This Is Madness 2 - Imperium Sine Fine (Interactive Mega Campaign)

[McGrey]

{{I like how we whites are now basicaly equal to the devil for some reason... }}

 

[RedInc]

{{I like how we whites are now basicaly equal to the devil for some reason... }}

{{With di Capponi still around (somewhere), is that such a bad thing?

Come on. Embrase the madness. You know you want to.}}

 

[McGrey]

{{With di Capponi still around (somewhere), is that such a bad thing?

Come on. Embrase the madness. You know you want to.}}

{{Nonononono, I need to keep my guard up, lest I reveal my terrible terrible secret...}}

 

[CzokletMuss]

{{ Okay, important announcement:

The Blue Demes meeting is extended until 15:00 (Warsaw Time) 18 September (Friday).

Why? Because:

Seriously though, it's a middle of a week and due to the fact that a lot of Blue players are from other time zones I think it's fair to give Blues a little more time.
Remember that the Sixth Senate Session starts on the same day (that is tomorrow) at 18:00.

Also the results of the poll:

Spoiler

So basically we have 10 people from Europe, 9 people from Americas and 1 player from Asia. Yeah, I don't see solution which would satisfy everyone with such geographical distribution. }}

 

[McGrey]

{{Go Europe!}}

 

[GulMacet]

{{I'm not really from Asia, I just study here!}}

 

[ParrotGuy]

{{I'm technically from Asia but in a European timezone (UTC +3) }}

 

[Ponce_The_Great]

{{I like how we whites are now basicaly equal to the devil for some reason... }}

{{Maybe to the Blues, I think the Reds still get along better with the Whites, but we'll have to see how it turns out at the meeting.}}

 

[luciusmalfoy012]

Senator Duilius Arrius:
*Duilius rolls his eyes at Dooley's outburst.*
"I have issue with those who regard the Church higher than the Augustus, not God. There is a difference between the men who claim to speak for the Lord and the Lord Himself. Priests can be corrupt like any other man. The Church has become too greedy, too powerful. They must be taught to kneel to the royal family, the people who are protecting the Imperium's citizens. I have seen people suffer and die while the Church does nothing to aid them... and I have seen the royal family's efforts to help our people.

Dooley, I listen to your opinion because you are a Senator, not because you claim to be a holy man.

{{Be safe, @Leandor }}

Senator Duilius Arrius:
"The Church is a rotting limb, slowly killing the rest of the Imperium. They have had this much wealth and power for years, and yet we still have citizens who follow the Xenoi's gods. Tell me Senator Azizid, is that the Church's failing, or God's? They have had years to save our people, and no results. Perhaps making the Church humble again will show them that we need results, not just more promises while they horde the Imperium's wealth. The priests do not need riches to spread their message to the masses.

Dooley, you are a Senator. We serve the Augustus and the royal family. We serve Our Lord. We do not serve the Church."

Senator Alexius Colombo:

Careful Duilius, you tread on dangerous ground. We in the Blues shall not judge you for your words, but should you have said this in the Senate...

Let's just say that the Blues do not need another purge. The institution of the Holy Church itself is not rotted, but the men within it often are. Be more careful with your words in your future if you cannot control your thoughts.

{{As someone who didn't watch Silence of the Lambs, Alexius reminds me more of Roose Bolton }}
Senator Nikephoros II Salamis:
*Nikephoros doesn't even wash his hands while watching the events unfolding. He frowns, even his social incompetence forgotten.*
Careful, Senators Colombo and Arrius. The church and its men are still the LORD's envoys, and still His men. Our demes had some... trouble not so long ago, let's not let it seem like we are problematic. Let us not completely ignore the opportunity to ally with the Whites if the Reds do not cooperate- some of them hate us more than some of the Whites, from what my father told me. He also told me that his father, Herakleios Salamis who was poisoned on the Senate floor, had respect for the new generation of the White demes, even as his rivals.
*He turns his gaze towards Alexius*
Senator Colombo, you speak as if your policies will become the Blue Deme's undebatable policies if we elect you as speaker. You even misspoke and called the position "leader" once... It is not so. You shall be the speaker, nothing else. I agree with Bishop Dooley, you seem like you have a mind for cunning, however there are some points on which I disagree with you- despite your hate for them, we cannot overlook an opportunity to ally with the Whites. We must also enact the administrative reform- the Imperium needs it in these times of crisis. And lastly, I am not sure that increasing our ship's durability should be the focus of our demes... It, and any of your policies, should be debatable no matter what- being the speaker does not make one higher in position than any member of his demes. You will speak, and promote, what the faction as a whole decides, even if you disagree. Will you do this thing as our speaker, or will you usurp a nonexistent position of leadership?

Alexius frowns, mulling over how to best counter this challenge.

