Those darned Teutons!

[unmerged(46403)]

I think it's the "less of a pain" thing that we don't see eye-to-eye on... I don't mind the knightly orders in general, but I think in spite of your efforts, the events are still a major pain, and definitely too much of a pain to leave in there in their current form.

And yeah, as a matter of fact I did eventually delete this event... but that's really not a solution. If I'm posting about a problem to the beta forum, I would much rather hear that you are going to do something about it, than merely get advice on how I can fix it myself. Especially since in this case, I really didn't fix it - I don't want to cut the Teutons out completely, I just want them to make more sense, and to be a bit less harmful.

As for the historical flavour, I think what you need to appreciate is that historical flavour in this game frequently clashes - and loses - against historical non-determinism. This is one example of this. After all, the Teutonic knights in this part of europe were a historical result of the crusades coming to an end. In a greater context, the story of the Teutonic knights is not a story of a crusading order - it's the story of a bunch of out-of-work soldiers trying to make something of themselves after the war is done. So, having them appearing in the Baltic area starting from 1066 is definitely not historical flavour, it's historical anti-flavour. Historical flavour would be to have the Teutons appear in the Baltic area after the crusades. And then, of course, you could do the same with the other orders - the Templars in France or England, etc..

I gave all the relevant provicnes to vassals, once they were all heretic. Then whenever the vassals suppressed the heresy, i made the provinces heretic again, until the vassals gave up and converted to the heresy. Then i had to watch my reputation a bit or else the heretics would tell rebel on me, but the TO was dealt with. You could do the same, or turn heretic yourself.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

If I'm posting about a problem to the beta forum, I would much rather hear that you are going to do something about it, than merely get advice on how I can fix it myself. Especially since in this case, I really didn't fix it - I don't want to cut the Teutons out completely, I just want them to make more sense, and to be a bit less harmful.

But when you are the only one or just a minorty who has problems with the event then there is no reason to do something about it.

And like Byakhiam said, they had thought about the possible problem, before you posted about it, and this is what they have come up with.

So they have made an improvement to the events, of course that still doesn't mean that it is to everybody's liking.

The Heretic part is to ensure that it doesn't fire immidiately again. [1.04a] You might remember what it was like before, when it just kept spamming you whole time and as Crusades lasted for ever, they just kept spamming until end of game. [/1.04a] Now they will fire once, you refuse and get Heretical province, which prevents it from firing and it only fires when Crusades are on. I'd say it's pretty nice as it is and it's mere one province really.

In my opinion, losing 1 province to the Teutons is hardly a problem.

I had suggested once to have the knightly orders receive duke level instead of kinglevel titles, that way they could become vassals of you as a king and you could help them in their war against the pagans/heathens and even grant them some more lands.Sadly this suggestion hasn't made it.

 

[CatKnight]

But there appears to be a contradiction here:

Byakhiam earlier talks about how hardcoding a date contradicts CK's non-determinism. In fact, most everyone I've heard on these boards seems to appreciate this non-determinism vs. say EU2, Vicky or HOI where the events are designed to encourage a historical outcome.

But....isn't spam-forcing the creation of the Teutons determinism? Doesn't this event pretty much force the player to accept their existence (or exploit the game engine)? France, England, Germany, none of the major powers of the medieval era get this kind of protection from the game. Should the Teutons?

Sure, let them ask. However if the player says no....the answer should be no. The event can always be modified to virtually guarantee than an AI will say yes, right? That would serve players who want the historical feel of having the Teutons show up.

If you feel letting the player get away with a flat no is exploitive, then give them a serious reason not to like with a EU2 event. -100+ piety. Maybe instead of hitting the province the Teutons decide your LEADER is a heretic.

A lot of you are arguing this is ONLY one province. Fair enough.... unless you're two provinces. The player really should have the ability to refuse, even with a penalty, and have it stick ... making the province heretical then respamming them seems unusually harsh.

 

[unmerged(46403)]

What is really needed is a spam-prevention province effect. it woldn't show up in the proivnce view (because that would be ugly) but it wouldnt go away until the prov changes hands, and the Teutons (or the Templars, the Hospitaliers, the KoJ, the Pope, etc) would just piss off until then. Unofrtunately i doubt it's something that will be coded anytime soon.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

A lot of you are arguing this is ONLY one province. Fair enough.... unless you're two provinces. The player really should have the ability to refuse, even with a penalty, and have it stick ... making the province heretical then respamming them seems unusually harsh.

Wanting your cake and eating it to i see? Having it stick would be good, but without penalty? Come on! Talk about cheesyness if that were the case!

As said, it would be nice if CK could remember you choices, not just for this event, but for others as well. Unfortunatly it can't.

 

[CatKnight]

Wanting your cake and eating it to i see? Having it stick would be good, but without penalty? Come on! Talk about cheesyness if that were the case!

Whoa! Did you even READ my post, Jinnai? You missed a few sentences!

