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Protosszocker

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You need to take a look at the WG numbers again.

No single WG ever sold more than a million copies. EE is still the best-selling out of the three, and that's mainly on the back of sales. Indeed, RUSE still has higher overall sales than both ALB and RD individually. An individual installment of Total War in fact generally sells more than the entire WG series combined, and both CoH games have sold more than all of the WGs combined.

WG sales have in fact been in decline since EE. Nobody in the WG community even seemed to realize this until I did the Steam Spy analysis.

Also, do note again that Steam takes a significant cut of each sale, and that there are considerable marketing costs involved. Paradox itself hasn't had a game with less than 500K sales for the last couple of years too, which is why I highly suspect that's their new benchmark for success.

I dont think Paradox suspects their developer studios for being as sucessfull as their own games. I mean Paradox dev team is at least double the size of Eugen per game.
Also the development costs for a Total war should be much much higher than the ones for a SD Normandy 44 as are their marketing costs.
 

eMeM

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You need to take a look at the WG numbers again.

No single WG ever sold more than a million copies. EE is still the best-selling out of the three, and that's mainly on the back of sales. Indeed, RUSE still has higher overall sales than both ALB and RD individually. An individual installment of Total War in fact generally sells more than the entire WG series combined, and both CoH games have sold more than all of the WGs combined.

WG sales have in fact been in decline since EE. Nobody in the WG community even seemed to realize this until I did the Steam Spy analysis.

Also, do note again that Steam takes a significant cut of each sale, and that there are considerable marketing costs involved. Paradox itself hasn't had a game with less than 500K sales for the last couple of years too, which is why I highly suspect that's their new benchmark for success.
So was Eugen an order of magnitude smaller three years ago or did none of the Wargames break even?
 

Admiral_Awesome

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WG sales have in fact been in decline since EE. Nobody in the WG community even seemed to realize this until I did the Steam Spy analysis.

Sorry to break it to you, but thats old news. And, no, you are not the first and not the only one capable of interpreting steam spy and its data.

On the side notes: Steam prices are NDA, rumor is, it is about 30% (depending on how important you are)
https://www.quora.com/Valve-company-What-percentage-does-Steam-keep-from-sales

There's an intersting article on forbes about why mid size studios go extinct (tl; dr, marketing and content costs), which also explains to some extend the success of R.U.S.E. They did it for Ubisoft and Ubisoft did all of the marketing (they never had a marketing campaing after R.U.S.E. that came even close to this).
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...ets-skyrocketed-in-recent-years/#4dc50c843ea5

If I were Eugen, I would do a survey and after that a kickstarter campaign for Wargame 4. The costs are horrible (kickstarter and steam) but they would have earned the development costs beforehand (or not if the campaing fails). I'd also replace the complete customer relationship department and have a good look at other mid size studios that hande those things pretty well (Larian and Harebraid for example)...
 

I WUB PUGS

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You need to take a look at the WG numbers again.

No single WG ever sold more than a million copies. EE is still the best-selling out of the three, and that's mainly on the back of sales. Indeed, RUSE still has higher overall sales than both ALB and RD individually. An individual installment of Total War in fact generally sells more than the entire WG series combined, and both CoH games have sold more than all of the WGs combined.

WG sales have in fact been in decline since EE. Nobody in the WG community even seemed to realize this until I did the Steam Spy analysis.

Also, do note again that Steam takes a significant cut of each sale, and that there are considerable marketing costs involved. Paradox itself hasn't had a game with less than 500K sales for the last couple of years too, which is why I highly suspect that's their new benchmark for success.

Dude, that's utterly wrong.

EE did not sell that well. It has the highest numbers of sales because it was packaged for free with ALB and with Red Dragon in like four dozen different sales.

