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    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

LordSolar

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Senator Marios Batavos(Red Demes)
*Having been silent for the entire debate Sentor Marios finally speaks up*

Having listened carefully to all arguments I have decided on what to vote. To me naval reform makes the most sense, our administration has other things to worry about like battling inflation. Reforming the navy will not only be an important step in securing naval dominance in the Mediterranean , it will also increase our trade revenue en increase our armies' mobility. It makes sense to give the Megas Droungarios special powers to allow him to speed up the process.

Regarding Ceylon: Bringing fellow Christians back into the fold is always a good thing, if it has strategic value it is even better. If the deluded rulers of Ceylon somehow refuse our offer I fully support using force of arms to free it's population.
 

Serpent

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{{You might want to add a change of National Focus as well, Serpent. Dip Focus without dip ideas would be a waste - I suggest Mil Focus to sway the reds.}}
{{I've made an offer to all the Reds during the recess, but haven't heard much from any of them. I know several Reds supported Economic reforms in the debates, so an agreement shoul be possible, but recently they have been more concerned with conversing amongst themselves. Others have been more open to negotiations. I would still be willing to negotiate with the Reds, if I have someone to negotiate with.

I agree with you but for now a military focus is a separate point of decision, open to negotiation.}}
 
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ParrotGuy

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{{I've made an offer to all the Reds during the recess, but haven't heard much from any of them. I know several Reds supported Economic reforms in the debates, so an agreement should be possible, but recently they have been more concerned by conversing amongst themselves. Others have been more open to negotiations. I would still be willing to negotiate with the Reds, if I have someone to negotiate with.}}
{{It seems like the reds are split into two groups: Senators Scipion, Este-Ravenna and Batavos support Maritime, while Taurinos and Wedrovander support Economy. I also proposed a deal to sway them to the blue side (we have cookies and delicacies from the east after all :p), but I don't think that any side will manage to reach an agreement with the whole Red Demes.}}
 
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CzokletMuss

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{{Yes, you may support amendments of every senator no matter which Demes he's member of. And yes, unafiliated may support every amendment - they can't propose them however.

I'm writing from my phone now so if there are more questions they will have to wait until I get back home. }}
 

ThetrueColt

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{{I've edited my previous post with the necessary formalities. Let's see if the two amendments will make it to the voting-boxes}}
 

Serpent

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Senator Alexios Serapis of the White Demes

Senator Titos Livios Melissenos

*Titos waited for a moment, before raising from his place. Every word of his statement needs to be right for him not to show all his cards quite yet.*

It is clear to me, that the idea of economic reforms – suggested as a compromise – has caught on with many senators in this hall. If it is the best option is a matter of debate and there are good points for and against it. But I'm of the opinion that this proposal should be made official due to it's appeal and it's value should stand the vote of the senate instead being merely a point for discussion. Therefor:


The House Melissenos supports the amendment of Senator Serapis
"This is just what the Imperium needs, my friend. Senators with the courage and wisdom to stand up for the needs of the Imperium, without concern for personal gain. You, sir, are a paragon more should try to emulate."

*He turns to address the Senate*

"Should our motion carry we will all, as true patriots, be better off for it. But if it should fail, I announce to you all, I will not let the Senate be humiliated again. The enemies of the Senate are hoping for us to fail to reach a greater majority, and if our Economic reforms do not gain sufficient support I am willing to throw my support behind a motion that can be expected to succeed. I will not stand against the interests of the Senate as an institution simply out of obstinacy. We must stand strong, and even the wrong decision might be better than no decision at all. So I urge you all, do not refrain from supporting our Economic reform simply because you fear that it might fail. Supporting it will not deadlock the Senate, and the right decision may yet pass with your help."


{{It seems like the reds are split into two groups: Senators Scipion, Este-Ravenna and Batavos support Maritime, while Taurinos and Wedrovander support Economy. I also proposed a deal to sway them to the blue side (we have cookies and delicacies from the east after all :p), but I don't think that any side will manage to reach an agreement with the whole Red Demes.}}
{{And there are other Reds who have said little. Just moments ago one of them raised an amendment of their own, with no previous open debate in the senate, so the issue seems wide open. You're right, no one can likely make an agreement with the whole Demes (a disadvantage of dealing with a big faction), but I'd be happy just to negotiate some more with a few of them.}}
 
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ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
Senator Serapis, if the success of the Senate is important to you, I urge you- please withdraw your amendament and allow the Emperor, god's regent on earth, and his noble and trusted servant Megas Drougarios Espinosa to fulfill their vision of a glorious navy.
In the current situation, it's appearent that your amendament will split the Senate's vote and we will fail, once again, to reach the majority needed for Senatus Consultum. The dynastoi will feast on our failure, and the Senate's prestige will be severely harmed, perhaps for a very long time. Why would the Emperor ask for advice from an institution which cannot give it?
 

