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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

viola

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Senator Frederik V Hvide
Honorable Senator Theophilus, with the Timurids at our doorstep would you not agree that it would be unwise to pull away resources from our millitary? Your suggested administrative reforms, while they would likely be highly effective in increasing efficiency in the cogs that keep the empire running and would be highly desirable in peacetime, i fear that we are not headed for an extended era of peace. For now i fear that the military needs all the resources the empire can muster, Army and Navy.
[SIZE=+1]Senator Theophilus Rhadenos[/SIZE]


I partially agree, after all I clearly stated that I was not opposing the reformation of our military. Yet I would also like to remember how an Administrative reforms could also help our army, after all wouldn't a superior Administration ensure better recruitment and military efficiency? It would also help us to use our resources in a more efficient manner and build even greater armies. And let us not forget the opportunities that can arise from a reformed Administration, especially for us of the minor houses who would shape and build close relationships with the new Administration, to better help the Imperium of course.

So, do not think that a reformed Administration is just some new way to keep our provinces under control, it's effect would be heavy and will be felt over the entire body of the Imperium, from the army to the navy, from the popular to the noble castes and even among the merchants. Everyone can profit from a revamped Administration, so I urge all Senators to think this decision carefully.

- Theophilus Rhadenos,
Metropolitan Bishop of Tiberias
 

drucchi

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[SIZE=+1]Senator Theophilus Rhadenos[/SIZE]


I partially agree, after all I clearly stated that I was not opposing the reformation of our military. Yet I would also like to remember how an Administrative reforms could also help our army, after all wouldn't a superior Administration ensure better recruitment and military efficiency? It would also help us to use our resources in a more efficient manner and build even greater armies. And let us not forget the opportunities that can arise from a reformed Administration, especially for us of the minor houses who would shape and build close relationships with the new Administration, to better help the Imperium of course.

So, do not think that a reformed Administration is just some new way to keep our provinces under control, it's effect would be heavy and will be felt over the entire body of the Imperium, from the army to the navy, from the popular to the noble castes and even among the merchants. Everyone can profit from a revamped Administration, so I urge all Senators to think this decision carefully.

- Theophilus Rhadenos,
Metropolitan Bishop of Tiberias
Senator Frederik V Hvide

I certainly agree that a revamped Administration will be a great benefit in the long run, i fear that reforms on that scale would doom the war for the reclamation of Agyptus before it has even begun, by drawing resources away from the war. In times of peace i would agree with you, and once the reforms had been completed i would send settelers south beyond Gondor to claim that land for the empire too, but unfortunately i fear neither options are feasible at the moment.
 

luciusmalfoy012

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Senator Frederik V Hvide

I certainly agree that a revamped Administration will be a great benefit in the long run, i fear that reforms on that scale would doom the war for the reclamation of Agyptus before it has even begun, by drawing resources away from the war. In times of peace i would agree with you, and once the reforms had been completed i would send settelers south beyond Gondor to claim that land for the empire too, but unfortunately i fear neither options are feasible at the moment.
Senator Domenico Colombo:

There are many worthy goals, Senator Hvide, but in these dark times, pragmatism must be before idealism. Perhaps there will come a day when the Imperium finds new lands, converts the world to the true faith, and finds true peace, but that time is not now. The military is the way forward now, and if we manage to reclaim Egypt without crippling the Imperium, perhaps those other dreams can come true too.

It is important to remember that we all care deeply about the Imperium, the only disagreements are about how to achieve that. We are brothers in faith, and in arms.
 

Zqrfmb

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{{As I said, I'm tweaking the Faction modifiers - I consider changing the whole "modifiers-have-to-balance-out" approach into something simpler or even just make it so that every Faction just gives bonuses with no negative modifiers. If you have some ideas please share them with me - the Factions were made for the Senators, no the other way around.

But you shouldn't really concentrate on which Faction is going to be in charge for the next, what, 10-15 years at most? The first idea group is immensely important because Imperium will be using it for the next 400 years. Whatever bonuses it'll provide, I'm going to use them during basically the whole campaign. So it's much more important to choose first idea group wisely than to base this decision on Faction modifiers (which are going to change one way or another - AoW introduced local autonomy, for instance, so I have to include this somehow).

