can also make use of if you have communal or byzantine beurocracy or some other housing need requirement reducing modifier. (and even if you don't you could just use paradise domes)

It really is in a class of its own. There is nothing that can come close.

I personally think the hive world should be the gold standard, meaning a nerf of some kind to the ecumenopolis and a buff to gaia worlds is the medicine we need.

 

[Optimizt]

The other main advantage of Ecumenopoli is that they save you on valuable building slots; a foundry or industrial arcology gives you ten jobs. On any other planet, that's 5 of the actual building (i.e. fabricator) or 2 of the T2 version + 1 slot for the refinery to fuel it assuming you want to break even . Instead, with the arcology, those are all now research labs. I'm not sure how they can balance this other than making the arcologies require comparable special resources to run, but that still doesn't solve the fact that you need an ecumenopolis or two (or three) to minmax your building slots.