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TheAnguishedOne

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Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Gentlemen, please. There has been enough fighting between the Blue Demes for one Session. Senator Melissenos, if you do not wish to support naval reforms, then I will understand. I wish for us to stand together, but I will not punish those who think differently. My father was a Blue Deme since the creation of the Factions, but he still sided with the Red Demes on certain issues. If we punished those who sided against their Faction on a single matter, then the Factions would be empty. I have explained to members of the Reds and Whites the perks of working with the Blue Demes now, and I am certain all of my fellow Blue Demes know my thoughts by now.
 
Last edited:

ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
An unaffiliated Senator is independent from factionalism, however a member of a demes has some ties to his deme, don't you agree? And while there is no leader of our demes, the support of every Blue Senator for Maritime reforms made it unnecessary- it's a consensus.
I would also like you to know that I have no leadership aspirations and that I already expressed my support for Senator Arrius' candidacy. I do not know what caused you to accuse me such ugly accusations, perhaps the fact that I am guilty of being one of the most... talkative Senators, but I can tell you this- I will not forget this lie.
It is a shame, really- the previous Senator of house Melissenos was a great ally of my father, and our two houses, as the two biggest landholders in Thema Athens, still have a great cooperation. It will be a shame if these ties are weakened.
 

varetta

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
Senator Scipion, I would ask you to wait.
In the current state of the Senate, it seems that some of the Red Demes support a Maritime reform in addition of giving power to the Megas Domestikos, and some, in their blind hate of anything blue, completely refuse to vote for a Maritime reform and instead wish an Economic reform.
In this situation, the Senate is completly split into two halves. We cannot reach Senatus Consultom.
As it seems to me like we cannot make a deal with the white demes and their supporters, I will propose this to the members of the Red Demes, if my fellow Blue Senators agree-
If you vote for Maritimes reform today, and the reform passes, the members of the Blue Demes, or their successors, shall vote for the single reform which the Red Demes choses- it can be this Economic reform, or a military one- we will vote for whatever reform the Red Demes agrees upon. In addition, and this part is negotiateable, the Reds will vote with us for giving more power to Megas Drougarios to ensure that the Naval reforms will be effective. You saw how many interesting ideas Espinosa proposes, and I believe that we should give this man a chance in order to ensure that the Navy is completely prepared to stand side by side with the army and crash the Xenoi. In exchange, we will vote for whatever focus you choose in the next session in which reforms will be discussed, such as today. This way, in the next few years Megas Droungarios and the Navy will have a great power to reform the fleet with the greatest effect, but in the next time the Red Demes will have a complete control of the Senate and will easily pass whichever reform they support, as well as give power to any part of the Imperium they choose- the navy, the administration, or, as a more obvious and if I may add reasonable choice, the Army. Of course, for this grand deal we will need the support of the more stubborn Senators of the Red Demes- but I assure you, Senators Wedrovander and Taurinos- the navy is not the army's enemy, the navy is the army's friend. Remember this- if our fleets will be destroyed by the Xenoi each time, then the transportation fleets will also be unable to work, with the Xenoi hunting down every Romanoi ship in Mare Nostrum in such a situation, and so the army will have to walk. Which is disastrous, as it will not allow our legions to reach different corners of the Imperium in which they are needed in time, and will also cause a great attrition.

{{I'm glad we support the Navy this time, my Senator can finally say arguments which actually make a lot of sense rp-wise , unlike Exploration :p}}

Senator Aetius Scipion (red demes):

Senator Salamis,

As you well know, my faction is currently divided on the subject. They have right concerns about the capacity of the fleet for increase our income from taxes and this way solve our current economic problems. I cannot assure you the support of my faction, at least not of all of them, but if you make a public announcement of your offer it will probably easy the things with some of my fellow members.

About the deal you propose, I cannot neglect that I feel attracted with it and your point is logic. Perhaps it is possible that I forget my amendment if you can give guarantees from your faction of the offer. This will probably turn some more red senators to our field.

I wait for your faction public statement.


Dear senators,

It probably has reached your ears the deal that senator Salamis has proposed us on current and future reforms of the state. They offer, in exchange of our current support, future support for the reform of the Army that we consider necessary and support for higher attention in the Army.