Just my 5 cents :) }}
{{The thing about the modifiers is that the readers generally agree which bonus would be good right now, in the future, I would assume things would get more divisive as our options will open up, where the negatives would make things more interesting; though it'd still impose a hard and fast rule that the reds and whites hate colonization, the blues are neglectful of the military, and the whites are... less effective miltarily when the senators in those demes themselves may have nothing against colonization, or a senator who's a military officer takes leadership of the blue demes.

Also, as far as I'm aware, the propsed ideas so far are looking towards the future as much as the immediate, admin and aristocracy are generally taken with the future in mind, and I see the vast manpower boosts of quantity as a good investment for 400 years of grimdark}}
 

varetta

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{{As I said, I'm tweaking the Faction modifiers - I consider changing the whole "modifiers-have-to-balance-out" approach into something simpler or even just make it so that every Faction just gives bonuses with no negative modifiers. If you have some ideas please share them with me - the Factions were made for the Senators, no the other way around.
((In my opinion, the best way is to give a big bonus or a few small bonuses and no penalty at all.))

But you shouldn't really concentrate on which Faction is going to be in charge for the next, what, 10-15 years at most? The first idea group is immensely important because Imperium will be using it for the next 400 years. Whatever bonuses it'll provide, I'm going to use them during basically the whole campaign. So it's much more important to choose first idea group wisely than to base this decision on Faction modifiers (which are going to change one way or another - AoW introduced local autonomy, for instance, so I have to include this somehow).

Just my 5 cents :) }}
((I do not understand the point of voting for something "because I am in faction X". From a role playing POV it can be very logic to vote for something in a different group of ideas. For example, Naval ideas are considered military ideas but would be more useful for blues than for reds (my character would oppose such a reform with current circumstances). Every one is free to act as he consider, of course, but I just wanted to highlight something that in my opinion is happening and shouldn´t.))
 

KingJerkera

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{{A lot of points have been made and I think that the biggest problem is that without question the Xenoi blob to the west is making me really nervous that the situation will basically boil down to this. Either we sit and wait and then one enemy declares war and the rest pile in or we win one war then a coalition is made and they all come in and destroy the empire. I like that there are both good and bad bonuses but quite frankly if the AI senses through those bonuses that we are weaker in any way they'll all declare war, I think that in the early stages the bonuses and faults of the factions should be smaller, and as time goes on, the bonuses and faults can become bigger as the senate is more acknowledged in power. That's my two cents at this point.}}

Senator Septimark Wedrovander
I'm very disappointed that our faction leader can not see beyond the ideal of war and consider internal reform of our civil society. It is very much a shame that you cannot be asked nor pleaded to avoid such confrontation. Do not count my vote solidly for you at this time senator for my faith in you is shaken. And to Maximos, our emperors representative, I have a question considering the offering of monopolies. Does the emperor wish to reinforce the monopolies of the past or all such null and void?

{{A sneaky suggestion for helping encourage the blues to vote and to increase their title pool is the declaration of monopoly over certain goods and specifically in certain areas and for certain ports. Like for example, the house of X has monopoly right to carry goods of iron to X port. If it is a bad idea it is what it is if it is a good idea I would consider making an offer of such titles as a way to encourage voting aspects.}}
 

Zqrfmb

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{{I'm not sure we'll have to worry about a coalition, AE takes religion and culture into account, so I highly doubt the aztecs will care that the timurids have lost a swath of land to the imperium, the horde might if we take enough and then also truce break for more, but a coalition needs three members to dogpile us}}
 

Undead Martyr

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{{I'm not sure we'll have to worry about a coalition, AE takes religion and culture into account, so I highly doubt the aztecs will care that the timurids have lost a swath of land to the imperium, the horde might if we take enough and then also truce break for more, but a coalition needs three members to dogpile us}}
{{Really with such a consolidated Europe I'm not worried about Coalitions- only the Aztec blob smashing us with sheer numbers}}
 

eliaspays

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[SIZE=+1]Senator Helios IV Eliasian:[/SIZE]
*After staying silent for a long time, Helios speaks up*
Indeed, even though I will want to send an exploration to the far labds of Hindkarstan as soon as possible, I conced that for now, I will have to wait for this. Now, having thr whites being in power for now, would be a very bad thing in my opinion. While they do have some reasonable members *looks at Rhadenos*, some other members I fear the consequences of them leading *looks at Ioannes*. Thus, while the military is not as good as exploration, I will still prefer Military reformation, especially if the navy will be improved as well, to administrative reformations.
 