Serpent

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Senator Alexios Serapis

Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
Senator Serapis, if the success of the Senate is important to you, I urge you- please withdraw your amendament and allow the Emperor, god's regent on earth, and his noble and trusted servant Megas Drougarios Espinosa to fulfill their vision of a glorious navy.
In the current situation, it's appearent that your amendament will split the Senate's vote and we will fail, once again, to reach the majority needed for Senatus Consultum. The dynastoi will feast on our failure, and the Senate's prestige will be severely harmed, perhaps for a very long time. Why would the Emperor ask for advice from an institution which cannot give it?
"Give it time, Senator Salamis. Perhaps then you will see that it would be wiser of you to withdraw your support for the Maritime reform. What use is the Senate if it can only approve what is suggested to it? The Emperor needs our advice, not our blind compliance."

Senator Junius Pyleaus (unaffiliated)
House Pylaeus supports the amendment of Senator Serapis

"The economy stands on the verge of collapse. If the Imperium is to prosper, the value of the basilikoi and the repayment of our debt need to be addressed first and foremost.

To any senator who deems it better to build a navy without having the necessary funds I can only say: This is madness! Please come to your senses!"
"Indeed, noble Senator Pylaeus. How can anyone disagree with such clearly obvious facts?

We now have support from both a Senator of the Blue Demes and one of the Unaffiliated. The White already back our motion, and surely some of the Red will follow. We can build a majority of this and demonstrate to all the independence of the Senate and its commitment to the Imperium above all selfish concerns."
 
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"This is just what the Imperium needs, my friend. Senators with the courage and wisdom to stand up for the needs of the Imperium, without concern for personal gain. You, sir, are a paragon more should try to emulate."
{{Of course, of course, no concern for personal gain at all, no sir! *laughs manically*}}
 

ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
*Antiochos looks at Alexios with a cold look before replying*
Very well, Senator Serapis. Just be warned- your reform, which would put so much weigh of different reforms on the administration that it may break, will cause the failure of the Senate.
The navy is of utmost importance, and house Salamis will not withdraw from its support to the Maritime reform. No, we will do everything we can to ensure its passing.

{{*House Salamis declares a war on house Serapis* :p I really enjoy all of these different houses feuding, and this one conflict can get even more interesting because of my plans for my next Senator. For now my favorites are Salamis vs Serapis, Kastelos vs Raoul and of course Colombo vs Moustekas.}}
 

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Senator Aetius Scipion (the reds):

Dear Red demes senators,

I have said before and I will say it once more. We must be united!!!

If the most of us support a economic reform, I will support it too but I think that these times claim for a reform of the navy. Not just because their incapacity for achieving success neither similar to those of the Legions but because it will help our interest in the future.

The whites are very scarce {{and half of them crazy}} and the unaligned are that, unaligned, and who knows how they will be the net session of the Senate. By other side, Bleu demes has demonstrated in all the previous sessions to be a strong group and I feel they will continue being this way.

Am I advocating for supporting them because they are a big group? Of course not!! Do I think that maritime reforms are the best one for the Empire while we could change as many things in the Army? Of course no!!!

But I am totally convinced that if we support maritime reforms now, together with exploration of the East as it seems will happen, we will have strong argument in the next session for pushing our reforms program, even if the merchants betray us and this is the reason why I will vote for such reform, except if it becomes clear that the rest of our demes prefer economic reforms and give power to those religious fanatics of Colombo.

In a different subject, I still think on the importance of the cavalry for our legions but it is also truth that recent experience has shown us the consequences of attrition for our forces so I am will to vote for such reforms in our demes if, as it seems, most of us support them

Thanks senators and think on my words when you vote.
Senator Giacomo Este-Ravenna of the Red Demes

Giacomo applauds the Drauganario's speech politely, but his heart is ill at ease with the man. He can see some sense in what he says- certainly, the old Dynatoi are not necessarily the best men for the job- send a rat to fight a rat, so to speak- but he seems... untrustworthy, and he does not like the implications of his words. The failure of the navy is, ultimately, a failure of good, blue-blooded romans to "dirty their hands" at sea, more a failure of the aristocrats than the advantage of the merchants... The man is cunning, and either a valuable resource for the Empire or else the man that will sell it o the Pisan-Jews and their ilk. Yet if it will pass the naval reforms, then he will not stand in the way. This time.
 

