This Is Madness 2 - Imperium Sine Fine (Interactive Mega Campaign)

[varetta]

Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Senator Scipion, I am glad to see that at least one member of the Red Demes agrees that we must improve our navy. While I am sure there are those in the three Factions and those who remain unaffiliated that may wish to argue otherwise, I believe the Imperium must have a powerful navy to combat the Xenoi.

...

*Marcus turns to face Senator Wedrovander. His eyes narrow in annoyance.*
Senator Wedrovander, granting protection to Ceylon would strengthen the Imperium and show the natives the mercy of our God. I do not agree with the fanatics of the White Demes, but spreading the teachings of our God is a good thing. If we ignore them, the Xenoi or the Horde could destroy them. As for Aquitaine... Do not defend those fools. They turned their back on our God the day they insulted the Augustus and all of the Imperium. I would happily let them be destroyed by the Xenoi. However, the Augustus is kinder than I. If he wishes to allow them to exist under our protection, then who am I to disagree?

Senator Aetius Scipion (the Reds):

Senator Arrius, I think that everybody in this Empire agree that we must improve our navy. The last "successes" of the Navy has lead us to near bankruptcy and to the death of thousands of good Romans, as my uncle was. I do not think we must invest in a strong navy but in a strong Army and better economy.

But if it is the will of our Emperor to rebuild the navy, then we must try to assure that this time we do not sink it in the first engagement. I understand my red partner´s concerns on the navy, many of them I share, but I will need some...understanding from your friends in the blues if I want to convince them for supporting the Navy improvement bill. As I pointed before, to focus a bit more on our legions would help me to smooth things.

Senator Wedrovander, we do not talk of burning Christians. We talked about purifying Aquitaine´s king soul through fire so the blessing of God can turn to him again while our glorious Emperor take a leading position on the kingdom on behalf of its people. As good christian, we must take care of our brothers and theirs souls.

Senator Taurinus, I am glad to see your family again on the side of the true Romans. Your analysis of our droungarios "strategies", if we can call them this way, is perfectly accurate.

 

[Serpent]

Senator Alexios Serapis (<White Demes>):

*Alexios Serapis, stands.*

"It is an honour to be standing here in this hall. It is with reverence and humility I wish to thank His Imperial Majesty for reopening the senate after so long. And it is with reverence as deep as my dread that I take upon myself the task of leading the White Demes, as it seems there can be no other candidate. My late uncle Marcus would have relished the task, but he was made of sterner stuff. His commitment to the Empire, the Senate and the Holy Faith was absolute and unwavering. I feel too small to shoulder a burden he would have carried with ease. I am perhaps too young and untested to walk in his footsteps, so it seems I must forge my own path. Though I continue his legacy in the White Demes I will not do so in his manner but in my own, as a man of a new generation. I believe that many of you may feel the same.
We carry on a great and ancient legacy. But let us do so in our own manner, unburdened by the conflicts of the past. Let us work together for the betterment of the Imperium, without thought of prestige or personal gain. Let our new generation, and in this let me include you survivors, be the beginning of a new age of constructive cooperation in the Senate. The bickering, small-mindedness (and heresy) of the previous session closed the Senate for forty years. The institution may not survive a repeat and the Imperium needs the Senate.
Thank you, my brothers, for hearing me."

*He sits back down*

 

[McGrey]

Senator Titos Livios Melissenos (the Blues)

I would like to ask a question to the people in our ranks that are experienced and knowledgeable of the military matters, which, I'm sure, are mostly you reds. I should say beforehand, that this is not a rhetoric one and neither an insult, for my grandfather thought me to treat lightly in this halls.
So I think while we all agree, that our navy has be everything but successful in battle and I also agree with you that the army has won most of our wars until now, the question I have is: Can the empire make war without a navy? Since fighting a war against the Xenoi is normally a fight fought north and south of the mare nostrum, isn't a navy necessary for transportation and a combat fleet for protecting the transports from Xenoi raiders?

*He bows lightly in direction of the reds, showing humility and the honesty of his question.*

 

[ParrotGuy]

