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    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Attalus

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Senator Alexandros Raoul :
"In the current situation yes, but those who support the war with Pisa will clearly see the benefits of such a policy. Moreover you will forgive me but I have a hard time believing you Whites can ease the admnistrative burden of the Imperium."
 

ThetrueColt

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Senator Decius Pylaeus

I admire your optimism, but the situation after a war with Pisa is uncertain. Could it be better? Yes. Could it be worse? Certainly. You have a hard time believing that experts of the administration can improve it? Are you serious? Who would be more suited for the task?
 

DKM

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{{You know, if politics in the Imperium are already this polarized, I can't wait to see the trainwreck that goes by the name of Senate once Nationalism and Civil and Workers' Rights are introduced in the Victoria section of the game.}}
 
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McGrey

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Senator Titos Livios Melissenos

I think, dear Decius, that the other Demes are still trapped in times past, when our fathers and grandfathers inhabited this halls and the Whites were religious fanatics. Of course, times have changed and so has the White Demes, but apparently the others have not. But how do they want to help the empire in it's current situation, when they have a mindset of a century ago?
 

CzokletMuss

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tunapirate

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Senator Pau de Mallorca; Red Deme
I would remind my fellow Senators that the benefits of an invasion of Pisa are threefold--primarily, we seek to remit our debts and the Pisan coffers, if ill-gained, certainly could be put towards such a task. However, securing the coast of Narbonensis would not only cripple the traitorous Pisani but would also allow Immortalii to march from Palaestina to Barcino without the necessity of naval transport. Should the internal conflict of the Aliae continue we may be able to use this connection to reclaim all of Hispania--the silver mines of Baetica would again enrich our coffers.

Any attempt to reason with the Pisani is doomed to failure; they have proven willing to feed us to the Aliae and their false gods before and I do not doubt that they would be willing to do so again, if convenient for their income.

Hispania must be reconquered.

{{ Could someone with actual familiarity with Latin provide a translation of Athanatoi for me? pls }}
 

CzokletMuss

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Attalus

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Senator Alexandros Raoul :

"You will excuse me, Whites if I have offended you. I just find the whole idea of admnistrative specialists saving the Economy without even having set foot in our markets or in the minesto be interesting. I hope you will all prove more faithful than some Whites of the past. My main concern is that the production ressources will not increase while riches from trade can only increase if we go to war against Pisa. I know you doubt the success of such an operation but I am confident in the power of our Emperor and our armies and those who lead them, don't you senators ?"

{{ Also I can't seem to get the right numbers with all these percentages ... Shame on me :p }}
 
Last edited:

McGrey

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Senator Titos Livios Melissenos

We do not doubt that a war against Pisa would be successful in a military sense, but it is our believe that the ratio between costs and benefits might be to low. Not only is war always a costly affair, since things like supplying and reinforcing our troops does cost money, even after the war we need garrisons in the conquered regions and wont get much money out of them for quite a while, since drastic changes in administration due to war are always a confusing matter that can't be done in a day.
 

Undead Martyr

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{{You know, if politics in the Imperium are already this polarized, I can't wait to see the trainwreck that goes by the name of Senate once Nationalism and Civil and Workers' Rights are introduced in the Victoria section of the game.}}
{{Nationalism and Liberalism as we know them OTL are likely butterflied away; in a world gone mad the "present" will be all but unrecognizable... that said some form of "democracy" liberalism and/or republicanism may well develop, but it will draw from trade/the rise of an international middle class, growing literacy and/or industrialization (assuming this still happens... not a given, especially with a vastly different "Colombian Exchange") and lean even more heavily on classical (i.e. Roman) traditions, with a bit of Orthodoxy's state run religion/localized patriarchies mixed in. Monarchies and religion would almost certainly be more influential regardless.
Italy/the West may quite possibly have some sort of "Western Roman Revivalists" seeking to divide Rome into two parts once again, (perhaps led by an ambitious Angeloi second son?), the reconquered areas are likely going to have a "New World" style creole culture of European, American, and African influences, places like Poland and (if they survive) the British Isles will have their own cultures, heck even Aquitaine and the Germans could see their own nationalist movements...}}

Senator Alexandros Raoul :

"You will excuse me, Whites if I have offended you. I just find the whole idea of admnistrative specialists saving the Economy without even having set foot in our markets or in the minesto be interesting. I hope you will all prove more faithful than some Whites of the past. My main concern is that the production ressources will not increase while riches from trade can only increase if we go to war against Pisa. I know you doubt the success of such an operation but I am confident in the power of our Emperor and our armies and those who lead them, don't you senators ?"

