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Zqrfmb

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (Blue demes):
I support the Both of the Cortez amendaments, however only if we will eventually annex Aquitaine when we're ready.
The imperium will stretch from africa to hispania to germania again, and Aquitaine is a necessary step towards that, I would never propose the imperium let such a stepping stone out of our grasp.

{{So, since an amendment dictating the terms of peace with Aquitaine is gaining traction (assuming nothing gets in the way of flattening them), I'd like to know just how much micromanaging is allowed in an amendment}}
 

CzokletMuss

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{{ I would say no more than you already included in it. }}
 

Attalus

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{{ I wonder Czoklet if you could annex/vassalize Aquitaine in one go. It seems to be a pretty big thing }}
 

Serpent

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Senator Alexios Serapis of the White Demes

*Alexios follows the debate, that had suddenly turned into quite a placid direction, occasionally eating an olive and sipping on a glass of wine. It seemed increasingly clear that his amendment would fail in the Senate, but he had never truly expected it to reach the required greater majority. Human nature could, after all, rarely be denied. Nevertheless, not everything was lost even in defeat. The White Demes may yet have been strengthened by his struggles, and only good could come from that.*

{{Re-posting in order to split my amendment and policy to two posts}}
Senator Leon Cortez(Blue Demes):

AMENDMENT OF SENATOR CORTEZ
I wish to amend Senatus Consultum 5: Terms of peace – Aquitaine (annexation)
While I do believe the people of Aquitaine are good christians under the dominion of a wicked madman, I do believe that taking all of them under imperial protection would overextend us to an unacceptable degree, and thus pisan raiders would have easy access through our limes and cause a great deal of unrest not only in Aquitaine but also in Italia and Carthago, therefore I believe the mad "emperor" should be made to submit to three conditions:
First: The mad king disband his pathetic 'empire' that means literally nothing, as he has no authority over the remaining german states. Permanantly. All imperial regalia will given over and melted down. I would guess this would be enforced on him even if this amendment failed, but it does not hurt to repeat.
Second: The mad king submit to the true emperor's mercy, whatever it may be, and the nobility of Aquitaine pay tribute to Imperium Romanum as a vassal state until such a time that it can be annexed without the threat of pisan raiding and chaos.
Third: The mad king pay for his insolence by forefeiting some of Aquitaine's territories up front, a more managable amount than the entire kingdom, preferably a stretch of land that gives the imperium a land connection to the ocean beyond the Mare Nostrum, to support raiding of Xenoi trade fleets and keep a watchful eye on the brittanic provinces.
Senator Leon Cortez (Blue Demes):

POLICY OF SENATOR CORTEZ
Since nobody has proposed the policy of provinical taxation our recent administrative reforms have allowed for, I shall be the one to do it.
Since our reforms to the administration and military to provide a maximal amount of labor and manpower at a reduced cost, we have been able to get accurate figures of the wealth and availability of able-bodied men in an individual province. Therefore, if we were to adapt our taxation system on a provinical level, reducing the burden on themata depleted of men to fight or work the fields and making up the difference across richer themata, we would ultimately come out with more men for the Tagmata, thereby reducing our need for mercenaries, as well as less of an overhead cost for their upkeep, to reduce the expenditures of the imperium. This is, of course, at a cost, as many nobles who normally are in charge of leading the Tagmata will have to focus more on implementing this policy than leading troops, but it is a good alternative or supplement to economic reform.

*Senator Alexios Serapis of the White demes supports Senator Cortez's amendment and policy*

"I too support Senator Cortez's amendment and his policy. While the administration is not overtaxed, contrary to what some have claimed, annexing all of Aquitaine at once would be too heavy a burden. The resulting unrest, not only in Aquitaine but throughout our war-weary Imperium could have dangerous consequences."

"Senator Cortez speaks most ably for a reformed provincial taxation system. Indeed, it would be an excellent supplement to Economic reforms, or perhaps help stave off financial collapse by a few years if Economic reforms are not passed."

"It bodes well for the standing of the Senate that your proposals gain such wide support, Senator Cortez."


Senator Maximos Wedrovander (Red Demes):

I must actually admit that I support both cortez proposals. Both that of policy and of the amendment considering Aquitaine. I'm also sorry about not being clear before. I Senator Maximos Wedrovander support Senator Serapis Admendment proposal fully this session. I could almost hear my grandfather cheering for that last statement. Lastly before I sit down again for a time I wish to voice my opinion on the Red Demes considerations when we are in "Official" control. My opinion is that we will need better logistics to operate anywhere in vast numbers, not just the desert {{ I support -5% land attrition}}. Lastly I believe that anything that would detract from the treasury at this time, that would impede on our efforts in the field should be discouraged until we have paid those loans back.