You know, because we have strongly discuss this topic during the last hours, the position of the member of our demes. We are divided and I am sorry to say this but I think that, if we do not reach an agreement, we will block the senate again like the last time and will cover of embarrassing the institution and our demes.

Remember, the own Emperor, the emissary of God on earth, has suggested this reform. If there is no agreement, the Emperor will reform the navy independently of what we think and we will lose our face to him.

So I ask you, I beg you, to support this reform not just in the benefit of the Empire and the fleet, but for the benefit of our factions that are the interest of the Empire and the all truth Romans.

We have a gold opportunity. We can assure ourselves domination in the Senate the next time we meet without cost because this time was not our moment and we were not going to get our reforms whatever happens today here.

Thanks senators. I hope this letter convince you and allow us to reach agreement and unity in our faction.

Saint Markos protects you and the Lord bless you.
 
Last edited:

Leandor

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Senator Diaver Kastelos (Blue Demes)

"What a ridiculous circus this hall has become. We just ended a war with xenoi, and you still don't understand how important is the role of a powerful navy? Don't you see how our territories are divided by the Mediterraneum, as well as our forces? In the next war, if we support these "economical" or "military" reforms, our themas will have to take a terrible decision: to protect the limes of Italy and Illyria, leaving the reconquered Carthage alone against the xenoi hordes or viceversa. WE. NEED. THE NAVAL. LOGISTICS. "

"Our armies, strong as none in this earth, will not be able to react without an strong navy to hold its back. What could happen if, in desperate times, all our forces are present protecting our limes? The xenoi, using their control over the seas (that we, if don't support the Megas Droungarios's ideas, will give them as a gift) will be able to land one of its armies of doom at the same walls of the city of Constantine. The Theodosian Walls will not be enough to protect our capital, and worse, the Empire itself will be divided in two, leaving Greece, Illyria, and Italy separated from Anatolia, Siria, Aegyptus and Africa."

"We need to "fix" our economy, you say. Well, without a navy there will be no economy, nor Imperium, to save."

"Senator Salamis, we must form a common front against these fools controlled by the narrowness of the Whites. Every senator, at least the ones with brains, should join us. And I'm not talking about the blues, of course. The greatest enemy of Rome is not the barbarians... The same Romans are."

"Homo homini lupus est. The man is man's wolf".
 
Last edited:

KingJerkera

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Senator Maximos Wedrovander (Red Demes):

"I stand again at this time to speak frankly. Your concept of time is not in tune with reality. I could understand this if money wasn't something that the blue demes where supposed to be good at. However it is and you still not see that the doom that is imminent in your thoughts will be if we ignore what will happen within a years time? We are not merely short on funds, we are not merely late on some payments, and most certainly we "could consolidate loans and pay them off in a decade". No, we do not have that time any more. The loans that we have used at the shocking rate we have are slowing but surely drying up all other funds to pay for those loans. For this year alone we owe 3 loans of nearly 500 ducats each and more are to come. We just don't have the ability to pay any more. This is why I will continue to stand with Salamis on this issue and why I ask you to reconsider harsh words this day. Yes there are opportunities and we can only approach them if we have the funds to do so.

On that note I want you to know that your propositions are not bad. In fact I have changed my mind on the eventually of needing them. But now is not the time. We need to rest and recuperate."
 

McGrey

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Senator Titos Livios Melissenos

*Titos sighns long. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. This time it looks, like he's on the losing side. Not everything is lost of course, but chances towards victory were slim now. Antiochos had called and Titos had not much to show for. He sinks a bit more in his seat and asks no one in particular.*

And how will ships be paid for? Sailors, soldiers and craftsmen? Provisions, supplies and ammunition? More loans? More and more? And if no one will lend more money to the empire, what then? If mercenaries leave our service, revolt or – worse – lend their service to Xenoi, Pisans or Hordes? When ships root in harbors and man refuse to work? This empire is founded on ancient tradition and gods grace, but it needs – inter alia – money to work.
 