Senator Antiochos Salamis (The Blues):
*Senator Salamis stands up to talk. It is appearent that he is extremly ecstatic to finaly participate in a Senate session, after dreaming about it so much in the days of his father Anatasios.
Antiochos is similiar to his father in ideology and also in his ambition, beign a diplomat like his father, but his close ties with the merchant class made him more of a classic blue. He is also very cynical and sharp tongued, unlike his flawlessly diplomatic father.
Antiochos smiles before beggining his speech.*
My fellow Sentors! I am glad and proud to stand here with you in service of the Imperium.
Now, to the matters at hand- I would like to begin with the matter which is in a consensus- the Kingdom of Aquitaine has betrayed us, like Bavaria before them. This betrayal is even worse after we saved the men of Aquitaine from beign ravaged by the Xenoi at the great cost of leaving the horde dangerous- we could have destroyed the horde and reclaimed the black sea, but we chose to save Aquitaine- and this is how they repay us. It is clear- the King of Aquitaine is mad. It will be only merciful and just for the people of Aquitaine to be under the wings of the glorious Imperium and for their king to be deposed.
Now, it seems to me that some of the Reds have some logical flaws, hm? Out Navy failed. That's right. But that was because our fleed is so backward- we must improve the Navy if we want to defeat the Xenoi, not make it a mere transportation for the army. No armies will save us if the Xenoi ships will have a freedom to roam our seas without opposition- to raid our coasts, maby even the Queen of Cities itself, to destroy these transportation fleets you want our navy to become, to blockade our harbours- we must improve the Navy, and as quickly as possible.
I believe we must also increase the power of the Megas Droungarios to make the improvement of the Navy more efficient, however as a man of diplomacy I would compromise with the Reds and give more power to the armies, which are of course very important, instead.
Another flaw of logic I managed to find in the Reds- some of them, or maby one of them specifically, is the continues opposition of exploration.
Before Iebediah Kermanos' expedition, many of you Whites and Reds were loudly opposing exploration. "We will find only enemies, it is a waste of money", you said.
But now, unfourtunatly, truth has disappointed you. We discovered many helpful things, we even discovered a possible vassal- and now our wise Emperor proposes another expedition. I wonder why? Perhaps it is because the Emperor, God's regent on earth, found the last expedition helpful. Obviously, exploration of the world around us proved important.
And yet, some of you still oppose another expedition, completly ignoring the facts. I would re-think.
As for the matter of Ceylon, vassalizing it seems obvious. More strength, more knowledge, a base of operation in the East- more power.
Thank you for listening, my friends. May we pass this session without all the spitting and hersey my father told me about.

 

[Malal]

Senator Iskinder Godric (Red Demes):

*The young senator looks on at the senate, watching with interest as the senators argue and bicker. Thin and scrawny, He appears to be the total opposite of his ancestor. When a lull finally hangs over the senatorium, He lets out a small cough before standing*

Greetings fellow senators, My name is Iskinder of House Godric, May I say it is my pleasure to have finally met you all. Now, On with todays agenda.

On the subject of the expeditions, As the most southerly member of the senate, I must support these actions. The riches of Hindustan and Africa cannot be denied, and who knows, they may be the very key to solving our financial problem. The old maps we have gathered from the time of Ptolmy show that this "See-Leon" is right at the tip of Hindustan, and has access to Serica from ship. While i do not think we may be able to take ceylon diplomaticly, Taking it over for our empire, would most certain give us an advantage

Regarding ships, My sincere condolences to those of the Imperial Navy among us. Your men fought bravely, but even that coudnt stop their accursed ships. It may be time for now to upgrade our ships to something much more. The books of old tell me about a weapon our dromons once had. We may even still have it, but news and infomation takes time to reach Aethiopia. Greek Fire, a fire which could set even the water alight, as if the almighty himself willed it.

The way i figure it, While we may lack these thunder spears of the Xenoi, and their massive ships, we do have, or rather DID have, a weapon that can set their ships alight, with no way to put it out! the shear size of the xenoi would work in our favor, as the fire would spread. If we could even get this miracle weapon to work on land, a weapon similar to the thunder spears, but instead of invisible death and lead balls, we would instead be using sacred, all purifying fire against all who oppose us! to save or condemn their souls, while also saving the empire, I am sure many can see the attractiveness of such a marrige.

And of aquitane? Simple. They have forfitted the everything by calling themselves romans. So there is only one cause of action now.

We destroy them. We take their land. We save those who chafe under the rule of the mad king.

 

[Serpent]

Senator Alexios Serapis of the White Demes

The Imperium knew about Hindustan in Augustus' time, roman and indian merchants travelled across the Arabian sea for hundreds of years, trading roman silver for perishable luxuries. Even now Indian spices can be found in Alexandria and Constantinople. Did, and does, that trade make the Imperium richer, or does it merely enrich the Indians and the merchant-class middlemen? What do we gain from the import of luxuries, but even more expenses and greater debts? Spices are consumed, fabrics rot, but gold and silver last forever. Is not precious metals a better measure of material wealth? A question for you Blues from the merchant class.

But I digress. The Kermanos Expedition merely confirmed what was already known. India exists and has a coastline. It did not reveal what lay beyond the coast. It did not even reveal the cities on that coast. He suggest there is an island called Ceylon, but all I see on his maps in a shadow. Unless the Megas Droungarios has some new information to relate it seems the expedition provided us nothing of value to a great expense of about 1300 units of our currency. And since our currency is rapidly inflating that cost was even greater than it may seem to us now.