{{Edit: wrong senator :oops::rolleyes:}}
"Thank you Senator Wedrovander. I am sure your ancestors look down on you from heaven with great pride." *And mine are looking up at me from hell, he thinks to himself.*

{{I can't keep track of us all either ;) Don't forget to agree to my post on pg 149.}}

--
"Senator Colombo, and those of you who outside the Demes who still hold some sympathy for the White, I would very much like to hear your views on the future direction the White Demes should take when it finds itself restored to a position of power {{faction bonus}}.

More taxes are always useful, and as the financial situation looks now an improvement to taxation seems difficult to argue against. But it is likely the economic situation for the Imperium will be worse while other Demes rule, and when the White Demes returns to power it will likely be because our proposals to strengthen the economy have already gained support. A 5% more in direct taxes
would still be very helpful in that situation, but would be less necessary.

Improving the administrations procedures for incorporating newly conquered lands {{-5% coring cost}}, or educating our diplomats to better be able to persuade our vassal states to join the Imperium directly {{-10% diplomatic annexation cost}}, could both be extremely useful, but highly circumstantial. The value of each depends much on which strategies our Emperor deems fit to pursue, though of course they could also help guide his strategies.

The synergies with our imperial legacy and earlier administrative techniques {{national and administrative ideas, both giving a reduction to coring costs}} seems to me making focusing on direct incorporation more useful {{-5%coring costs}}. Focusing on our vassals would seem to further the interests of the Blue Demes, which might help rebuild some burned bridges, while a focus on direct annexation favours the administration more directly. {{One saves Dip points, the other saves Adm.}}

Your insights would be most welcome, my fellow senators."
 
Last edited:

Ponce_The_Great

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Petrus Taurinus (Reds)

*Looking rather pale and uneasy at the current situation and the divide in the Reds, Petrus takes a gulp of wine and rises*

Oh well...I...I Petrus Taurinus support the amendment of Senator Alexios Seraphis for the economic reforms.
 
Last edited:

CzokletMuss

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Petrus Taurinus (Reds)

*Looking rather pale and uneasy at the current situation and the divide in the Reds, Petrus takes a gulp of wine and rises*

Oh well...I...I support the amendment of Senator Seraphas for the economic reforms.
{{ Serpent's character is Alexios Serapis. Also:

SUPPORTING AMENDMENTS & POLICIES
Every Senator may support an amendment. To support an amendment you have to:
  • Use the following template:
    Code:
    [b][size=4]House <NAME> supports the amendment of Senator <NAME>[b][/size]
  • Write why you support the amendment .
  • Use the „Agree” button in bottom right corner of the post which contains the amendment you are supporting – this will allow everyone to see exactly how many Senators support the amendment.
  • You may support as many amendments as you want.

}}
 
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TheAnguishedOne

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{{I'd recommend the -5% coring cost as a bonus for the White Demes.}}
 
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Ponce_The_Great

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{{sorry hopefully fixed}}
 

ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
Senator Serapis, I have to commend you for working on rebuilding the burned bridges with the Blue Demes, however you said that while other Demes than the White are in power, the economy would be worse- let me remind you that for many years, until recently, the White Demes were in power. The economic situation got bad, if I'm not wrong, with the Whites in power.
 

luciusmalfoy012

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Senator Christoforo Colombo (White Demes):

Aye, we few Whites must also consider our own path. I am of two minds. Should the Economic reforms be passed {economic ideas}, I would support a reform within the Demes to reflect that focus on the Economy.

However, should the perfidious Blues get their way, I think it would be in our best interests to make sure that the land gained from wars can be more easily integrated.

In response to Senator Salamis:

Yes, during the White tenure, our finances have suffered. But why? It's not a hard question to answer. Most of our deficit is as a result of having to borrow enormous amounts of money from the perfidious Jews in order to rebuild our Navy twice, for no good reason. The naval leadership is at primary fault for having the hubris to venture beyond the Pillars and to confront the Aztecs in their home waters. I do have to commend our new naval commander for taking the strategy of waiting for the Aztecs to split their forces. Such improvements in doctrine are free of charge, and are more important than any naval reform.

But what if the Whites did not get their way? Our administrative reforms have made hiring mercenaries cheaper, and decreased the amount of interest we pay, while improving the production of our farms and cities. Not to mention that we, the Whites, have been administering as best we can to the finances. We would be far further in debt, and have far higher inflation and interest if we had not listened to the White's leadership.

The financial situation as is, is due entirely to the excessive demands made by the military and navy. To blame us for your excesses, Salamis, is truly hypocritical.