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Senator Diaver Kastelos (Blue Demes)

"What a ridiculous circus this hall has become. We just ended a war with xenoi, and you still don't understand how important is the role of a powerful navy? Don't you see how our territories are divided by the Mediterraneum, as well as our forces? In the next war, if we support these "economical" or "military" reforms, our themas as will have to take a terrible choice: to protect the limes of Italy and Illyria, leaving the reconquered Carthage alone against the xenoi hordes. WE. NEED. THE NAVAL. LOGISTICS. "

"Our armies, strong as none in this earth, will not be able to react without an strong navy to hold its back. What could happen if, in desperate times, all our forces are present protecting our limes? The xenoi, using their control over the seas (that we, if don't support the Megas Droungarios's ideas, will give them as a gift) will be able to land one of its armies of doom at the same walls of the city of Constantine. The Theodosian Walls will not be enough to protect our capital, and worse, the Empire itself will be divided in two, leaving Greece, Illyria, and Italy separated from Anatolia, Siria, Aegyptus and Africa."

"We need to "fix" our economy, you say. Well, without a navy there will be no economy, nor Imperium, to save."

"Senator Salamis, we must form a common front against these fools controlled by the narrowness of the Whites. Every senator, at least the ones with brains, should join us. And I'm not talking about the blues, of course. The greatest enemy of Rome is not the barbarians... The same Romans are."

"Homo homini lupus est. The man is man's wolf"
*Alexios sighs in exasperation of the Kastelos outburst.*
"Please do not shout in the Magnaura. Such a lack of decorum dishonours us all, not least yourself and your fellow unrepentant blues."

Twice have the Xenoi destroyed the Imperial fleet. Never have they taken Constantinopolis. The Imperium will live on with or without the fleet, because the Xenoi and the power of our legions have proven you wrong."

Senator Maximos Wedrovander (Red Demes):

"I stand again at this time to speak frankly. Your concept of time is not in tune with reality. I could understand this if money wasn't something that the blue demes where supposed to be good at. However it is and you still not see that the doom that is imminent in your thoughts will be if we ignore what will happen within a years time? We are not merely short on funds, we are not merely late on some payments, and most certainly we "could consolidate loans and pay them off in a decade". No, we do not have that time any more. The loans that we have used at the shocking rate we have are slowing but surely drying up all other funds to pay for those loans. For this year alone we owe 3 loans of nearly 500 ducats each and more are to come. We just don't have the ability to pay any more. This is why I will continue to stand with Salamis on this issue and why I ask you to reconsider harsh words this day. Yes there are opportunities and we can only approach them if we have the funds to do so.

On that note I want you to know that your propositions are not bad. In fact I have changed my mind on the eventually of needing them. But now is not the time. We need to rest and recuperate."
"You speak the truth, the state of the economy is every bit as terrible as you say. But I do not understand your conclusion. Would you vote for a maritime reform now in exchange for a military reform later? Where would that leave the Economy? Can we wait another 40, 60, 80 years? Noble Senator, surely you know we can not. That would ruin us utterly and beyond repair. Please." *He rubs his temples, trying to fight migraine and exhaustion.*
Please reconsider. The Red and the White can yet reach an agreement to save the imperium, I am willing to offer concessions. But the Economy can not wait."

 
Last edited:

ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
*Santor Antiochos sat for a while, thinking. It seems like his diplomatic attitude, taught to him by his father Anastasios, has fallen and given place for emotions like the feeling of betrayal he felt against Senator Melissenos, whom he has known for many years, and the feeling of anger towards the fanatic Whites led by Senator Serapis. His father would have been disappointed- he has never given in to emotions like this. Antiochos then stands up to speak, determined to fix his mistakes and try to keep the influence of his house from falling because of them.*
Senator Arrius, it is clear that you are by far the best leader for our demes- you managed to keep us from falling apart because of feuds between different houses. Your'e also a great diplomat, I can tell you that from coming from a house in which some of the greatest diplomats of the Imperium's history were born, and act as a neutral negotiator. For this, I salute you.
I would also like to apologize to Senator Melissenos for calling him a traitor- this was tasteless, and I am sorry for this outbrust. To open a new page in our relations, I would ask you to retract your statement about me acting as a leader, while I clearly support Senator Arrius.
Now, I would like to ask the Blue Demes members to express their opinions on the deal I tried to broker with Senator Scipion of the Red Demes-
He and others of his demes will vote today for both Maritime reforms and giving power to Megas drougarios, and in exchange we will promise that in the next session in which the Senate will discuss reforms, the Blue Demes members or their successors will vote for whichever reform the Red Demes as a faction choses to promote and whomever the Red Demes choses to give power to (probably the army).
What do you think, my fellows? I would like to warn that perhaps not all members of his demes will with him in this deal, but it will allow us to give power to Megas Drougarios. The other option is to keep ourselves free of promises about the future and just compromise with the Reds and allow them to give more power to Megas Domestikos instead. Or perhanps just vote to give more power to Megas Drougarios and see if we can get the majority even if they vote for this particular amendament. Indeed, as some Red clearly support Maritime reforms and some seem like they will never support it I begin to think that we should just not make any deal.
 