Edit: Well it sold well for a niche title in a niche market. Red Dragon's sales are all its own and its sales are the reason Eugen has sold over a million copies of the Wargame Franchise TOTAL. The Millionth Mile came out in July of 2014 to celebrate this achievement. Considering hundreds and hundreds of thousands of copies of EE were shipped for free with ALB and RD and show up in Steam Spy as units sold, you can discount most of those 700k+ units sold of EE.
 
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AlBoulcan

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i think i made a post in eugen forums some time ago and i was talking about matchmaking. One problem is that unfortunatelly there are not many people playing the game, because if they do they could just add ranking matchmaking for teams and for randoms like HOTs. The elo difference won't solve the problem either because of few people playing. Imagine there is someone with elo 1500 group up with a guy of 1900 elo. How can matchmaking handle this...
in any case LegioX feel free to add me on steam(Alboulcan) so we might do some games together. I play mainly with 2 people i know both custom or ranks if i want to team up but we don't use voice chat. We just play together when we are online.
 

Zinegata

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Dude, that's utterly wrong.

EE did not sell that well. It has the highest numbers of sales because it was packaged for free with ALB and with Red Dragon in like four dozen different sales.

Edit: Well it sold well for a niche title in a niche market. Red Dragon's sales are all its own and its sales are the reason Eugen has sold over a million copies of the Wargame Franchise TOTAL. The Millionth Mile came out in July of 2014 to celebrate this achievement. Considering hundreds and hundreds of thousands of copies of EE were shipped for free with ALB and RD and show up in Steam Spy as units sold, you can discount most of those 700k+ units sold of EE.

Actually, if you had read my previous notes on the matter I already pointed out that a large part of the entire WG "playerbase" got the game off sales. I myself only picked up RD during a sale.

The point isn't to say that WG is successful. Indeed, I was replying to disagree with a person who pointed out to the Millionth Mile event to "prove" that WG was successful.

Rather, I was showing that games of that age were more likely to be in the 600-800K sale range; hence Wargame was not necessarily successful but instead was simply more on-par for a game of its age. This is why I also pointed out that RUSE - which is a game that has almost no following today - sold more than RD and ALB individually.
 

I WUB PUGS

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But why are you saying the WG sales have been declining since EE. EE was like a 200k unit game that was their first foray into the Cold War genre and was not really a full feature game. ALB really just added jets and new maps and the national deck system. Red Dragon sold as many as units as those two titles combined. Eugen had a clear trajectory upwards from EE to ALB to RD and has since fallen flat with AoA and SD.

Your statement about Wargame sales declining since EE is flat wrong. They've not declined because the majority of the units sold came after EE was a dead game and merely packaged for a dollar or two with ALB or RD.

RD had basically no advertising behind it and did not appeal to the masses and it sold over 500k copies (though they did have a lot of steam sales). Eugen did very well off of that title, well enough to entice Focus to back AoA and entice Paradox to back Steel Division.
 

Zinegata

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Sorry to break it to you, but thats old news. And, no, you are not the first and not the only one capable of interpreting steam spy and its data.

Very obviously there are plenty of data analysts in the world. That's why it's a profession.

The thing is there hasn't been anyone looking at the "Other Games Owned" feature of Steam Spy and only very, very shallow analysis bordering on "fake news" by SD haters who insisted on only looking at "Active Players", when it's actually one of the less useful metric for determining a game's financial success.

But hey, sure, I didn't do what I said I did. After all, you are the only judge in the world who can validate other people. Inconvenient facts like reddit threads using the exact same "Other Games Owned" analysis down to the percentages I quoted (which actually change day to day) are just "old news" because you refuse to validate it.

On the side notes: Steam prices are NDA, rumor is, it is about 30% (depending on how important you are)
https://www.quora.com/Valve-company-What-percentage-does-Steam-keep-from-sales

Which really doesn't matter because we don't know the final figure at the end of the day.