The White Demes represents the Faith, but also the Imperial administration. And I know well the poor state of our finances. What the Imperium needs now is above all else fiscal austerity. We need to pay our debts, replenish our reserves of recruits for the Tagmata and build up a healthy reserve of gold and silver so that we can avoid further debt once we find ourselves in future wars. By all means, let us annex Aquitaine. The lands are rich and the nation is weak. The war will be a minor expense in both lives and coin. Let us do the same if the occasion is favourable in what little remains of Germany. Likewise, a war with an unprotected Pisa will practically pay for itself. But we must refrain from any greater expenses. No more wars with our three powerful neighbours, no more needless expense on the navy and no more expeditions while we are still in debt.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Senator Giacomo Este-Ravenna of the Red Demes:
A lithe, muscled, well dressed man with curly black hair sits languidly on the hard, oaken bench of his predecessor, a fine glass of chianti, barely touched in front of him. Peering out from a sun-tanned face, his emerald green cat's eyes rake over the hall with an air unsettlingly reminiscent of a lion lounging in the sun, the quiet, haughty arrogance of a far younger man clinging to him even as his third decade dies. One arm is bandaged, though he gives no sign of pain; a present from a jilted merchant, taking offense to his, ah, interest in the man's daughter, and were it not forbidden he would carry his sword still, as befitting a gentleman of his station. Constantinople makes even his dear Venezia seem small and drab and poor, and he fell in love with the Queen of Cities the moment he stepped onto the dock. This love- this lust- he has expressed with wine and wit and gold.
He stands and bows with a flourish to Senator Titus Melissenos. "I, Giacomo of House Este Ravenna, do humbly accept your invitation, and echo your plea for unity, for are we all not equal in service to the Blessed and Sagacious Emperor- long may he reign- as we are all equally humbled before the Lord?"
He turns to the Senate. "The army has won many victories, yet the navy languishes. Is not Rome the master of the Mediterranean? Time and again the fiendish Xenoi have sent many good, brave men to the bottom of the sea. The campaign in North Africa itself was endangered by the more recent defeat, as the fleet was helpless to protect or transport the legions reclaiming Carthage. Were the Xenoi to have attacked them then, our losses may have been great, indeed. The Lord does protect-" he makes the sign of the Cross "yet He smiles upon those who arm themselves in His name. If our fleets are inadequate to defend our coasts, or even a stretch of sea bare leagues across, then the fleet, as it exists, is a waste of resources better spent elswehere. It is for this reason that I suggest rebuilding the fleet, not on the basis of the old, inadequate galleys, but in new, larger, heavy ships, capable of withstanding the largest of the Xenoi oceangoing ships. Such vessels will be essential when we are called upon to strike at the Xenoi where they dwell across the waves and will prove useful in the waters of Cathay as well. Do not forget the heathen Zheng He, reputed to sail with vessels thrice the size of an Imperial Dromon. Should these barbarians take up arms against us they will smash our existing ships to kindling with no less alacrity as the enemy to the west. And so, I yield to the wisdom of our Blessed Emperor, and the light of reason and faith alike, and support the expansion of the Navy and the focus upon its reform."

{{I support the maritime ideas and the diplomatic focus}}

"Though I am not opposed to bringing the people of this... Ceylon... into the Empire, and it seems a suitable base from which to launch further expeditions, I would caution my colleagues among the Blue Demes not to be blinded by the lure of wealth beyond the horizon. Who might say what Godless heathens our sailors might find? Are we to open another front in the war for salvation and preservation, while the Xenoi still infest Europa's shores? I will support the vassalization of Ceylon, but only on condition that the Senate consider launching expeditions west, beyond the Pillars of the World, with the goal of bringing war to the heart of our mortal foe."

"In regards to Aquitaine-" he sneers- "the heretics, like the prodigal son, did turn to the Angeloi for their protection, and the Angeloi, in their munificent beneficence did offer them aid in their plight; yet no sooner did their safety become assured then they took upon themselves the blasphemous and most absurd pretensions of the German confederacy and refused all offers of peaceful repentence. Is this not the ultimate fate of all those who stray from the Angeloi's grace? The people of Aquitaine must be brought into the light of the one true empire and the one true church, the soul of her deluded king cleansed with fire and steel, lest they be lost to the bloodstained altars of the Xenoi's false gods."

Senator Alexios Serapis of the White Demes
The Imperium knew about Hindustan in Augustus' time, roman and indian merchants travelled across the Arabian sea for hundreds of years, trading roman silver for perishable luxuries. Even now Indian spices can be found in Alexandria and Constantinople. Did, and does, that trade make the Imperium richer, or does it merely enrich the Indians and the merchant-class middlemen? What do we gain from the import of luxuries, but even more expenses and greater debts? Spices are consumed, fabrics rot, but gold and silver last forever. Is not precious metals a better measure of material wealth? A question for you Blues from the merchant class.
But I digress. The Kermanos Expedition merely confirmed what was already known. India exists and has a coastline. It did not reveal what lay beyond the coast. It did not even reveal the cities on that coast. He suggest there is an island called Ceylon, but all I see on his maps in a shadow. Unless the Megas Droungarios has some new information to relate it seems the expedition provided us nothing of value to a great expense of about 1300 units of our currency. And since our currency is rapidly inflating that cost was even greater than it may seem to us now.
The White Demes represents the Faith, but also the Imperial administration. And I know well the poor state of our finances. What the Imperium needs now is above all else fiscal austerity. We need to pay our debts, replenish our reserves of recruits for the Tagmata and build up a healthy reserve of gold and silver so that we can avoid further debt once we find ourselves in future wars. By all means, let us annex Aquitaine. The lands are rich and the nation is weak. The war will be a minor expense in both lives and coin. Let us do the same if the occasion is favourable in what little remains of Germany. Likewise, a war with an unprotected Pisa will practically pay for itself. But we must refrain from any greater expenses. No more wars with our three powerful neighbours, no more needless expense on the navy and no more expeditions while we are still in debt.