{{ Also I can't seem to get the right numbers with all these percentages ... Shame on me :p }}
Senator Giacomo Este Ravenna of the Red Demes:

"Contrary to what the Blues might think, the economy is far more than mere commerce. I trust Senator Pylaeus' numbers more than mercantile grandstanding."

{{Historically pre-industrial societies were overwhelmingly rural and agrarian. It doesn't surprise me that we're getting more from production than trade regardless...}}
 

ThetrueColt

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Senator Decius Pylaeus

*Decius answers to Titos in private.*

"It delights me to see us working together as friends, no matter our difference in age. I'm really not sure about war with Pisa - if we just make them pay, the money might not be enough. If we make use of their merchant connections {{force transfer trade power}} it will further strain our diplomatical corps since they have to ensure that we get the results we want, albeit any gain will only be temporary. Do you think that a war with such a forced-merchant-goods-transfer would be more beneficial than supporting the army? Do you think the reds would oppose going to war with Pisa?"

*Decius raises his voice again.*


"Senator Raoul, what exactly do you want to gain from Pisa? Their treasuries, forcing them to pay prolonged tribute and maybe a province or two, that's what I take for granted. Do you have something else in mind?" {{e.g. force transfer trade power}}

"Senator Este-Ravenna, thank you for your vote of confidence. I will try what I can to prove that we are not like the white senators of the past and that our choices are solely based on reason and concern for the sake of the Imperium. Do you know what your fellow colleagues of the red demes think? Would you support or even formally propose a policy akin to my draft?"



{{
{{ Also I can't seem to get the right numbers with all these percentages ... Shame on me :p }}
I don't think it's a problem - your character is not a white, there is no reason why he should be an expert in economics in other areas than trade.}}
 

Zqrfmb

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Senator Leon Cortez:

Leon had been sitting and observing the senate session since its beginning, noting the points many other senators have made, finally he believes there have been sufficient spilling of opinions by other senators for him to feel he could make an argument appeal to the right people.

"Since my expertise is on the western wing of the great eagle that is the Imperium, I would like to weigh in on the subject of Pisa. They are loyal not to Imperium or Xenoi, but to themselves and only themselves. They will side with whichever is more profitable, and this, I believe, is why they decided to negotiate more favorable mercantile contracts with the xenoi and revoke their official protection. This is why their aggression directly against the Imperium has been reduced, they wish to become neutral and profit from both Imperium and Xenoi. This means that a force driven by greed is taking in both our money, and the money of our foes, so asserting dominance over their economy would both benefit us and harm the Xenoi, so liberating Pisa of their wealth would do well to pay our soldiers and give the churches their due, along with shut the more vocal usurers up. It's just a matter of how that money is taken, in peace or war.

Any war with Pisa must be a quick affair, using as few of our resources as possible, blockading their ports and sealing their armies on Corsica while our armies already in Italia occupy their cities. At the first sign of trouble, the pisans will find ways to hide and smuggle out their wealth, so that there is little of it left in any territorial acquisitions from them. If, however, we were to ransom their land back to them after occupying it, that wealth would mysteriously re-appear in our hands. This quick raid would not be costly in money, and with hopefully few if any battles, low in the cost of lives both roman and pisan."

Alternatively, we could attempt to siphon their trade in peace, as senator Di Capponi mentioned. A policy of benefits to traders who are in competition with foreigners would give us an edge over Pisa {{Trade Power, evenly split with the other benefit}} while the increase in goods acquired would filter back in and outweigh the cost of the benefits immensely, possibly not as profitable as increasing our production, but it has the benefit of taking money from our foes, rather than those goods making it to them and indirectly benefiting them. Senator Arrius would have to officially propose this, but I personally believe that since our western acquisitions are still rife with Xenoi blasphemers, and I'm certain our acquisitions from the horde are as well, a portion of the money gotten from there should be given to the church for the purpose of missionary work{{+1 missionary, or +missionary strength}}. After all, what good are all our acquisitions if the people in our land are waiting to stab us in the back for their false gods?