There's an intersting article on forbes about why mid size studios go extinct (tl; dr, marketing and content costs), which also explains to some extend the success of R.U.S.E. They did it for Ubisoft and Ubisoft did all of the marketing (they never had a marketing campaing after R.U.S.E. that came even close to this).
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...ets-skyrocketed-in-recent-years/#4dc50c843ea5

Again this is putting the cart before the horse. The answer lies with the question "Why didn't Ubisoft pick up another Eugen game"?

If I were Eugen, I would do a survey and after that a kickstarter campaign for Wargame 4. The costs are horrible (kickstarter and steam) but they would have earned the development costs beforehand (or not if the campaing fails). I'd also replace the complete customer relationship department and have a good look at other mid size studios that hande those things pretty well (Larian and Harebraid for example)...

Lol. And it would be the most drama-filled kickstarter ever and not get anywhere. You do realize that the SD forum has like, three times more posts that Tyranny at this point despite having half as many players?

The issue, which is why there's so much saltiness over my simple data analysis, is that much of the WG "community" but most especially its "leadership" is not an enabling one. It's instead permissive - centered around "Only I can validate you", much like your (and many other's) pointless "reaction" to my analysis. That's why there's a lot more discussion on whether frontlines or zones are better ("Only I can validate the frontline mechanics"), instead of accepting that the game has a frontline mechanic and we should enable players by helping them understand its nuances - like say a 10 point Ersatztruppen exerting as much frontline force as a 280 point Panther.

I've switched back to playing Path of Exile at this point - which is a mid-size studio game - and it's really striking how much less drama its streamers and "leaders" engage in because they largely see themselves as enablers: Folks who teach other people how to enjoy the game. But it's a very unusual community to begin with - most games have "permissive" community leadership just like WG - and thinking that replacing Customer Relationship will automatically solve everything is an illusory fantasy. People are people. If they're too busy blaming everything but themselves - or more often than not can't even examine themselves in a serious manner for faults - then don't expect miracles.
 

Zinegata

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But why are you saying the WG sales have been declining since EE. EE was like a 200k unit game that was their first foray into the Cold War genre and was not really a full feature game. ALB really just added jets and new maps and the national deck system. Red Dragon sold as many as units as those two titles combined. Eugen had a clear trajectory upwards from EE to ALB to RD and has since fallen flat with AoA and SD.

Because for all its faults EE has actually sold 800,000 copies on Steam, and ALB which wasn't necessarily bundled has still sold 30K more units than RD's entire run.

Granted, a ton of those were due to sales but RD has had its share of deep discounting as well. This is why for instance RD has sold 544K units but only 456K - or 80% - have actually ever played it. In comparison 97% of SD owners have played it. You can't discount EE's 800K actual final sales count while at the same time ignoring that RD has been deep discounting for the past two years. Indeed, 50K of RD's current sales - a nearly 10% increase - came during a sale that coincided with SD's release!

Moreover, the big thing that people don't realize is that RTSs as a whole have been declining considerably. The first Company of Heroes sold 3 million copies on steam. The second one only sold 2 million. Across the board multiplayer RTS games are in trouble.

In terms of features - which is what you're describing - Wargame has been improving. But it's not translating to actual sales and the decline is in fact very much in line with all of the other RTSs of the same period.

The issue here, which I very often encounter when WG folks first run headlong into the actual stats, is that there's a bit of parochialism with the way they view WG. In reality if you broaden it out to the overall market WG isn't performing all that different from all the other declining RTS franchises.

RD had basically no advertising behind it and did not appeal to the masses and it sold over 500k copies (though they did have a lot of steam sales).

Giant mastheads on Rock Paper Shotgun and very many other gaming sites do not count as "basically no advertising". RD in fact had a fairly significant ad campaign directed at "regular" gamers. That's why so many of Red Dragon players have libraries emblematic of a "regular" strategy gamer - who play stuff like say Civ and Total War - rather than of a hardcore Cold War only mil-sim player.