He begins drily, "Indeed, Senator Serapis, the White Demes are utterly engrossed in the administration, else they would surely be more numerous.
Nor do I think our August Body is in total control of where or when a war might begin. The administration is overtaxed, the navy so much debris- yet three, 'ruinous' wars have liberated Catalonia, reclaimed Carthage and Egypt and secured the Eastern Mediterranean. The Army has done more than its share, and yielded the greatest returns.

A war with Pisa is an intriguing possibility- indeed, if we strike with alacrity Italia and the remnants of Aquitaine may be liberated... if we were to conquer the latter, then reinstate them as a client under a good, God-fearing Roman Doux, then the war against the latter may then itself prove an even greater windfall."

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Senator Serapis raises a good point. Perhaps a war with the pitiful remains of Germany and the merchants of Pisa could be beneficial to the Imperium. Is our army still recovering, or do we have the men to fight?

{{How fares our army right now? Would war be a bad idea? For that matter, am I allowed to ask about the state of the Horde? If they're still weak, I'd rather go to war with them and weaken them even more.}}

 

[DKM]

{{What is a "Guest of the Senate?"}}

 

[Serpent]

Senator Alexios Serapis of the White Demes

Senator Giacomo Este-Ravenna of the Red Demes:
He begins drily, "Indeed, Senator Serapis, the White Demes are utterly engrossed in the administration, else they would surely be more numerous.
Nor do I think our August Body is in total control of where or when a war might begin. The administration is overtaxed, the navy so much debris- yet three, 'ruinous' wars have liberated Catalonia, reclaimed Carthage and Egypt and secured the Eastern Mediterranean. The Army has done more than its share, and yielded the greatest returns.

A war with Pisa is an intriguing possibility- indeed, if we strike with alacrity Italia and the remnants of Aquitaine may be liberated... if we were to conquer the latter, then reinstate them as a client under a good, God-fearing Roman Doux, then the war against the latter may then itself prove an even greater windfall."

Alexios smiles, genuinely amused by Senator Este-Ravenna's reply. "Clearly waging war and making money have stronger appeals than serving the bureaucracy and faith. Perhaps it is a sign or the times. Or perhaps simply a sign of our age, most young men having little patience for clerical work either sacred or profane."

"You do make a good point, one which does not contradict what I have already said. War has it's proper time and place. The reconquest of Egyptus proved immensely profitable, the recent war for Carthage somewhat less so and the less said about the war in defence of Aquitaine the better. Having our fleets sunk and rebuilt every twenty years or so is however, along with our over-reliance on mercenaries the main drains on our finances. They are both signs of desperation, and we should adapt our strategies accordingly."

"Perhaps our navy can not defeat the Xenoi in open battle. Perhaps their capacity for equipping and maintaining a fleet is simply greater than ours no matter how much money we throw at the problem. If that is the case it would be foolish to try. We should instead subordinate the navy to the needs of the army and use it mainly against weaker foes and as a carrier of troops across short distances in the Mediterranean. It is apparent from the Xenoi's conduct of recent wars that they are content to simply destroy our own fleets in combat and blockade a few of our ports in the western Mediterranean. Their landing of troops in the eastern and central sea has been haphazard, and it seems logistics are preventing them from blockading the Bosporus. With that fact apparent it seems their fleets present a relatively small threat, unless we give them the battle they seek. Our strength is in the Army, and we should fight our enemies on our own terms, not on theirs."

Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Senator Serapis raises a good point. Perhaps a war with the pitiful remains of Germany and the merchants of Pisa could be beneficial to the Imperium. Is our army still recovering, or do we have the men to fight?
{{How fares our army right now? Would war be a bad idea? For that matter, am I allowed to ask about the state of the Horde? If they're still weak, I'd rather go to war with them and weaken them even more.}}

"I thank you, and I share your concern. I would also like to know the answer to that question. It seems that the Xenoi are distracted by their own problems and the Horde and Timurids have their wars in the east, so they would be unlikely to interfere. If we need not fight them I believe we have the strength to defeat our lesser enemies. That is where the greatest benefits are to be had at the lowest cost."

{{What is a "Guest of the Senate?"}}

{{A high ranking official in the administration, army, navy or church (relevant to the topic the Emperor has proposed) who visits the Senate to answer our senators questions. In this case the Megas Droungarios "minister of the Navy"}}

 

[Leandor]

Senator Diaver Kastelos (Blue Demes):

A young man, possibly the youngest of the senate, rests taking some distance from the debate, though near enough to be able to hear every single word. The Kasteloi, although present in every debate, were always busy with their trade company: the flow of money couldn't be stopped, requiring attention from every member of the family, and the increasing market of "heathen" goods, along with the secret treaties with Pisa, were being extremely benefitial... until now. The only thing that looked good in the Kastelos senator was its very clothes. Wearing the traditional senator clothes didn't help to hide the bandages he has around his body. Even his face haven't recovered from some visible scratches. He was the living representation of the state of the family.