{Basically, I think the tax increase synergizes well with the Economic ideas, but coring cost works with admin ideas. Since we're in a financial hole, I think money should take precedent, but not if the only modifier we get is the 5%, as opposed to all the bonuses that Economic would add. So If Economic passes: 5% Tax If Maritime Passes: Coring Cost}
 

ThetrueColt

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{{Vassals aren't that big, Tax gain would be marginal, Coring cost reduction would be best. Sorry, no in character post, I have little time right now. :p}}
 
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Attalus

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{{ I think all Blues agree with the +1 colonist ? It's the obvious choice really. }}
 
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Zqrfmb

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{{ I think all Blues agree with the +1 colonist ? It's the obvious choice really. }}
{{one colonist is good, to be sure, there is land in Africa to be taken with trade that can be steered upwards, but 25% privateer efficiency is not at all negligible when we can raid seville and, potentially soon, the English Channel. }}
 

varetta

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Senator Aetius Scipion (Red demes):

I also support senator Cortez amendment on reference to Aquitaine.

{{I guess we will go with the less attrition change

CzokletMuss, I am wishing to read the bios of other senators :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D}}
 

CzokletMuss

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Michael Komnenos, President of the Senate:

Komnenos continues to write down amendments proposed by the Senators.

***
Here's what we have:
SENATUS CONSULTA
(1) Reform of the Imperial Navy and new legislation (Third Idea Group)
(2) Special powers for the Megas Droungarios (National Focus)

RESOLUTIONS
(3) Expedition – Africa, Hindustan Eastern Seas (within colonial range)
No amendment was proposed.
(4) Diplomatic mission – Ceylon (attempt to vassalize)
No amendment was proposed.
(5) Terms of peace – Aquitaine (annexation)
I believe the mad "emperor" should be made to submit to three conditions:
First: The mad king disband his pathetic 'empire' that means literally nothing, as he has no authority over the remaining german states. Permanantly. All imperial regalia will given over and melted down. I would guess this would be enforced on him even if this amendment failed, but it does not hurt to repeat.
Second: The mad king submit to the true emperor's mercy, whatever it may be, and the nobility of Aquitaine pay tribute to Imperium Romanum as a vassal state until such a time that it can be annexed without the threat of pisan raiding and chaos.
Third: The mad king pay for his insolence by forefeiting some of Aquitaine's territories up front, a more managable amount than the entire kingdom, preferably a stretch of land that gives the imperium a land connection to the ocean beyond the Mare Nostrum, to support raiding of Xenoi trade fleets and keep a watchful eye on the brittanic provinces.[/I]
POLICIES

This means that if the voting began now, the Senate would vote on:
  • bills of His Imperial Majesty
  • amendment of senator Leon Cortez
  • policy proposed by senator Leon Cortez

As a reminder:
PROPOSING AMENDMENTS
Every Senator who is a member of a Demes may propose an amendment. To propose an amendment you have to:
  • Use the following template:
    Code:
    [size=5]AMENDMENT OF SENATOR <NAME>[b][/size]
  • Write what bill you want to amend (for example senatus consultum concerning reform of the Navy).
  • Write how you want to amend the bill (for example instead of reform of the Navy you propose reform of XYZ).
  • Write why you want to amend the bill.
  • Remember that your amendment is just a motion which has to be supported by 5 other Senators to be put to a vote by the Senate.

PROPOSING POLICIES
All rules concerning proposing amendments apply accordingly.

SUPPORTING AMENDMENTS & POLICIES
Every Senator may support an amendment. To support an amendment you have to:
  • Use the following template:
    Code:
    [b][size=4]House <NAME> supports the amendment of Senator <NAME>[b][/size]
  • Write why you support the amendment .
  • Use the „Agree” button in bottom right corner of the post which contains the amendment you are supporting – this will allow everyone to see exactly how many Senators support the amendment.
  • You may support as many amendments as you want.
 
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ParrotGuy

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CzokletMuss, I am wishing to read the bios of other senators :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D}}
{{Yeah, it could be great, I also wrote important stuff about what's going on in house Salamis in the bio, and it can be great to know the other Senator's stories :)}}
 
Last edited:

CzokletMuss

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{{ Don't worry, I'll do this when I have time.

EDIT: If anyone wants to support motion to vote on Economic Ideas this is the time - voting starts in 45 minutes and if by then there are less than 5 Senators who support the amendment, the Senate won't vote on it.}}
 
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TheAnguishedOne

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{{ Don't worry, I'll do this when I have time. }}
{{How goes fixing the links on the first page? Can they even be fixed since the transition to the new forum?}}
 

CzokletMuss

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{{How goes fixing the links on the first page? Can they even be fixed since the transition to the new forum?}}
{{No, I would have to go through every page of this thread and fix them manually and I had better things to do during the last week or so. I'll fix them eventually. }}
 

ParrotGuy

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{{Hm, don't want to spoil the celebration of the Blues, but... Senator Colombo supports the amendament but didn't vote agree. So, luciusmalfoy, you may want to wake up ;)}}