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Laffertytig

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this has always annoyed me ever since EU2 first came out. im in a war against 3 or 4 counties. austria invite into their alliance with 2 or 3 countries. im struglin so i accept the invitation expecting some help. yet they remain at peace. there should be the option to at least ask them for support. whats the point in even joinin the alliance. the word alliance in this respect is a joke!!!!
 

Laffertytig

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ok it gets better than that. those countries that im allied with wont even allow me access!! so the reason they wont send forces is cos they're not allows through my land and vice versa!!! some allies eh.

game immersion dead n buried
 

Rythin

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Yeah, it's a flaw that annoys me as well. When you join an alliance while being on war, your new allies won't help you. The only way is editing a savefile.
 

DSYoungEsq

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Why would your new allies come to your aid? You are already at war, and they invited you, not you inviting them. You bring your baggage with you, so to speak. ;)
 

DSYoungEsq

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TheLoneTaco said:
WW2, UK asks US to "join alliance"

EDIT: obviously i'm referring to pre-dec 7th 1941

-Matt
The point is that in such a case, should the US have been at war with Mexico, Britain wouldn't have joined that war. Instead, what did happen was that the US joined the war upon Germany.
 

Falstaff

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Germany declared war on USA.
 

unmerged(3931)

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On September 28, 1940, Japan, Germany, and Italy signed the Tripartite Treaty. The treaty required the three nations to respond by declaring war if any of the other three nations was attacked by any of the Allied nations. Thereafter, if Japan attacked the United States, Americans would have a cause for war against Japan. If the United States responded by declaring war against Japan, the United States would thus be at war with Germany and Italy also.

December 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor.
December 8, 1941 - United States and Britain declare war on Japan.
December 11, 1941 - Germany and Italy declare war on the United States and sign new military alliance with Japan.

The maneuvering works just like the game. Roosevelt wanted war with Germany, but he needed a cause for war. Roosevelt had promised he would keep the United States out of war. There would be quite a loss of stability if there were a declaration of war against Germany without a cause. To get in the war, Roosevelt kept defenses low in the Pacific and did all that he could to provoke a confrontation. A CB is manufactured in a way and war is declared not on the nation of primary interest but on an ally who then brings Germany into the war. This is so much like EU2 tactics that it is scary.
 
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unmerged(46785)

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Laffertytig said:
ok so why cant i access my allies territory and vice versa?

If you are together with your allies in a war then you have military access to your allies territories (and they have acces to your's). If you are at war and your allies aren't your "war allies" then neither you nor your allies have mutual territory access.

2 different things: Military Alliance and War Alliance.
 

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simple illustration: i am austria, france is at war with milan, i invite milan to my alliance, if the game does not immediately put me at war with france, it should at least give me a casus belli to intervene and save my ally.

this is among the more annoying features, only thing more annoying is allied vassals starting a war and then being unable to make a peace treaty until you make a separate peace treaty and leave the alliance.

ie. your ally and vassal declares war on france, you join and kick france all the way to paris, france loses big time and milan wont make peace until you do. you have to make separate peace taking a good chunk out of france(or not) france continues war with milan and annexes it.
 

unmerged(46785)

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I guess the moral of the story is - unless you are the leader of the alliance and/or the leader of the war alliance you will always be dependant on AI stupidity.
 

TheLoneTaco

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just to defend my point here, the US and germany were fighting each other before 1942. the merchant marine guarding US-UK convoys was searching out and attacked by german u-boats. many americans died, and many germans died. my grandfather happened to be part of this merchant marine group (which over the course of the war had the highest casualty rate of any division). just because the history books say "the war didn't start until such and such a date" doesn't mean the WAR started then. and not to start an OT war here, but the same situation is going on in iraq now. the "second iraq war" or whatever ended may 30th 2003, when bush said "major hostilities are over." i REALLY don't think anyone actually believes that war is over, though

-Matt
 

unmerged(3931)

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There is quite a difference in the scale and scope of fighting when there is an official declaration of war. Acts of war such as blockades are not used unless they are renamed something else. Invasions are military actions. Occupiers are security forces. The psych warfare influencing people's perceptions is quite a bit different than pre-WWII days. In game terms, US and UK were engaged in trade and Germany constantly harassed the "merchant" convoys. There were lots of minor CBs, but Roosevelt needed a much stronger cause for war.
 

CatKnight

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Getting back to DSYoung's first point: Why should they?

If on Day 1, I'm at war with England, and on Day 2 I ask to join the French alliance (as an example), then no: France is NOT at war with England. Since they are not cobelligerents, I do not have military access through France. France is figuring I can deal with my own problems...and honestly, 'protect the noob who just joined us' isn't going to fly with France's people.

On the other hand, if I invite France to join MY alliance....then yes, France is now at war with England. (It gets confusing right about here.)

Now on Day 3 - let's say France and England are not fighting despite my joining their alliance. On Day 3 Scotland sees easy prey and attacks. At that point we CAN ask France and friends to join in. That is why an alliance in mid-war can still be useful....
 

unmerged(3931)

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CatKnight said:
Now on Day 3 - let's say France and England are not fighting despite my joining their alliance. On Day 3 Scotland sees easy prey and attacks. At that point we CAN ask France and friends to join in. That is why an alliance in mid-war can still be useful....
How is that different than just allowing Scotland and France to have their own war? You will not be asked to join the war with France and Scotland because you are already at war with England. So you still have no access through France and Scotland. And your alliance has nothing to do with Scotland's decision to DoW England. It is only your ability to pummel England that causes the observed weakness. In such case you do not even need help from allies.

The advantage I see in having a mid-war alliance is in reducing the likelihood of appearing weak enough that all sorts of nations DoW you. You may also want to prevent DoWs from members of the alliance you are joining.
 
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