"You don't know me, just like I don't know you, besides some known families that have been standing in this senate as long as mine." He took his walking stick, unusual for someone of his age, and he stood, as firmly as his conditions allowed. "I have no time for big presentations: I'm Diaver Kastelos, and I'm a survivor."

"Survivor of what, you might said?" He started to go down, getting closer to the heart of the discussion. "Survivor of the incompetence and narrowness of the people who leads the Imperium." Soon the whispers began to say the word heresy. "Obviously I did not mean the Emperor, no. I would not dare to say such thing, no."

"The army or the navy" and he sat, tired. "Its always the same thing"

"Its the people who dictate what kind of "strategy" and weapons we have to use to fight our enemies the one that is leading Rome to the border of the cliff. The sword and shield? Obviously, that has been the answer for ages. The bow? Hah, the man invented it when had to leave the Garden of Eden."

"Why do I talk about weapons, when we have to be discussing about our navy, or the exploration of the east?" He made a small grimace before continuing. "Its because we have been doing something terribly wrong."

"If you don't know, the kingdom has been released and now counts with the protection of the Basileus. I was there, in the coasts of Hispania, along with my family and the totality of our trade fleet. I'll not be humble: the participation of the Kasteloi was vital to the hispanian's revolts, some that were vital too for the victory of the Empire."

"But everything went wrong, fellow senators. We lost all of Aragon, except the capital. The Imperial Navy failed once more, and not because the romans were less brave than before, or the God's blessings were weaker that day, no. It was the ineptness of our military leaders, that have shown their inaptitude to keep our fleet strong. Our times are changing, senators. The sword, the shield and bow are nothing against the war machinery of the xenoi, and thats what halted our great victory, isolating our themas in Africa while the xenoi armies were attacking Italy."

"I've seen it with my own eyes. The fire they use, those... "cannons", as the aragonese call them after being under the dark dominium of the xenoi, are the key in our defeats. They not only use them against our soldiers, but against our ships. The wood is cracked, our veals burning before we could met the enemy in combat. Half of our fleet was drowning before the romans could aboard the enemy."

"And I, with total confidence, can say the next: even the merchant fleet of the Kasteloi fought better than the Imperial Navy." He sighed before saying the next. "Our revolted allies, under the lead of Joan II of Aragon, captured 300 pieces of "artillery". Two dozens were equipped in our ships. And while I lost my grandfather, my father and brother in the battle, with almost the entire fleet of the trade company, we sent to hell hundreds of those bastards."

"Imagine if we could "modernize" the Imperial Dromons, think what a mere merchant fleet did. I can assure you, the coast of Italy wouldn't have been sacked, our women rapped and their children killed, and our armies could reforce the defenses to expell the those beasts out of our limes."

"Yes, I truly know that the army is important, but remember how the ancient rome conquered the world. The sea were our roads, our perfect domain. The mediterraneum, the Mare Nostrum. Navy and army were together, vital one to another. Without the support of any of them, we are destined to fail."

"So I vote yes for a reformation of the navy, but a total one. You might qualify me as heretic, as a heathen worshipper for using the weapons of our enemy. But I tell you what I have seen, what you can see through my bendages. We must recover the total control of the Mediterraneum, that's the only way to secure the heart of the Imperium."

 

[Ponce_The_Great]

Senator Petrus Taurinus (Reds)

*Petrus rises, an amused grin on his face*

I must apologize noble Senator Seraphis, in my ignorance of the senate I had been given to believe the horrible libel of some who claimed the Whites were nothing more than madmen babbling nonsense. Instead you have proven to have great wisdom for the survival and well being of the Imperium, and indeed to ignore the wisdom of the Whites would be the real madness.

I must apologize my fellow senators, but I find it entertaining that talk has turned from simple reform of the navy to a grand armada of fantastical proportions.
Given the navy's track record, I must admit I fear if we were to arm our fleet with the floating fire or the barbarian's weapons they would simply succeed in setting themselves alight.
We can build floating islands of wood and load them up with whole legions of men, but the barbarians, as unfortunate as the fact is, can and will continue to amass and deploy countless more vessels than we could hope to match in numbers.
Let the barbarians waste their funds on building boats, we must spend what precious resources we have where it counts.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Senator Alexios Serapis of the White Demes
Alexios smiles, genuinely amused by Senator Este-Ravenna's reply. "Clearly waging war and making money have stronger appeals than serving the bureaucracy and faith. Perhaps it is a sign or the times. Or perhaps simply a sign of our age, most young men having little patience for clerical work either sacred or profane."

"You do make a good point, one which does not contradict what I have already said. War has it's proper time and place. The reconquest of Egyptus proved immensely profitable, the recent war for Carthage somewhat less so and the less said about the war in defence of Aquitaine the better. Having our fleets sunk and rebuilt every twenty years or so is however, along with our over-reliance on mercenaries the main drains on our finances. They are both signs of desperation, and we should adapt our strategies accordingly."
"Perhaps our navy can not defeat the Xenoi in open battle. Perhaps their capacity for equipping and maintaining a fleet is simply greater than ours no matter how much money we throw at the problem. If that is the case it would be foolish to try. We should instead subordinate the navy to the needs of the army and use it mainly against weaker foes and as a carrier of troops across short distances in the Mediterranean. It is apparent from the Xenoi's conduct of recent wars that they are content to simply destroy our own fleets in combat and blockade a few of our ports in the western Mediterranean. Their landing of troops in the eastern and central sea has been haphazard, and it seems logistics are preventing them from blockading the Bosporus. With that fact apparent it seems their fleets present a relatively small threat, unless we give them the battle they seek. Our strength is in the Army, and we should fight our enemies on our own terms, not on theirs."