Moreover, you're clearly operating off the very wrong idea that good games are rewarded with good sales. That's the America/capitalistic ideal, but the market tends to be a lot more fickle. In reality bad games can do a lot better than good ones with the right conditions, otherwise we wouldn't complain every time a new Call of Duty comes out that it's more formulaic than the last installment but it's still going to sell millions of copies.
 

nande

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If they're too busy blaming everything but themselves
blaming customers isn't something a company should be doing
insisted on only looking at "Active Players", when it's actually one of the less useful metric for determining a game's financial success.
release copies sold reflect on the publisher's marketing. Playerbase is the measure of a game's design, which tends to be what's discussed
 
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throwaway

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Because for all its faults EE has actually sold 800,000 copies on Steam, and ALB which wasn't necessarily bundled has still sold 30K more units than RD's entire run.
You're still ignoring the fact that ALB and EE were both bundled with RD. It has been posted multiple times that EE was given away with ALB and RD, and you keep ignoring that to bring up how WRD also got discounts. Every time RD gets discounted, you have the option to get EE and ALB with it for 2 dollars more. Start giving away RD for free with SD or for a dollar, put it in a humble bundle, wait a few years, and then you can compare its numbers to EE.

Moreover, the big thing that people don't realize is that RTSs as a whole have been declining considerably. The first Company of Heroes sold 3 million copies on steam. The second one only sold 2 million. Across the board multiplayer RTS games are in trouble.
And here you repeat the same fallacy but for another franchise. You realize that CoH 1 has been on sale on Humble Bundle for $1 multiple times, and in a bundle where even players who were interested in other games like Darksiders got it? These numbers give little insight in either direction, especially since many of the 2006 CoH1 sales were not via steam.
 

I WUB PUGS

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Because for all its faults EE has actually sold 800,000 copies on Steam, and ALB which wasn't necessarily bundled has still sold 30K more units than RD's entire run.

EE was bundled with ALB, both ALB and EE were bundled with RD.

Counting those bundled copies against RD and trying to pan RD as some sort of flop in comparison to the older titles is disingenuous at best.

The rest of your comments are pretty meaningless if you're going to keep touting EE as some grand success when probably close to 600,000 of its copies were essentially given away for free with ALB and RD. Every single time there was a sale for ALB or RD, you could get the older games in a bundle with the new game(s) for like 2 dollars.
 

Zinegata

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EE was bundled with ALB, both ALB and EE were bundled with RD.

Counting those bundled copies against RD and trying to pan RD as some sort of flop in comparison to the older titles is disingenuous at best.

You know, I just rechecked and I didn't even get ALB and EE with my copy of RD. So where you are getting this "the majority of ALB/EE units sold are bundles" idea? It doesn't seem particularly convincing especially when over 400K out of the 500K or so ALB players have actually fired up their copy, and 500K out of the 800K.

Again, all games in the series had pretty deep sales. That's why only 80% of RD owners have even played the game.

The rest of your comments are pretty meaningless if you're going to keep touting EE as some grand success when probably close to 600,000 of its copies were essentially given away for free with ALB and RD. Every single time there was a sale for ALB or RD, you could get the older games in a bundle with the new game(s) for like 2 dollars.

Yeah because you keep focusing on the fiction of EE's base being entirely based on bundling and not the conditions of the player market at the time.

Which is why you keep ignoring that RUSE also has sold 600K copies and actually has more owners than Red Dragon. But apparently I'm the only one selectively picking data here despite directly addressing the simpler reality that all three games had deep discounting and bundles; and that pointing out getting a masthead ad on one of the Internet's most popular gaming sites is very much a major ad campaign.
 
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Zinegata

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blaming customers isn't something a company should be doing

And here we go again with the feigned offense. I point out that player bases are just as responsible for policing themselves and providing an enabling community. Your first reaction is to pretend that I am "a company".