A medium between peace and war with the pisan issue is raiding. Pisa relies more on caravans than they previously did, espeically in trade from the Xenoi's european land, enough so that horseback raiders could make good money. Pisa and the xenoi have very little experience with horse-lords, while we have the moldavoi at our beck and call. Enlisting them to raid overland trade would give us the same degree of trading power that benefits for the traders would give, and improve the tactics of our cavalry in general with mongol riders' agility filling in where our Kataphraktoi's sheer might alone would not be enough {{cavalry combat ability}}.

I leave the trade of opinions on this matter to Senator Arrius."

{{Jeez, I go two days without checking this thread during a session and ONLY have five pages to read through? I'm disappointed, CLEARLY there has not been enough hot air.}}
 
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varetta

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Senator Aetius Scipion:

*Aetius is growing more and more anxious because the lack of intervention from the Red speaker. He decides to say something to his demes partners:

Dear Senators, it is my opinion that this time Whites deal is better, for us and for the Empire. Besides I would like to give them a reason to continue with this new attitude instead the religious madness they has us costumed to.

About war with Pisa, as you probably share with me, I feel in the deepest part of me that we should crush them. But I am not sure if this war will solve, at least in part, our economic problems or if by opposite it will increase them even more. I think we must chose this time the option better for the Aerarium.


((Honestly, I would like to know what option will be better for the economy))

*To all the Senate:

Dear colleages, I want to recite something that a wish man said long time ago "Know yourself and you will lose one of one hundred battles; know yourself and your enemy and you will never be defeated". We need to explore Cathay even with current state of our finances. We can be in front of our better friend or our worst enemy but the sooner we know it the sooner we can start preparing for it. I will vote for the exploration and, if circumstances in the diplomatic corp allow it, for the diplomatic mission.
 

CzokletMuss

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President of the Senate Nikephoros Dalassenos:

Nikephoros Dalassenos sits silently in an ebony armchair with two eunuchs standing by his side, one of them carrying the Fasces of the Imperial Senate. He strikes his beard listening to the debate and playing with golden rings on fingers of his left hand. At some point he notices that the shadows on the floor of Magnaura have moved – midday has come. He gives a sign to the carrier of the Fasces and gets up from his armchair. The eunuch hits the stone floor of the Great Hall with iron ending of the sceptre, then bows and hands him the Fasces. Silence fills Magnaura as all Senators stop talking and turn towards the middle of the room. President of the Senate leans on the sceptre and raises his left hand.

- The midday has come, senators. I hereby announce recess of the Fifth Senate Session. – Nikephoros nods towards the two guardsmen standing by the door leading to the garden of Magnaura, who immediately open them – Food and beverages were prepared for you in the peristyle. When the time is ready I'll sent for you and the debate will continue. – Nikephoros Dalassenos hands over the Fasces to the eunuch and sits in his armchair. He waives at one of the eunuchs to bring him meal to his table.


{{ As a reminder: During recess the debate is suspended: this means that your characters MAY NOT talk publicly (adressing all Senators). You may however talk in private with whoever you want: members of your Demes, members of other Demes or unaffiliated Senators. Eat, drink and socialize but remember, you may only talk with few other Senators at the same moment. The Factions are welcome to organize small “meetings”.

The recess will last for 24 hours and after that (23:00 Monday) we will resume the debate.
}}
 

TheAnguishedOne

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Senator Marcus Arrius

*Marcus approaches Senator di Capponi now that the recess has begun.*

Marcello, may I speak with you? You seem like a wise man, a man I can speak with from the Whites. There are men in the Blues who believe you are reasonable, myself included. I wish to reach an agreement between our factions, one that could benefit our economy and the people of Pisa.
 