"In order to get things done, we must have unity within the Demes. While what we say here is not binding, but I would like to exit this meeting with a consensus on how we as a faction will vote. I am puzzled as to why you think I am unwilling to listen to my fellow members, as I have asked for negotiation. What would you, or another member of our Deme propose in place of the ship durability reform? I would like to have a general agreement on this topic.

With regards to negotiation with the Whites: We cannot let the Whites remain in power. Any deal hashed with them must be one that loosens their hold on the Imperium. We can give them money, brides, awards, anything that will sate their animal desires. But we cannot give them power, nor influence. As such, I maintain that the administrative reform will only bring ruin upon us. The Whites have held power for decades under the guise of reform; why will they change their nepotistic and corrupt ways now? It is important to remember that a focus on administration will weaken the navy, trade, and the army. So no, I personally cannot support such a proposal. If you wish to vote for it, you have the legal privilege to do so. But in good conscience, I cannot."

{{ RE: Czoklet: Damn, I wanted to bring some of my home-smoked long-pig to the Senate to share with my fellow Senators. }}

 

[ParrotGuy]

Senator Nikephoros II Salamis:
*Nikephoros nods, and returns to washing his hands, more calm now*
I see. My problem was with your wording- it seemed, by your words. as if choosing you as a speaker is also choosing your views- which is of course, wrong. I do not agree with all your views, but I will approve you as the speaker of our Demes.
It seems like we are united on most matters- let us speak of the administrative reform. The Imperial administration is in dire need of aid, we cannot deny it. Yet, we need to discuss the matter... What say you, Senators?
{{Czoklet, if for example the policy is Blue and the national focus is administration, does that keep the Whites in power? Or do the other things like taking church lands have an influence over the faction which will be in power?}}

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

Senator Duilius Arrius:
"Senator Colombo, your concern for me is appreciated, but unnecessary. I am loyal to the royal family, to the Imperium, and to God. I do not need to be loyal to men who care more for wealth.

As for reforming the administration... I fear it may not be wise to seek an alternative. Our Augustus believes it is time, and given the state of our home..."

{{Really, I'm not sure if we should try and change it, given how Czoklet is basically holding the Imperium together with glue right now.}}

 

[Teutonic King]

{{I really feel that many of the Senators who haven't yet fallen into madness are going to be doing this fairly soon.

}}

 

[CzokletMuss]

Senator Duilius Arrius:
Dooley, you are a Senator. We serve the Augustus and the royal family. We serve Our Lord. We do not serve the Church."

{{ This isn't modern Western country founded on serpation of powers and other ideas from Enlightenment; in Byzantium relations between the Church and the throne are sometimes described with a term "caesaropapism":

Caesaropapism /ˌsiːzəroʊˈpeɪpɪzəm/ is the idea of combining the power of secular government with the religious power, or making it superior to the spiritual authority of the Church; especially concerning the connection of the Church with government. The term caesaropapism (Cäseropapismus) may first have been coined by Justus Henning Böhmer, and was later defined by Max Weber as "a secular, caesaropapist ruler... exercises supreme authority in ecclesiastic matters by virtue of his autonomous legitimacy". According to Weber's political sociology, caesaropapism entails "the complete subordination of priests to secular power."

In its extreme form, caesaropapism is a political theory in which the head of state, notably the Emperor ('Caesar', by extension an 'equal' King), is also the supreme head of the church ('papa', pope or analogous religious leader). In this form, it inverts theocracy (or hierocracy in Weber) in which institutions of the Church control the state. However, both Caesaropapism and Theocracy are systems in which there is no Separation of Church and State and the two form parts of a single power structure.

Caesaropapism's chief example is the authority the Byzantine (East Roman) Emperors had over the Church of Constantinople or Eastern Christian Church from the 330 consecration of Constantinople through the tenth century. The Byzantine Emperor would typically protect the Eastern Church and manage its administration by presiding over Ecumenical Councils and appointing Patriarchs and setting territorial boundaries for their jurisdiction. The Emperor exercised a strong control over the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and the Patriarch of Constantinople could not hold office if he did not have the Emperor's approval. Eastern men like St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople and St. Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, strongly opposed imperial control over the Church, as did Western theologians like St. Hilary and Hosius, Bishop of Córdoba. Such Emperors as Basiliscus, Zeno, Justinian I, Heraclius, and Constans II published several strictly ecclesiastical edicts either on their own without the mediation of church councils, or they exercised their own political influence on the councils to issue the edicts.

However, John Meyendorff has stated: "Caesaropapism ... never became an accepted principle in Byzantium." Several saints resisted the imperial power as a consequence of their witness to orthodoxy, such as Maximus the Confessor. In addition, at several occasions imperial decrees had to be withdrawn as the people of the Church, both lay people, monks and priests, refused to accept inventions at variance with the Church's customs and beliefs. These events show that the power over the Church really was in the hands of the Church itself – not in the emperor.