Last edited:

McGrey

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Senator Titos Livios Melissenos (The Blues)

*Titos looks toward Antiochos and nods.*

I will do this and your support shows more diplomacy than I implied. More so that your support for senator Arrius is good since he seams to be the best candidate.
 

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Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Senator Salamis, thank you for your kind words. I will remember those who understood my efforts, and I will implore my son do the same. As for the deal with the Red Demes, I see no issue with it because it is the same deal nearly all of the Blue Demes have been offering since the beginning of the Session. However... it is clear that the Augustus sees the benefits of a powerful navy. If we Senators do not reach a majority, he will act on his beliefs.

Red Demes, I ask for your cooperation. If you do not work with the Blue Demes now, we will have no reason to support your efforts in the future. There are obviously members of the Red Demes who still support economic reforms. I hope enough of you change your mind and side with my fellow Faction members, or there will be no need to keep our word.

Do not misunderstand; a few renegade Red Demes can be forgiven... but if we fail to reach the majority because so many continued to support their own needs instead of what is best for the Imperium, I will not forget such an insult.
 

ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
Senator Serapis, we have already said all arguments regarding this, however I will just say this- how can you dare to say that the Imperium can live on without the navy and disrespect the navy in such a way?
Without transportation, our soldiers will be stuck in their own corners of the Imperium, and without a strong warship fleet the Xenoi will freely roam in the Mare Nostrum and prevent us from transporting a single soldier by the way of sea. The recent victory against the Xenoi was a Pyrrhic victory- we won a few lands but at a great cost. This cost could have been much smaller with a strong navy, and our gains much bigger. And this Pyrrhic victory was when the Xenoi were distracted by many slave rebelions and trouble in the far west- without the navy, and Imperium cannot win against a full powered Xenoi.
 

Leandor

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Now, I would like to ask the Blue Demes members to express their opinions on the deal I tried to broker with Senator Scipion of the Red Demes-
He and others of his demes will vote today for both Maritime reforms and giving power to Megas drougarios, and in exchange we will promise that in the next session in which the Senate will discuss reforms, the Blue Demes members or their successors will vote for whichever reform the Red Demes as a faction choses to promote and whomever the Red Demes choses to give power to (probably the army).
What do you think, my fellows? I would like to warn that perhaps not all members of his demes will with him in this deal, but it will allow us to give power to Megas Drougarios. The other option is to keep ourselves free of promises about the future and just compromise with the Reds and allow them to give more power to Megas Domestikos instead. Or perhanps just vote to give more power to Megas Drougarios and see if we can get the majority even if they vote for this particular amendament. Indeed, as some Red clearly support Maritime reforms and some seem like they will never support it I begin to think that we should just not make any deal.
Senator Diaver Kastelos (Blue Demes)

"Do I have to remember us that our parents and grandparents did some kind of deal with the reds in the past? Have we seen some kind of benefit from it? I cannot trust ,at all, in their honor. But, if it is necessary to get support for the navy, I would be willing to take the risk. Maybe."
 

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Senator Alexandros Raoul

Although it pains me, I have to agree with Kastelos. Reds are treacherous and could easily threaten our motion.
Also as a gesture of good faith, I announce that I forgive Kastelos for his previous insults. In turn I support senator Arrius' candidacy and I ask him to do the same to not provoke tensions inside our Demes.
 

CzokletMuss

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Michael Komnenos, President of the Senate:

Michael Komnenos gives a sign to the eagle-bearer who hits the floor of Magnaura several times with the iron ending of the Fasces.