CzokletMuss

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(...) I think that in the early stages the bonuses and faults of the factions should be smaller, and as time goes on, the bonuses and faults can become bigger as the senate is more acknowledged in power. That's my two cents at this point.}}
{{This is an interesting idea - I could tie the Faction bonuses to the technology level, so that with every 5 levels in, say, Military technology the Reds gain a new bonus. I like this :)}}

[size=+2]IMPORTANT:[/size] The voting shall begin in 24 hours (more or less) and so far none of the Faction Leaders has officialy proposed amendments to the bill. If you want your version of the said bill to be voted on, you should do this as soon as possible. A regular post in which you explicitly state which idea group you propose in the name of your Faction will suffice, but you have time until the end of the debate to do this.
 

luciusmalfoy012

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Senator Domenico Colombo:

As the Faction Leader of the Red Demes, I formally propose the following Amendment to the bill before this esteemed Senate:


Restauratio Fortitudinis Imperii Act (Senatus Consultum)

The Imperial Senate, excersicing legislative power it was given by the Sacred Emperor Markos III Angelos, basileus basileon by the Grace of God, king of kings and rulers of rulers, Caesar Augustus of the Romaioi and all Men, Autokrator of the Holy Church and Protector of the Christendom, acting on authority of His Imperial Majesty and with His approval, decided what follows:

1. That the Imperium Romanum, its Administration, Army and Navy, and all Logothesia are in a dire need of a Reform.
2. That such Reform is necessary for the preservation of the Imperium and all Roman citizens and all Christians.
3. That the Imperial Senate and all Noble Houses support His Imperial Majesty absolutely and with no hesitation in all matters and all actions taken by Him.
4. That His Imperial Majesty, guided by the Holy Spirit and with Saint Markos' blessing, accurately and properly determined that such Reform has to begin with Sanatio of the Imperial Administration.
5. That all Senators agree that the matter of the foremost priority for the Imperium is in fact Military Reform (Quantity Ideas).

Bill adopted by the Imperial Senate on [DAY] November 1444 year and submitted to His Imperial Majesty for approval on the same day.


{Changes are in bold, the rest is the original bill.}

For God, Emperor, and Imperium! To victory!
 

Serpent

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<<This looks like fun. Pity I was too late to join the Senate (and that I can't assassinate a few senators to open up a spot for nomination ;)). I've followed This is Madness in Ck2 and (if God and Emperor allows) I will continue to enjoy this epic story for a long time to come. Best of luck to you all.>>

<<And CzokletMuss if you're keeping a list of alternates, please consider putting me on it.>>
 

CzokletMuss

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<<This looks like fun. Pity I was too late to join the Senate (and that I can't assassinate a few senators to open up a spot for nomination ;)). I've followed This is Madness in Ck2 and (if God and Emperor allows) I will continue to enjoy this epic story for a long time to come. Best of luck to you all.>>

<<And CzokletMuss if you're keeping a list of alternates, please consider putting me on it.>>
{{Sure thing! :)


[size=+1]Faction Leaders: only two hours left to propose your amendments![/size]
}}
 

viola

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[SIZE=+1]Senator Theophilus Rhadenos[/SIZE]


The Whites shall support His Imperial Majesty's proposal of a Reformed Administration as it stands, and do not wish to make any amendment.

- Theophilus Rhadenos,
Metropolitan Bishop of Tiberias
 

CzokletMuss

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[size=+2]FIRST SENATE SESSION - VOTING[/size]



Illustrious doux Maximos Komnenos, President of the Imperial Senate and Prefect of Konstantinoupolis, hereby annouces that

[size=+2]THE DEBATE HAS ENDED[/size]

During the debate the following amendments to the bill of His Imperial Majesty were proposed (changes in red):​

Senator Domenico Colombo:
As the Faction Leader of the Red Demes, I formally propose the following Amendment to the bill before this esteemed Senate:

Restauratio Fortitudinis Imperii Act (Senatus Consultum)

The Imperial Senate, excersicing legislative power it was given by the Sacred Emperor Markos III Angelos, basileus basileon by the Grace of God, king of kings and rulers of rulers, Caesar Augustus of the Romaioi and all Men, Autokrator of the Holy Church and Protector of the Christendom, acting on authority of His Imperial Majesty and with His approval, decided what follows:

1. That the Imperium Romanum, its Administration, Army and Navy, and all Logothesia are in a dire need of a Reform.
2. That such Reform is necessary for the preservation of the Imperium and all Roman citizens and all Christians.
3. That the Imperial Senate and all Noble Houses support His Imperial Majesty absolutely and with no hesitation in all matters and all actions taken by Him.
4. That His Imperial Majesty, guided by the Holy Spirit and with Saint Markos' blessing, accurately and properly determined that such Reform has to begin with Sanatio of the Imperial Administration.
5. That all Senators agree that the matter of the foremost priority for the Imperium is in fact Military Reform ( Quantity Ideas).

Bill adopted by the Imperial Senate on [DAY] November 1444 year and submitted to His Imperial Majesty for approval on the same day.

For God, Emperor, and Imperium! To victory!
***
Illustrious doux Maximos Komnenos, President of the Imperial Senate and Prefect of Konstantinoupolis, hereby annouces that the the required quorum of 12 Senators according to Album Senatorium has been satisfied and that the voting may begin. The Imperial Senate shall now vote on the following:
  1. the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty, Sacred Emperor Markos III Angelos, basileus basileon by the Grace of God, king of kings and rulers of rulers, Caesar Augustus of the Romaioi and all Men, Autokrator of the Holy Church and Protector of the Christendom;
  2. the aforementioned bill with the amendments of the Red Demes.
in accordance with the rules of the law:
Article 22 – Voting
1. Every Senator has 1 vote. Senators vote using ballots.
2. During voting Senators are allowed to make only one statement (1 post) which has to include vote in a proper form (ballot).
3. The statement (1 post) may include closing argument no longer than five sentences.
4. Senators may vote only in this thread and in-character.
5. Vote is invalid if:
- it doesn't fulfill the formal requirements;
- Senator voted writing out-of-character;
- Senator made more than 1 post during voting;
- Senator edited the post in which he voted;
- Senator voted after the voting has been closed;
- Senator voted in other place than this thread.
6. Non-Senators (regular readers) are advised not to post during the voting.
[size=+1]BALLOTS[/size]
Voting Ballots
1. Bill of His Imperial Majesty
„The House XXX votes FOR the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty (Administrative Idea).”

2. Bill of His Imperial Majesty – with amendments of the Red Demes
„The House XXX votes FOR the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty with amendments of the Red Demes (Quantity Idea).”


Faction Ballots
Article 11-2 – Membership
4. Senators join, leave or stay in the Senate Faction during the Senate Session by including the following obligatory statement in the ballot during voting:
- „Senator <name> LEAVES <name> Faction.”
- „Senator <name> JOINS <name> Faction.”
- „Senator <name> LEAVES <name> Faction and JOINS <name> Faction.”
- „Senator <name> STAYS IN <name> Faction.”
- „Senator <name> REMAINS UNAFFILIATED.”
written in bolded text.

[size=+1]Voting shall last 1 day, that is from 10:00 PM 8th November (Saturday) until 10:00 PM 9th November (Sunday) Warsaw time. [/size]

[size=+2]THE VOTING HAS BEGUN
***[/size]
 

varetta

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Senator Michael Scipion:

The House Scipion votes FOR the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty with amendments of the Red Demes (Quantity Idea).

Senator Michael Scipion STAYS IN Red demes Faction.
 

viola

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[SIZE=+1]Senator Theophilus Rhadenos[/SIZE]

Let the Shiite heathens tremble before the mighty of the Eternal Empire, soon Egypt shall be once again graced by the Light of Rome!


The House Rhadenos votes FOR the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty (Administrative Idea).

The House Rhadenos ABSTAIN from voting the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty with amendments of the Red Demes (Quantity Idea).

- Theophilus Rhadenos,
Metropolitan Bishop of Tiberias
 

luciusmalfoy012

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Senator Domenico Colombo:


The House Colombo votes AGAINST the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty (Administrative Idea).

The House Colombo votes FOR the bill introduced by His Imperial Majesty with amendments of the Red Demes (Quantity Idea)

Let the enemies of the Empire tremble in front of the might of the Imperial Army! To Glory and Victory!

- Domenico Colombo,
Tourmarches of Alexandria