Senator Giacomo Este-Ravenna of the Red Demes:
Giacomo mentally raises an eyebrow. He had not been expecting the lone White Deme to be anything approaching reasonable, let alone of nimble wit... this would be entertaining. He inclines his head in respect. "It is the wise man who acknowledges the wisdom of his elders. The Lord did give us all our parts to play in service to His designs, and faith is a treasure beyond counting."

"In the matter of the fleets I must respectfully disagree, noble Serapis. The Xenoi have shown the ability to launch major invasions across great distances. They raid our coasts with impunity. Worse, the Tagmata in Africa were harried by raiders, their supplies stretched thin. How many hundreds of Romans starved in the African sun? And, if we are ever to strike at the heart of darkness we must be able to fight them at sea.

Senator Diaver Kastelos (Blue Demes):
A young man, possibly the youngest of the senate, rests taking some distance from the debate, though near enough to be able to hear every single word. The Kasteloi, although present in every debate, were always busy with their trade company: the flow of money couldn't be stopped, requiring attention from every member of the family, and the increasing market of "heathen" goods, along with the secret treaties with Pisa, were being extremely benefitial... until now. The only thing that looked good in the Kastelos senator was its very clothes. Wearing the traditional senator clothes didn't help to hide the bandages he has around his body. Even his face haven't recovered from some visible scratches. He was the living representation of the state of the family.
"You don't know me, just like I don't know you, besides some known families that have been standing in this senate as long as mine." He took his walking stick, unusual for someone of his age, and he stood, as firmly as his conditions allowed. "I have no time for big presentations: I'm Diaver Kastelos, and I'm a survivor."
"Survivor of what, you might said?" He started to go down, getting closer to the heart of the discussion. "Survivor of the incompetence and narrowness of the people who leads the Imperium." Soon the whispers began to say the word heresy. "Obviously I did not mean the Emperor, no. I would not dare to say such thing, no."
"The army or the navy" and he sat, tired. "Its always the same thing"
"Its the people who dictate what kind of "strategy" and weapons we have to use to fight our enemies the one that is leading Rome to the border of the cliff. The sword and shield? Obviously, that has been the answer for ages. The bow? Hah, the man invented it when had to leave the Garden of Eden."
"Why do I talk about weapons, when we have to be discussing about our navy, or the exploration of the east?" He made a small grimace before continuing. "Its because we have been doing something terribly wrong."
"If you don't know, the kingdom has been released and now counts with the protection of the Basileus. I was there, in the coasts of Hispania, along with my family and the totality of our trade fleet. I'll not be humble: the participation of the Kasteloi was vital to the hispanian's revolts, some that were vital too for the victory of the Empire."
"But everything went wrong, fellow senators. We lost all of Aragon, except the capital. The Imperial Navy failed once more, and not because the romans were less brave than before, or the God's blessings were weaker that day, no. It was the ineptness of our military leaders, that have shown their inaptitude to keep our fleet strong. Our times are changing, senators. The sword, the shield and bow are nothing against the war machinery of the xenoi, and thats what halted our great victory, isolating our themas in Africa while the xenoi armies were attacking Italy."
"I've seen it with my own eyes. The fire they use, those... "cannons", as the aragonese call them after being under the dark dominium of the xenoi, are the key in our defeats. They not only use them against our soldiers, but against our ships. The wood is cracked, our veals burning before we could met the enemy in combat. Half of our fleet was drowning before the romans could aboard the enemy."
"And I, with total confidence, can say the next: even the merchant fleet of the Kasteloi fought better than the Imperial Navy." He sighed before saying the next. "Our revolted allies, under the lead of Joan II of Aragon, captured 300 pieces of "artillery". Two dozens were equipped in our ships. And while I lost my grandfather, my father and brother in the battle, with almost the entire fleet of the trade company, we sent to hell hundreds of those bastards."
"Imagine if we could "modernize" the Imperial Dromons, think what a mere merchant fleet did. I can assure you, the coast of Italy wouldn't have been sacked, our women rapped and their children killed, and our armies could reforce the defenses to expell the those beasts out of our limes."
"Yes, I truly know that the army is important, but remember how the ancient rome conquered the world. The sea were our roads, our perfect domain. The mediterraneum, the Mare Nostrum. Navy and army were together, vital one to another. Without the support of any of them, we are destined to fail."
"So I vote yes for a reformation of the navy, but a total one. You might qualify me as heretic, as a heathen worshipper for using the weapons of our enemy. But I tell you what I have seen, what you can see through my bendages. We must recover the total control of the Mediterraneum, that's the only way to secure the heart of the Imperium

"This is precisely the sort of thinking the Senate needs more of. Rome is not a raging bull, to ram her head repeatedly against the same foe with no thought to history nor strategy. Clearly, if the Imperium is to fight the devil worshippers at sea, our ships or tactics or both must adapt- two great defeats, thousands of dead Romans, cry out for such necessity. Taking the Xenoi weapons, using their sorcery against them... I cannot dare to speak as to its possible effects on the soul, but... these cannon, would be of great use in both the navy and the army, and the former in particular seems to hold the most potential. It must be considered at the least. Surely, if the Aragonese can use the Xenoi weapons against the Xenoi and yet remain in the light of the faith, good Romans, under the light of God and Saint Marcos, can do the same?"