- Order, noble Senators, order! I admire your, hmm, enthusiasm but here in the Great Hall we have to follow certain procedures - Michael Komnenos takes a quill pen, dips it in ink and starts to write down something on vellum



***

All right, so far the following amendments were proposed:

SENATUS CONSULTA
(1) Reform of the Imperial Navy and new legislation (Third Idea Group)
  • Amendment of senator Alexios Serapis (Economic Ideas) – supported by 2/5 Senators
(2) Special powers for the Megas Droungarios (National Focus)
  • Amendment of senator Aetius Scipion (Military Focus) – supported by 0/5 Senators
POLICIES
No policy was proposed.

This means that if the voting began now, the Senate would vote only on bill of His Imperial Majesty since not a single amendment gained enough support (5 Senators) to be put to a vote.
 
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ThetrueColt

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Senator Junius Pylaeus (unaffiliated)

After following the debate silently for a while, Junius speaks out once more:

"What is more important to the Imperium? Is it the ability for each and every Roman to buy a loaf of bread and other necessities of the daily life or is it the glorious Imperial Navy, which, albeit lost twice completely, is one of the fundamental pillars on which the defense of the Imperium rests?


If we don't invest everything in the navy, we will be no match for the Xenoi at sea. They will freely roam throughout the Mare Nostrum and pillage and murder just as horribly as we have all come to know. Even so, we survived the loss of the navy twice. Yet we never had to face the despair of our own people. I ask all of you, my fellow aristoi, how do you answer this question truthfully and with no remorse?"

{{Ah yes, could there maybe be any red senator who would like to promote a certain policy?}}
 
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CzokletMuss

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Alexios Serapis of the White Demes
Your initial argument is valid, but exaggerated. The Imperium is clearly not lagging behind the times on Administrative ability {{tech.}}, and an early priority on the administration will result in more efficient acquisition of administrative skill in the future." {{Too much meta?}}
{{Almost too much meta :)
Senator Alexandros Raoul
[/spoiler]
Please remember to start every post in-character with your Senator's name AND Faction/unaffiliated status accordingly.}}
 

Leandor

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Senator Alexandros Raoul

Although it pains me, I have to agree with Kastelos. Reds are treacherous and could easily threaten our motion.
Also as a gesture of good faith, I announce that I forgive Kastelos for his previous insults. In turn I support senator Arrius' candidacy and I ask him to do the same to not provoke tensions inside our Demes.
Senator Diaver Kastelos

"To finally end this internal discussion... you openly recognize that those dark rumors of my family's business are nothing more than mere construction of a bored mind of a woman?"

Diaver awaits for an answer from Raoul with a half smile. Maybe he'll not be leader of the faction, but he wants to hear that open declaration.
 
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TheAnguishedOne

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Senator Marcus Arrius (the Blues):

Well said, President of the Senate. The amendments do not have enough support to be put up to vote as of now. There is reason for this... As Senators, we are here to advise the Augustus in hopes of guiding the Imperium. There are times we must convince him to see things in a new light, and times when we must guide our fellow Senators to understand why the Augustus is right.

In the past, the Senate has both succeeded and failed to change the path. Now, when I am and my allies try to bring us together and forget past disagreements, we must stay the course. The navy must be reformed. As such, Megas Droungarios must be trusted with more power. Can we all agree now that this is what is best for the Imperium?
 
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Serpent

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This means that if the voting began now, the Senate would vote only on bill of His Imperial Majesty since not a single amendment gained enough support (5 Senators) to be put to a vote.
{{How much time do we have? I don't think everyone is quite ready for a vote. I know I and several others have been extremely active, but there are many senators we have barely heard from.
I don't want to present any more motions or amendments to the senate, my senator already has enough to argue for, but someone definitely should.}}
 

ParrotGuy

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{{How much time do we have? I don't think everyone is quite ready for a vote. I know I and several others have been extremely active, but there are many senators we have barely heard from.
I don't want to present any more motions or amendments to the senate, my senator already has enough to argue for, but someone definitely should.}}
{{I made some calculations to match it to my timeline, and according to the announcement we still have one more day (plus 30 minutes) as the voting begins at 9:00 p.m. 4 May (Monday, WARSAW TIME=UTC+1) so it should be enough.}}
 
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