Serpent

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{{Of course, of course, no concern for personal gain at all, no sir! *laughs manically*}}
{{;)}}

Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
*Antiochos looks at Alexios with a cold look before replying*
Very well, Senator Serapis. Just be warned- your reform, which would put so much weigh of different reforms on the administration that it may break, will cause the failure of the Senate.
The navy is of utmost importance, and house Salamis will not withdraw from its support to the Maritime reform. No, we will do everything we can to ensure its passing.

{{*House Salamis declares a war on house Serapis* :p I really enjoy all of these different houses feuding, and this one conflict can get even more interesting because of my plans for my next Senator. For now my favorites are Salamis vs Serapis, Kastelos vs Raoul and of course Colombo vs Moustekas.}}
{{*Now? We weren't at war before? Then I shall recall the assassins, out of sportsmanship.* I suppose neither of us expected the other to fold yet, because of our rivalry if not the uncertain situation in the Senate. Perhaps it would be better if Senator Colombo was to negotiate with Antiochos?
It would be funny if your next senator is a old-school White while mine is a Blue. Then we will have to use our old enemy's arguments against our eternal rival :D.}}
 

Slavic Wise Man

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Senator Stephanos Vojimir (Blue Demes):
I wonder if Senator Serapis and his supporters were deaf or did simply not head the words of the Megas Drougarios. The naval reforms proposed before this Senate will help us achieve these economical goals that Senator Serapis' bloc strives for. Trade and exploration will bring income to the Imperium, while the military benefits of the navy are crucially important as well. Your solution, Economic reforms will split the Senate in two, and will offer benefits that Naval reforms already provide. Support for the navy and maritime reforms will as the old Romans said, "Duos parietes de eadem fidelia dealbare", whitewash two walls with the same paint, economic prosperity and naval strength.
 

Serpent

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Senator Giacomo Este-Ravenna of the Red Demes
Giacomo applauds the Drauganario's speech politely, but his heart is ill at ease with the man. He can see some sense in what he says- certainly, the old Dynatoi are not necessarily the best men for the job- send a rat to fight a rat, so to speak- but he seems... untrustworthy, and he does not like the implications of his words. The failure of the navy is, ultimately, a failure of good, blue-blooded romans to "dirty their hands" at sea, more a failure of the aristocrats than the advantage of the merchants... The man is cunning, and either a valuable resource for the Empire or else the man that will sell it o the Pisan-Jews and their ilk. Yet if it will pass the naval reforms, then he will not stand in the way. This time.
{{I wish my character knew about the situation in the Red Demes, then he would tell the Reds that the White demes is gaining in strength and will have considerably more influence the next session of the Senate.}}

Senator Stephanos Vojimir (Blue Demes):
I wonder if Senator Serapis and his supporters were deaf or did simply not head the words of the Megas Drougarios. The naval reforms proposed before this Senate will help us achieve these economical goals that Senator Serapis' bloc strives for. Trade and exploration will bring income to the Imperium, while the military benefits of the navy are crucially important as well. Your solution, Economic reforms will split the Senate in two, and will offer benefits that Naval reforms already provide. Support for the navy and maritime reforms will as the old Romans said, "Duos parietes de eadem fidelia dealbare", whitewash two walls with the same paint, economic prosperity and naval strength.
"The Megas Drougarios seems to be a man of great imagination. He is a wonderful storyteller, a vivid and colourful character, but I've heard little to support his vision. Is it surprising that the Megas Drougarios asks for more funds and powers for himself? No, of course not. It would be more surprising if he did not. What might surprise some is that economic reforms are supported across all boundaries of the Senate, even against factional self-interest. And that is because the need for reforms is so very great and urgent.

Maritime reforms, and the massive naval mobilisation the Megas Drougarios has proposed could never pay for themselves. Even he has admitted as much. No, they will only mire us deeper in debt."



