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KingJerkera

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Admittedly many characters and situations that would've been available for intellectuals as we know them here are not available in this timeline. However many of the pressures that this world faces are similar. Civilization being bested by Barbarian hordes, oppressive governments looking to squeeze every last drop of blood in order to fight for new territory, a church that is widespread and powerful that can't seem to stop infidels controlling large portions of territory that once belonged to them, and small huddled nations waiting for doom. Admittedly there isn't quite as much of a corrupted church yet but that should eventually happen and then just add time, ambition, and money and you have the same thing as the renaissance that we know.
 

eliaspays

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Westernize? Off the xenoi? Heresy!
 

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One question, should we send you now our new senators or not yet?

PS: I have discovered that there is going to be a new expansion thanks to this AAR and it looks amazing. I really love the parliament, the new titles and in general all the new dynamics...and wishing to see how you would use them in this AAR. It only could improve now if we knew something of Victoria 3 :rolleyes:
 

Undead Martyr

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In alternative history genre there is something called "point of divergence" - that is, the point in which the history became alternative to what really happened. The further into the past such POD lies, the bigger the changes are. It's easy to understand if you compare it to, say, your first school or city in which you lived as a kid - would your life be the same if you went to a different school or lived in a different city? The answer is obviously no, it would be completely different in many ways, some more subtle than others.

And when the POD is hundreds of years into the past (counting from current year 1500 A.D.) the changes have to be proportionally greater. Dozens of generations lived and died differently, millions of people who lived in our timeline were never born and events like Great Dying, Sunset Invasion and others occured which fundamentally altered the history. So nope, there is no chance that the unique combination of factors which allowed for instance Copernicus to do what he did in our timeline may arise in "Imperium Sine Fine". This is madness indeed ;)
That's true, yes, but that begs the question of how much is determined by individuals and how much
by broader social trends. Liberalism, for instance, was likely inevitable in some form or another- if you get industrialization and/or a burgeoning merchant class they are going to be agitating for a voice in the political system. And the kings helped this by essentially allying with the cities to crush the feudal lords. Republicanism on some form is also going to stick around with any PoD after the classical era- between Venice, Florence, the Netherlands, etc there are living oligarchic repblics and the Roman tradition to stand on.

England is one case of the push and pull between merchant, lord, and monarch. The PLC is another. But unlike England they were surrounded by Prussia, Sweden, Austria, the Ottomans, and Russia... There's a reason Poland is called the France of the east.
Germany had the problem of the Habsburgs, just strong enough to kick down Saxony and the Protestants, not strong enough to deter France and the Ottomans. Seriously f*** the Habsburg's, bloody inbred reactionaries thought they were CK2 players.

That said without New World colonization on the Anglican (and opposed to Hispanic) models and exposure to the much more egalitarian Iroquois/Haudenosothers) (among others) and George IIIs hamfistedness among others I don't think you will get the American brand of it.

Some sort of French/Russian revolution was likely also likely to happen in the autocratic states- while it was something of a perfect storm sheer chance suggests once you've opened the liberal genie all you need is a war, a famine, and an incompetent/indecisive monarch for it to explode... Or you could have gotten more Prussian/Sardinian style nationalist liberalism,attempting to harness the agitation for territorial gain (though Napoleons role here cannot easi ly be overstated, I think some sort of "Germany" and "Italy" are likely to emerge somehow, though they could be radically different e.g. a Lombard kingdom of Italy sans Venice and Naples/Umbria or a unified HRE kingdom including Switzerland and the Lowlands...)

In the context of This Is madness,, you are somewhat justifed- there are no real "nations" here in Europe though China counts. With a lingering universalist empire based around religion (more like the Ottomans, Safavids, and Mughals to an extent; also China if you factor in ethnicity/culture) regional "nationalisms" will be suppressed some but I think centrifugal tendencies will still make it pop up..