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Gentlemen, please... Stop mocking the Imperium's navy for past failures. I seem to recall the army losing on land just as often as our navy. Do the lives of our soldiers mean less than the expenses on rebuilding a fleet? I wish to cooperate with the Red Demes, and even the sole White Deme has been reasonable so far... but continued discussion of why all of the Imperium's problems are because of our navy will dry my patience.

*Marcus nods to Senator Kastelos.*
I must thank you for what your family has done in service of the Imperium. Tell me, how would we go about using the Xenoi's tools? If it can be done, then I will gladly support any effort taken to save more innocent lives.

 

[Zqrfmb]

Senator Leon Cortez (Blue Demes):

*The young man, well, young for a senator, at least, previously unnoticed, rises up, speaking without the castillan accent of his family's previous representatives *
While there were no survivors at the battle at the pillars of Heracles, I have heard only talk of the ships in the navy being inadequate in one way or another, there is record of our dromonoi being able to fight off a wave of xenoi ships in records of a previous war within the gulf of Almeria despite having a smaller fleet at the time. Perhaps the xenoi, being more familiar with the pillars, were able to coax us into waters that favored their larger, wind-driven and less maneuverable ships, and we were simply outmaneuvered, rather than using an inferior force. With no survivors, it is difficult to determine the cause of such a defeat, and thus more difficult still to learn how to prevent it.

 

[Leandor]

Senator Leon Cortez (Blue Demes):

*The young man, well, young for a senator, at least, previously unnoticed, rises up, speaking without the castillan accent of his family's previous representatives *
While there were no survivors at the battle at the pillars of Heracles, I have heard only talk of the ships in the navy being inadequate in one way or another, there is record of our dromonoi being able to fight off a wave of xenoi ships in records of a previous war within the gulf of Almeria despite having a smaller fleet at the time. Perhaps the xenoi, being more familiar with the pillars, were able to coax us into waters that favored their larger, wind-driven and less maneuverable ships, and we were simply outmaneuvered, rather than using an inferior force. With no survivors, it is difficult to determine the cause of such a defeat, and thus more difficult still to learn how to prevent it.

Senator Diaver Kastelos (Blue Demes):

"Indeed, senator" affirmed Diaver. "There are not known survivors of the naval battle at the pillars, and yes, our Dromonoi were able to fight back the xenoi ships in the previous war." Strongly marked these last words. "That is something key: the previous war. The Dromon, as a warship, has been existing for centuries. Quick and versatile in close waters, they have protected our shores. The main problem here is that... the ships we fighted at the coast of Barcelona weren't the same that always. I guess you all have the picture of these cannons killing our soldiers in the battleground."

He makes the sign of the holy cross. "Saint Markos itself would claim God's mercy if he could see what I saw. Mountains of wood, firing that devil's treachery against MY fleet. I can't imagine a way to destroy those ships with the classic navy we all know. Yes, maybe the wind and the sea was a important factor, but I cannot find an strategy were a dromon could defeat such beast of the waters."

"Not only our navy has to modernize. Our army as well, in proper time. As Senator Este-Ravenna said, we can't know what kind of consecuences will have to the christian soul, but if not, there will be no christian to save."

"Its not about how we win." Again, a grimace showed in his face. "Its about winning and survive. I totally support both points of the Senatus Consultum."

Diaver took a breath. There were other topics to discuss.

"But, if we talk about the resolutions, I call to caution. Yes, I do support the expedition and the diplomatic mission, but exclusively in that order. We must know from what we will be protecting that "Ceylon island" before taking any risk. After analizing the map, I could say that it has a very strategic location, not only to install naval bases, some of the trade houses of the imperium could settle there too and, with their own resources, help Rome to establish diplomatic and trade relations. We have to think about those people not as mere heathens, if they are, but as customers. The Imperium has its riches and we could get a great amount of trade from it, selling goods as clothes and grain from Aegyptus. With a good policy of trade taxes, the debts would be gone soon."