 
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ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (Blue Demes):
Members of the Senate!
Do not be fooled by the false words of Senator Serapis- he is trying to fool you into thinking that he has a majority, but that is not the case.
Almost the whole Blue Demes, expect of treacherous Senator Melissenos, supports Maritime reforms- and that makes six of us, we also have a vast support in the Red Demes of true Reds who are working for the interests of the army and one of the unaffiliated has also expressed his support for Maritime reforms. The Senators who support the Navy are not only from the Blue Demes, as some try to make it look like, but also very un-blue Senators from the whole Senate.
That's because these Senators understand that without a strong Navy, the Xenoi will destroy our fleets in a future war and then prevent any transportation ship to transport soldiers around the Imperium. Thus, the armies will have to walk huge distances, suffering from a great attrition and taking tremendous amount of time to reach the areas of war.
 
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Senator Titos Livios Melissenos

Treacherous? Dear Salamis, I'm merely of the opinion that the vote is the best method to resolve this issue and that the best option – or better: what the majority judges as the best – will win. There is nothing treacherous about that. Or do you simply fear, that you might lose a place in power due to fair competition of ideas? Do you think the blues have to suppress alternatives because their arguments are not enough? That doesn't present you as very convinced of the naval reformation either, my dear...
 

Undead Martyr

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{{I wish my character knew about the situation in the Red Demes, then he would tell the Reds that the White demes is gaining in strength and will have considerably more influence the next session of the Senate.}}



"The Megas Drougarios seems to be a man of great imagination. He is a wonderful storyteller, a vivid and colourful character, but I've heard little to support his vision. Is it surprising that the Megas Drougarios asks for more funds and powers for himself? No, of course not. It would be more surprising if he did not. What might surprise some is that economic reforms are supported across all boundaries of the Senate, even against factional self-interest. And that is because the need for reforms is so very great and urgent.

Maritime reforms, and the massive naval mobilisation the Megas Drougarios has proposed could never pay for themselves. Even he has admitted as much. No, they will only mire us deeper in debt."


Senator Giacomo of the Red Demes

"Better that we pay in silver than blood. Economic reforms would not yield returns immediately. The empire is still recovering from previous administrative reforms. Further reforms would overtax us. On fop of this, I will note that the naval reforms are supporfed by many outside of the Blue Demes, including the Emperor himself. Economic reforms, such as they are, would further benefit the White Demes. It is disingenuous of you to claim economic reforms are purely for the interest of Rome while naval reforms are petty factionalism."
 

ParrotGuy

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Senator Antiochos Salamis (blue demes):
Ah, Senator Melissenos, can you then promise on your honor that you will vote for Maritime reforms? After all, it is clear that the support of Maritime ideas is supported by every Blue Senator, perhaps expect of you, and thus a collective decision of the Blue Demes. Supporting the opposing option is clearly a treachery against your demes then.
 

McGrey

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Senator Titos Livios Melissenos

Oh, I didn't know, that the senators of a demes had to vote unanimous on a policy determined by... by who exactly? I have the greatest respect for the Drougarios and even more so for our blessed Emperor, but we are assembled to give our counsel, that is the only reason why we were called and not to simply smile and nod. So who decides, what the senators of our demes votes on? You? I can't remember that we already voted you the leader of this demes although you already act like that. You want me to promise on my hornour? Are we now on the point of adolescents? Sure, sure, I promise, my lord and leader. Now, that you have control of the demese, what now? Becoming president of the senate?
 

Serpent

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Alexios Serapis of the White Demes

Senator Giacomo of the Red Demes

"Better that we pay in silver than blood. Economic reforms would not yield returns immediately. The empire is still recovering from previous administrative reforms. Further reforms would overtax us. On fop of this, I will note that the naval reforms are supporfed by many outside of the Blue Demes, including the Emperor himself. Economic reforms, such as they are, would further benefit the White Demes. It is disingenuous of you to claim economic reforms are purely for the interest of Rome while naval reforms are petty factionalism."
"The issue of economic reform was raised in the debate near the very beginning of the session by senators of the Red and Blue demes. They required no persuasion by me, and did certainly not act out of any established loyalty to the White Demes. Throughout the debate many senators of all affiliations have spoken warmly for Economic reforms, the White has simply taken up their call. And that is because Economic reform benefits us all.
Your initial argument is valid, but exaggerated. The Imperium is clearly not lagging behind the times on Administrative ability {{tech.}}, and an early priority on the administration will result in more efficient acquisition of administrative skill in the future."
{{Too much meta?}}
 
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