Historically a lot of nationalisms were born in reaction to empires fighting over them/creating buffer States, e.g. the Netherlands as reaction to Habsburg tyranny, Ukraine contra Russia and the PLC, Finland between Sweden and Russia etc. So Italy for example might well cause trouble late game if and when the Aztecs are weakened, based around some regional identity. Egypt also around the Copts. The rest of Europe will be wierd demographically given the rather ahistorical (excepting the treatment given the native Americans...) mass extinction and resettlement... Total extermination really wasn't overly practical before the modern era though population transfers to create local cadres of hired goons was used a lot.

Tis a fascinating subject.
 
Last edited:

Attalus

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Well I don't think we'll see all these appear for the time being. The Emperor is still all-powerful and the Empire is surrounded by mortal enemies.
Political thought, liberalism, freedom would only emerge in more stable times I think when one does not fear for his life every day :p (although I know some works emerged in unstable times but let us be honest, these authors did not have to fear Xenoi or Mongols craving their hearts out of their body ; or maybe someone could write something akin to the Leviathan of Hobbes, I think the emperor would like it and we have the riight context for it )

However if the threat one day is pushed back with Europa reclaimed and an effective limes established near the Hordes then maybe intelletctuals will begin to doubt the system and think differently.
 

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Well I don't think we'll see all these appear for the time being. The Emperor is still all-powerful and the Empire is surrounded by mortal enemies.
Political thought, liberalism, freedom would only emerge in more stable times I think when one does not fear for his life every day :p (although I know some works emerged in unstable times but let us be honest, these authors did not have to fear Xenoi or Mongols craving their hearts out of their body ; or maybe someone could write something akin to the Leviathan of Hobbes, I think the emperor would like it and we have the riight context for it )

However if the threat one day is pushed back with Europa reclaimed and an effective limes established . near the Hordes then maybe intelletctuals will begin to doubt the ,system and think differently.
Yep, we can't make things too easy now can we?
 

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I will leaf this screenshot of my current game here. Just as a motivation.



Or can St. Marcos' Empire accept such heresy?
 

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Or can St. Marcos' Empire accept such heresy?
Pisa delenda est.


(yes, this is screenshot from the incoming chapter)
 

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Glorious! The Imperium liberating Gallia from the xenoi!
 

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Oh poor Pisans between a rock and a hard place ....


Kidding, the heretics got what they deserve at least ! :p
 

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Serpent

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Well, the Emperor is something of a secret xenoiphile. Maybe not so secret after the next update.
 

luciusmalfoy012

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It's...

It's ALIVE?

PRAISE ST. MARKOS
 
  • 4
Reactions:

Zqrfmb

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Takes a long sip of coffee

Pisa delenda est.


(yes, this is screenshot from the incoming chapter)
Massive spit take!

So many implications from that screenshot, some of them blasphemous, or maybe it's a display bug, or maybe the Imperium and the Xenoi are tearing Pisa apart. Glad the AI is getting crutches after the Xenoi AI'd themselves into a peasant's war, the horde managed to get dogpiled by two major powers, and the Pisan traders apparently started importing coca leaves when they made THAT decision.
 

Attalus

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I don't want to sound pushy, but didn't you plan a special update before the next chapter Czoklet ?
 

CzokletMuss

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It's...

It's ALIVE?

PRAISE ST. MARKOS
This AAR may never die - it only rises again, harder and stronger!

Takes a long sip of coffee

Massive spit take!

So many implications from that screenshot, some of them blasphemous, or maybe it's a display bug, or maybe the Imperium and the Xenoi are tearing Pisa apart. Glad the AI is getting crutches after the Xenoi AI'd themselves into a peasant's war, the horde managed to get dogpiled by two major powers, and the Pisan traders apparently started importing coca leaves when they made THAT decision.

I don't want to sound pushy, but didn't you plan a special update before the next chapter Czoklet ?
Yup :) Which begs a question - which one would you prefer to get first guys: next chapter, dev diary or the "special update"?