I'm just another player who has actually seen other game communities be much better at encouraging new players than the one RD has. But you're still trying to pretend I'm actually Eugen, with invented crimes against the playerbase, and that getting a couple of "Agrees" and upvotes from your shrinking circle of Red Dragon friends will somehow give you "victory".

release copies sold reflect on the publisher's marketing. Playerbase is the measure of a game's design, which tends to be what's discussed

CoD still has huge playerbases despite being very cookie-cutter for the past several games. Again, it's just plain old American/Capitalist worship of the false idea of "merit automatically equals success" being shown here. In reality things of "merit" very often fail because of other factors beyond their control.

Maturity means taking these "failures" in stride. And the reality of why my posts are getting "controversy" among the WG crowd is very simple: You know damn well that the metrics of SD's failure points to how RD was also a failure. Why do you think it wasn't picked up for another sequel if it was actually so hot and wasn't just building up sales numbers through bargain-bottom discount sales?

Here's real success for perspective: WG has a peak of 1,000 concurrent players. Age of Empires 2 had 10,000 concurrent players yesterday. Even if you account for the difference in sale size (4M for AOE2 vs 600K for RD) you'd find that AoE2 players are twice as likely to play their game that WG players are.

The fact is, WG's community is again simply a permissive one. Its too busy trying to pretend only they can validate other opinions/games/whatever. That's why you had Razzman thinking he had to create a video saying "SD won't have legs" - it was essentially the WG community leadership trying to throw its weight around and demand that Eugen's success only be possible with their permission.

Problem is nobody in the larger gaming community wants that kind of negativity. They see such kind of personalities as tyrant-wannabes and instinctively avoid them. And that's probably coincidentally why the video didn't even get 10,000 views, whereas Vulcan (who is one of the few enabling characters of the community) regularly gets that many views for each of his videos.

But hey, sure, keep living in that small world where WG is hugely successful financially and that Eugen will assuredly make more sequels like they should have. And that the 1,000 or so concurrent regular players were primarily responsible for this success which is why there are hundreds of thousands of views and clicks per video of Red Dragon even to this day.

The possibility that Eugen was forced to make something like Act of Aggression because WG:RD didn't meet financial expectations and that SD was a similar attempt to gain a real mass-market hit is to be ignored. Because otherwise it would break your worship of the myth that only successful things can be good things - and you've spent too much time and effort on insisting that WG is "good" to ever admit that it might not have been all that successful.
 
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nande

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And here we go again with the feigned offense. I point out that player bases are just as responsible for policing themselves and providing an enabling community. Your first reaction is to pretend that I am "a company".

I'm just another player who has actually seen other game communities be much better at encouraging new players than the one RD has. But you're still trying to pretend I'm actually Eugen, with invented crimes against the playerbase, and that getting a couple of "Agrees" and upvotes from your shrinking circle of Red Dragon friends will somehow give you "victory".
gee, I was just replying to your suggestion that we should somehow blame ourselves for not adequately shilling the game or buying 10 copies.
Then, you've said yourself that SD's community has little overlap with WG's. Why would the game attract this sort of community?
CoD still has huge playerbases
it does? I heard the newer ones die fast. Even a quick google search gave this
https://steamcommunity.com/app/209660/discussions/0/617335934139232905/
why bring up CoD, anyway. Do you think it doesn't deserve its success?
And that the 1,000 or so concurrent regular players were primarily responsible for this success
hell, maybe they were. If you've seen warchat, you'd probably know that half of /pol/ somehow got wind of the series.
 
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Protosszocker

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Why are we still arguing bs like this in here ? Talking about ingame stuff, about community stuff, about how to play the game, how we want them to change the game (topic of the poll) okay. but insulting each other in an offical forum is just borderline stupid. Go and make a private conversation out of it or take your self a chamber and discuss it in real life. Lets talk about the GAME not how Eugen isnt your fav company! Btw @nande what are you doing still here why aren tyou playing games or meet your gf or so. I mean you dont play the game so you dont need to hang out in the games forum. Its like dota players hanging out in League forums.