This is how dynamic growth should be working

[Alex_brunius]

The Screenshot below is from a Japanese game, the European version is called "Train Giant A Train 9".

click for bigger version

That area in the picture was a fairly quiet suburban area full of apartments buildings 2-8 floors tall before it caught my eye. Basically it was all like the right side of the picture.

So I invested in building a really big train-station (close to maximum size) and start running frequent traffic with many big trains that bringing a lot of traffic into the neighborhood.

So what happens?

The city responds dynamically by starting to build a great deal of offices and skyscrapers, currently you can see that it's building no less then 3 massive skyscrapers at the same time (you can spot them since they are dark at night). Two of them will even become taller then the tallest one you can see on the picture now once they are finished. Within a few years this will become a second city center and commuter/subway traffic between it and the old central station will be a very lucrative business.

And yes those trains are high speed intercity trains and yes they do run to other cities offmap (just like in CiM1 but here you buy them and earn money of them)
And yes the budget numbers are fairly realistic (that station + trains was an investment of around 800 million €).

I recommend the devs at CO try this game out with an open mind, to get some inspiration and new perspective, just give me a PM if you want a guide, because it requires quite bit of different thinking and I found no good guides (I bet there are quite a few in Japanese).

 

[kellergeist79]

You can't compare this game to CiM2, because several things are much different. Passengers in A-Train 9 have no destinations, you bring them anywhere you like and with this you generate growth. They don't change vehicles, and they only travel one stop. If a train goes from A via B to C, all passengers from A get out in B, and all passengers from B go to C. The logic behind this seems to be really simple. The goal in the game is not to build up a network which suits to the inhabbitants, but more of becoming a real estate giant with the help of mass transport. I never got used to this kind of gameplay as IMO two different things are mixed together in a strange way. What I liked about it where realistic figures and stats, payment of several kinds of taxes, but not the key of the game.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Why would it be impossible for CO to use the number of passengers that get on and off at a stop to generate dynamic growth in CiM2?

Just because an idea is simple and effective doesn't mean it has to be bad.

CiM2 advertised dynamic growth as one of it's strong points but I have yet to see areas with many connections and passengers grow more then areas without any.

 

[unmerged(169164)]

First point, the money amount is in Yen. The game does not convert into euros, it is a quick adaptation to the euroland market (€ symbol instead of Yen symbol)

The goal in the game is not to build up a network which suits to the inhabbitants, but more of becoming a real estate giant with the help of mass transport.

You must build a network which suits the inhabitants. If you dont do that, the city stops growing or start shrinking.

Actually, the game takes into account the exiting volumes you mope out in order to figure out what buildings should be built. You cant developp a city without using the AI help (it costs too much and you are crushed by taxation on the long term if you start building everything on your own)

Certain buildings (like red light districts) are unavailable to the player ingame (not editor map)

Each building has a peak hour when it releases the most volume of potential passengers. Getting a train around that time to lift off passengers, the volumes are recorded and stack up until the simulation starts to build additional buildings of the same type.

Following this, you can developp specialized districts (work, leisure,religion, holiday resort, night life etc)
If you dont achieve a certain balance in the composition of your city, people will leave.

You definitively must build a network that satisfy passengers. Meaning that trains should arrive at a certain time at a certain place with enough lift off capacity to keep the city attractive to new comers.

 

[unmerged(169164)]

Why would it be impossible for CO to use the number of passengers that get on and off at a stop to generate dynamic growth in CiM2?

Just because an idea is simple and effective doesn't mean it has to be bad.

I thought of that. I think that eventually, it will make a city converge to people of the same social category living in the same space. Every pensioner will leave in the same corner of the map etc

Now real life takers will say that it is the same as in real life but considering what was the game design at start, it goes against it.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Actually, the game takes into account the exiting volumes you mope out in order to figure out what buildings should be built.

...

Each building has a peak hour when it releases the most volume of potential passengers. Getting a train around that time to lift off passengers, the volumes are recorded and stack up until the simulation starts to build additional buildings of the same type.

Following this, you can developp specialized districts (work, leisure,religion, holiday resort, night life etc)

Guess it's model of dynamic growth was not so simple as it looked at first glance!

But the basic thing still holds true. Dynamic growth in a transport game is all about passengers/traffic causing areas to grow. An effect that if it happens at all in CiM2 is very small and hardly visible.

I thought of that. I think that eventually, it will make a city converge to people of the same social category living in the same space. Every pensioner will leave in the same corner of the map etc

Now real life takers will say that it is the same as in real life but considering what was the game design at start, it goes against it.

The growth does not even have to change the type of buildings or who lives in them (which CiM2 seems to do currently anyways so I don't really see your point there).

The important thing is that the busier area = the higher/bigger buildings.

 

[jimmy_lam]

In my opinion , the a-train is something like railway tycoon which concern more about the railway operation and commercial skill. CIM2 is just a leisure transportation game and concentrating on urban public transportation system.
For example, in A-train all the train are operating according to the timetable, And the timetable system is more detail than the one in CIM2 or even most of the transportation game. In the timetable editor the unit of time is divided up to one minute. In addition, the command of stop the train/ pass through/ forward/ u-turn/ in the station is also available. Every train in this game is an individual and the ideas of "lines" never appear - this simulated the realistic railway operation, trains will run from line to line and having different operation mode (local/ express/ intercity). The bus system in that game is just a co-star - In Japan, railway network is well developed and bus is just aiding the railway network.
Moreover a stock and property market system is provided, you can even make money by stock/property exchange.

 

[Alex_brunius]

In my opinion , the a-train is something like railway tycoon which concern more about the railway operation and commercial skill. CIM2 is just a leisure transportation game and concentrating on urban public transportation system.

Yes, thank you for explaining that A-train is not the same game as CiM2, I bet no one would have guess that on their own!

I focus on what they have in common instead of their differences since that is more interesting to compare them and see what game does what better, and where there is room for improvement in both games

Both games do claim to have "dynamic" growth, but I think A-Trains model is far better, thus my thread. None of them model growth of the road network well (but A-Train at least tries unlike CiM2 that leaves everything to the player).

Both games do model commuter traffic within a city, but here CiM2s model is far better, going into alot of detail down to individuals. CiM2 still need to work on pathfinding but at least there is a start and destination for each travel and lines connected together generate extra traffic for both, which won't happen short term in A-Train (but long term due to extra growth).

Both games try to model economy of running a transportation company, but here I think A-Train is a bit better, since it has more realistic numbers, you pay VAT and Corporation Tax (tax on profits last year). The economy is also more of a challenge even later in the game, and big investments always need to be planned so there is money left to pay back loans or tax.
Another thing I really like with the economy in A-Train is that it really cost a ton to tear down a skyscraper, comparable to building a complete line sometimes, which feels realistic and leads to interesting construction challenges.

Both games let you build roads and railroads, here CiM2 wins hands down due to it's flexibility and lack of a grid. Something I would like to see in both games however is the ability for train speed to be effected more by turn radii, so that you could build expensive but faster straight lines, or cheaper slower lines that have sharper corners around obstacles.

Both games have an GUI, but CiM2 is much easier to learn and has a much more newcommer friendly user interface.


So there you have it, I think CiM2 is a better game on most common points, but in a few fields I think it could be even better without much effort.

 

[rss334]

Better yet just like we set price zones, it can't be that hard to allow zoning for building type. I can create industry zone here, density 1, 2, 3..... residential zone here 1, 2, 3 density. Doing it in this way has now allowed me to build exactly the city I want, and in fact replaces that title called SimCity almost. Right now dynamic cities don't work, I agree makes the game not playable in dynamic city mode because it's just unrealistic.