I did state that an event that spams you and keeps creating heretical provinces is overly harsh, yes. Specifically it's the spamming and having it happen over and over again, rather than the province effect. I did not say the player should not be penalized. I specifically mentioned the possibility of a major piety hit, or even having the title holder declared heretical. Sheesh! And if that's not enough, I'd be happy to discuss what WOULD be appropriate.

Now, circling in on the rest of your statement: CK doesn't remember choices. Fine, I don't think any of the Paradox games do so much as make the alterations (-xx piety, +xx prestige, etc.) and get on with it. Are you saying it doesn't remember if an event has fired?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Whoa! Did you even READ my post, Jinnai? You missed a few sentences!

I did state that an event that spams you and keeps creating heretical provinces is overly harsh, yes. Specifically it's the spamming and having it happen over and over again, rather than the province effect. I did not say the player should not be penalized. I specifically mentioned the possibility of a major piety hit, or even having the title holder declared heretical. Sheesh! And if that's not enough, I'd be happy to discuss what WOULD be appropriate.

Well discussion of what is apporpiate is always something that is open...well assuming its something that's implimentable. However, making a ruler heretical isn't possible. This event is a province based event. Atleast read the event effect files to post what could appropriately be put in for such an event.

That said, other suggestions as to possibilites aren't i assume out of the question since editing events doesn't require the power of Johan.

Now, circling in on the rest of your statement: CK doesn't remember choices. Fine, I don't think any of the Paradox games do so much as make the alterations (-xx piety, +xx prestige, etc.) and get on with it. Are you saying it doesn't remember if an event has fired?

Correct. It can't remember what events have fired nor are there any triggers for them to tell which have. There is also no way to event set a temporary variable in memory for multiple effects of events (FE: if you wanted to have an event for a random courtier to ask to kill another (random) courtier, there is no way from preventing the random courtier choice from killing anyone but the ruler themself).

So yea, there CK engine as of now and likely through 1.05 atleast has no way of remembering if anything has fired (except when someone got pregnant).

 

[unmerged(35938)]

I just went ahead and gave them the province. Was I ever surprised a couple of months later when they asked to become my vassel! I was Duke of Saxony at the time. Is it supposed to work this way in the beta?

 

[Third Angel]

During the lifetime of their first ruler, the Knights Orders are seen as a county by the engine. It's a long-known bug.

 

[Hrafn]

Bigger issue is that for part of the players, knight orders are pleasant historical flavour and to other part of the players, which I suppose you Quarto belong to, they are pain in the bottom, that shouldn't be in the game in the first place. As it's obviously impossible to please both factions perfectly, we have chosen the middle way on it, with having them in, but trying to make them less of a pain, if you don't like them around. But if you are hell-bent on never seeing them in the first place, you are free to delete the event for your own playing pleasure, just remember that not everyone sees it in the same way as you do.

For myself, it seems ahistorical, as well as blatantly unrealistic, for the Teutonic Knights to keep reappearing, no matter how often they are killed off. I would also question whether (as a single province 'kingdom') they actually have much impact on the game, rather they are just a cute/annoying (depending on your viewpoint) nuiscence. Either way, is the 'benefit' of having them worth the hard-wiring of such an unrealistic immortality?

Medieval Europe would not be Medival Europe without a Papacy -- but would anybody, apart from their immediate neighbours, have noticed if the Teutonic Order ceased to exist?

My vote is for only allowing the Teutonic Order in if it can be done in a non-immortal manner. Otherwise, why not let those who want a 'Teutonic Order' simply create an Archbishopric of Prussia as a substitute (a landed religious order is closer to an Archbishopric, possibly vassaled directly to the Papacy, than to a conventional kingdom anyway), in the normal manner?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Medieval Europe would not be Medival Europe without a Papacy -- but would anybody, apart from their immediate neighbours, have noticed if the Teutonic Order ceased to exist?

I agree that the military orders, so not just the Teutonic ones, are quite useless now in the game. But medieval Europe without them would make a big difference. The Teutonic Order (and the Sword Brothers in Livonia) were very powerfull landowners in Prussia and the Baltic.

Also a lot of noblemen from all over Europe (including kings, dukes and so on)went to that region to take part in the annual 'crusades' against the pagans (Lithuanians and so on). It was something like an 'action vacation' for them.
They just went there for a season and then went back to their own place.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

That's the problem in the game, they are just too weak to fight anybody and spread even when there are no pagans anymore, but don't attack the christian countries (they could see them as no good christians and make a crusade against them) since they are to weak for it.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Yes, the teutons could be something more than cute teddy bears with toy swords. All improvement suggestions on how to make them more formidable without ruining other parts of the game or how to make them appear less bothersomely, but still appear, are very welcome.

However, after we betas have put our collective minds to it and given you the best results we could, you are not too likely to change things by just saying "Oh, this should be better", as it is very much possible that we don't see how.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

How about an event that fires when heathens, heretics or excommunicated are in Balticum which makes the Teutons attack these Kings and give them 5.000 - 30.000 troops.
Yes I know events suck sometimes (today had one as Spain in EU2: State Bancrupcy while I owned 5.000 ducats) but I don't know another way.