 

[ParrotGuy]

Senator Antiochos Salamis (Blue Demes):
*The more merchant-friendly-than-his-father Senator arises.*
Honorable Senator Kastelos, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Using these, hm, canons is essential for the Imperium's survival. We cannot remain behind the Xenoi with our swords and
spears- which are of course important too- we must progress, use their destructive devices against them. I would also not count out using the legendary Greek Fire, it it still exists, which is a question I plan to ask Megas Droungarios.
It is appearent, Senator Kastelos, that you are very wise in matters of Navy. I would like to leave behind the, um, little disagreements and fights between our houses in the Aegean sea, and reach out for peace and mutual support.
As for you, Senator Serapis- it is appearent that your house hadn't changed one bit. All my father told me about your predecessor, I would tell my son about you. How can you ignore the achievements of the Kermanos expedition? You say that it only confirmed what was known- and I ask you, was it known that we will be able to vassalize a nation in such a strategic position as Ceylon, which would allow us to gain more knowledge about the area, more trade, more soldiers to fight for us in the east, more followers of the one true faith? No, we hadn't even dreamed of such a thing. And this achievement came from only one expedition- imagine what we may discover in more expeditions! Did the lord make this world to remain unexplored?
I would also ask you how, as a pious man who obviously supports the destruction of the Xenoi like every true Kristianoi, do you expect to fight them at their homeland?
Our fleet cannot become a petty transportation device if we want to defeat the Xenoi. We cannot allow the Xenoi ships to freely roam Mare Nostrum and raid our coasts, and we cannot push against their homeland without a strong fleet to counter their own. Furthermore, our... transportation fleet, which is what you want the Roman navy to become, will be easily hunted down and destoyed by the Xenoi ships, and all the transported soldiers will drown with the ships.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
{{At this rate, houses Salamis and Serapis will be sworn enemies These Senate rivalries are quite entertaining.}}

 

[KingJerkera]

Senator Maximos (Red Demes)

*Maximos sat down with a grim face but as time went on the face turned into a scowl and now he stands yet again to speak*

I see my words have had some effect upon the discussion it has not been the intended effect. I have seen nothing but dismissal after dismissal about the points I have raised since I sat down. I would like then to put in some more wise words. Firstly I do not believe that the war we fought for Aquitaine nearly 20 years ago is now being proven a vain struggle and made the death of Romans by the thousands vain. For all of you speak as though these are our great enemy not one time allies fallen astray. Yes I do understand that the war was inevitable the mad King is certainly a challenge to Imperial authority. However you speak of taking them apart like the heathens that surround us. Instead I implore you to consider the fact that if we beat this Kingdom enough they won't stand a chance against the Xenoi or the Pisans for that matter. Instead we should strive to make the damage limited instead of burning most of their hard work down. Secondly I point to the matter of possible vassalage of Ceylon. Firstly we haven't even met the leaders of this nation. Secondly they are so far away from us that our glory will be very downplayed. Thirdly they are heathens that regard our religion with outright mockery. All these combined will make any effort before we get closer irrelevant to actually convincing them to our cause.

On regards for ships and cannons, surprise, the Aquitainain kingdom already has much of what the Xenoi have. They have ships that tower over the sea and they have cannon. Chew on that for a moment my dear senators.

As for the fleet. I believe that the entirety of the rebuilding the noxious amount of galley-like boats that the Imperial treasury has build again is nothing short of a waste of enough resources on a front that was only mismanaged in the first place. If the naval officers hadn't been nothing short of brain-dead then the fleet would still be here and we could strike in many more places. The unfortunate fool of a Droungarios should consider himself lucky that he is dead. Therefore I propose that instead of using our precious resources on a project on an element of the empire that was only mismanaged I instead say that we should consider regulating and enhancing our monetary resources so that we can build more things and be in general less debt, like we are now to the tune of nearly 6 thousand ducats. I propose that we consider trade ideas instead of maritime ideas.

 

[McGrey]

Senator Titos Livios Melissenos (the Blues)

Hear, hear.

*Titos shouts before rising from his seat.*

My dear Senator Wedrowander, dismissal seams to be a common occurrence in this halls since non of you reds, allegedly experienced military men, have the will – or the ability – to answer the question I directed towards your Demes. But let us leave that behind.

Of course we could focus on more trade to fill the coffers of the empire again, an proposal that is surprising to hear from someone outside the Blues. But again, that would also require a strong navy, since most of all trade is done over the oceans and merchant-ships can't cross sees, that are controlled by Xenoi raiders or leave ports that are blockaded by Xenoi warships.

So for those of you who dismiss our navy, a counter proposal would be the strengthening of the internal economic framework of the empire. From simply enhancing the bureaucracy to make the tax collection more thorough and efficient towards higher centralization of all imperial financial processes. Even the imperial army might profit from this. {{Proposal: Economic Ideas}}

I would also like to add myself to those, that advocate using the enemies weapons against them. Wasn't that the way, the ancient roman empire won against their rival Carthago? And also in a naval matter, I might ad: Their navy was beaten by the carthaginians, until our roman predecessors gained one of the carthaginian ships, learned from that and constructed a new navy that destroyed their enemy leaving them in control of the mare nostrum. Why shouldn't we do the same, on water and on land?

 

[Zqrfmb]

Senator Leon Cortez (Blue Demes):

Senator Maximos (Red Demes)
...I propose that we consider trade ideas instead of maritime ideas.

While I do not believe trade is a bad source of money to pay off our debts, let us keep in mind our ability to propose a provincial tax system, finance is not my strong suit, but it seems like it would in the long run reduce our reliance on mercenaries that have so drained our coffers and keep down the cost of our military.