TurtleShroom

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{ OOC: The clergymen of Bubba's family are far more fluent in Greek and Latin than the lay Azizids. You must remember that Bubba and his family's mission is to Mongols, so they don't need much, if any, training in Roman languages to spread the Gospel. That's why Bubba's understanding of the official Roman languages is basic. The clergy in the Azizid line are far better at speaking the proper Roman tongues, but they too have very thick accents and use Mongol terminology out of habit, not out of a lack of fluency. You have to remember the flocks that Azizid bishops shepherd are almost entirely Mongol and speak that language as their first. It's easier to teach the converts in their language rather than expect them to understand complex theology and fundamental truths in Greek or Latin. }

---------

Senator Bubba Azizid

Bubba had some more to say during the later parts of the first session, but his humble nature forbade him to interrupt others. He heard some things he agreed with and some he did not, and he couldn't wait to make that known.

After eating and drinking his fill and spending some time alone in prayer, Bubba limped his way to Senator Wedrovander.

"
Nöker, your speech on Pisa was particularly impressive. I had not really made a determination on the time in which Pisa should be attacked, but your arguments certainly convinced me otherwise. I can see the merit of waiting and paying down our debts; indeed, I had earlier called for our debts to be addressed first. Personally, I'd go with the proposal to boost production over trade, because the budgets clearly show what makes more money for the Imperium. I can safely say that I will not advocate for imminent war with Pisa. I must ask, though, what you think of the argument some in the Blue Khural proposed, myself included. Instead of annexing Pisa and dismantling the infrastructure that made them so wealthy, why not purge the state of Xenoi and install an Orthodox Doge whose mission is to make us money? When we attack Pisa down the road, we should move to make them an otugus bo'ol, surrendering their wealth as tribute and trade for us."

The Mongol smiled, and gestured to his
Deel.

"As you can see, the belt is purple. Purple is a color of Rome and I wear it as a symbol of allegiance to the Holy
Khagan Angeloi, the only man worthy of the high title, God's Regent on earth. The Deel is white; historically, men in the Roman Khuraltai wore that. This is also the same robe I wore when I knelt before the Holy Khagan and accepted his blessing for me to represent my clan in these great halls."

Bubba smiled warmly, as he normally did.
 

CzokletMuss

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Senator Bubba Azizid
The Mongol smiled, and gestured to his [/I]Deel.
"As you can see, the belt is purple. Purple is a color of Rome and I wear it as a symbol of allegiance to the Holy
Khagan Angeloi, the only man worthy of the high title, God's Regent on earth. The Deel is white; historically, men in the Roman Khuraltai wore that. This is also the same robe I wore when I knelt before the Holy Khagan and accepted his blessing for me to represent my clan in these great halls.
{{ Oh boy...
VII. RULES OF THE INTERACTIVE AAR
RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE IMPERIAL SENATE
CHAPTER II – THE IMPERIAL SENATE
SECTION 2: ORGANIZATION

(...)
Article 10-1 – Violations and penalties
1. Senator who violates the rules may be:
- issued a warning;
- prohibited from voting during the next Senate Session;
- removed from office.
2. Noble House whose representatives in the Senate violate the rules notoriously may be:
- issued a warning;
- temporarily suspended from participating in the interactive part of this AAR;
- permanently banned from participating in the interactive part of this AAR.
3. User whose Noble House was suspended or banned shall be reported to the Forum Moderators.
4. Penalties are administered by the President of the Senate.
5. The following are considered capital offense:
- insulting, offending or disrespecting Saint Markos Isapostolos;
- critisicing the Emperor or the Great House Angelos;
- questioning the Divine Providence which guides the Emperor in all his actions;
- commiting blasphemy, especially by promoting or encouraging idolatry, faithlessness, sorcery, aposthasy, sodomy, shamelessness, immorality, wickedness et cetera;
- wearing purple clothes;
and are punishable by mutilation and death by burning.
Bubba smiled warmly, as he normally did.
"Warmly", you said - that's not a very, uhm, fortunate choice of words. }}
 
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McGrey

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{{Who's in for BBQ in the recess time?}}
 
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coragamy

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{{Actually I believe it was a very deliberate choice of words. And too bad we don't have the old whites to froth at the mouth for the chance to burn someone}}