Tl;dr - serving God, Emperor and the Church is basically the same thing (huge simplification but more or less true) }}

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

{{Tl;dr - serving God, Emperor and the Church is basically the same thing (huge simplification but more or less true) }}

{{So a distinction between the Church and God can't be made? I knew the Emperor and God were basically being blended, both with this heresy and making Markos a saint, but we're also discussing talking land and wealth away from the Church. Wouldn't just that discussion be heretical and worthy of execution then? I'm aware my character is walking a thin line, but I may have underestimated how thin...

Randon question then: what is Saint Markos the saint of? People pray to specific saints for specific things, right? Is Saint Markos the saint of Romans?}}

 

[Attalus]

{{ So Czoklet when are you planning to reveal the plans of the bearded man ?
I won't be available tonight and much of tomorrow but I hope I'll be able to give Valerios' thoughts on what the Aragonese have to say }}

Randon question then: what is Saint Markos the saint of? People pray to specific saints for specific things, right? Is Saint Markos the saint of Romans?}}

{{ Protector of the Romans and Saint of the Angeloi ? }}

Senator Valerios Raoul :
I stand with the other Senators there, I won't veto anyone claiming leadership and I will follow the will of my colleagues for choosing our Speaker.

 

[TurtleShroom]

{{
Actually, the Orthodox Church doesn't affix as much reverence to saints as the Catholic Church. I am sure that some denominations in Orthodoxy pray to saints, and even Protestants revere them to some extent as "great Christians" we all should be like, but they don't have the same obsession with them like the Catholics do with Mary. (The only thing I can recall Orthodox Christians doing in way of Mary-obsession is that bishops wear a picture of her to remind them of how a Christian should act and, of course, there are cahtedrals named after her.
}}

The Reverend Senator Dooley Azizid, Bishop of Azerbaijan, Armenia, and the Roman Far East:

"Administrative reform is the least of our worries right now. The only reason the Imperium is struggling to hold down its bo'ols is because of this plague. Taxation, Chang, and productivity were all in order until these disasterous circumstances fell one after the other. The only thing we should be doing with our administrative political capital is ensuring Rome remains stable. {{ This means I support using ADM Points to raise Stability to postive one. }} We need to tackle the biggest source of our money that cannot be affected so easily. Trade has not been hampered by plague anywhere as close as production and taxation. That's why I agreed fully with increasing trade effiency."

Bishop Dooley paused for thought.

"Ship maintenance costs and trade bonuses are the things I fully agree on, but again I say that the faster we colonize the virgin seas, the faster we get more goods to trade. If we can't get there fast enough, Dai Ön Ulus will beat us to it. We all know of those grand maps showing the expanse of the Khyatad Uls, from Cathay to the frozen north! We have the colonists, and the Holy Khagan Angeloi has the means to call the finest explorers on the earth to sail in any direction, and need I remind you, it takes but three light ships and a galley to ensure safe passage in peace to most anywhere we can go! It's cheap, effective, and pays for itself the moment the colony is settled into a permanent city! That's why I once more suggest we affix our third policy as one that propagandizes Romans to go to the uncharted frontiers."
{{Settler increase plus ten.}}

The Mongol looked at Colombo again.

"By the way, are we all agreed on Colombo's nomination to lead our Khural? We need to formally proclaim him as such before this meeting closes, lest we look disunified in the Khuraltai."

 

[TurtleShroom]

{{

By the way, eighteen hundred hours (6:00 PM) in Stronk Relevant Polan Time is high noon (12:00 PM) EST, in case you don't want to Google it like me.

}}

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

{{Do we even have enough ADM points to raise our stability that high?}}

 

[CzokletMuss]

{{Do we even have enough ADM points to raise our stability that high?}}

{{ Right...

And speaking of Roman ideas:

roman_ideas = {
    start = {
        core_creation = -0.25
        army_tradition = 1
    }
   
    bonus = {
        global_autonomy = -0.10
    }
   
    saint_markos = {
        global_missionary_strength = 0.02
        tolerance_heretic = -2
         tolerance_heathen = -2
    }
    sacred_palace = {
        diplomatic_reputation = 1
        advisor_pool = 1
    }
    angelikon = {
        stability_cost_modifier = -0.10
        global_tax_modifier = 0.05
    }
    tagmata = {
        discipline = 0.05
        army_tradition_decay = -0.01
    }
    rom_mare_nostrum = {
        naval_morale = 0.10
         global_trade_income_modifier = 0.10
    }
    great_purge = {
        culture_conversion_cost = -0.50
        tolerance_heretic = -2
         tolerance_heathen = -2
    }
    sine_fine = {
        fabricate_claims_time = -0.25
        may_explore = yes
    }

I don't have a single colonist available - so far +1 Colonist was Blue bonus but it won't be anymore (it's worth 30points). }}

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

{{No colonists... Can't say I'm surprised. We'll tackle that issue when the Imperium isn't held together by duct tape.}}