This game needs 1942 and 1943 starts

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Secret Master

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I don't think so. They could hard script the game to stay locked into "historical" mode no matter the paths taken by the player, or players, and not have to worry so much about an adaptive AI that tries to take into account the actions of humans.

Of course, you're old enough to remember Vic1 and the infamous "Crimean War" strait jacket. Yeah, the AI didn't need a lot help, but that was because the Crimean War would happen no matter how insane the circumstances. There was nothing you could do to improve AI performance.

Russia just finished a war with the Ottomans? Too bad, time for the Crimean War. Ottomans and Russia trying to align diplomatically to stop an Austria gone berserk? Too bad, time for the Crimean War. Russia just lost half a million people fighting a war with Conservative Empire Germany in alliance with France? Too bad, time for the Crimean War. Britain and Russia aligning to stop French influence in Asia? Too bad, time for the Crimean War. Want to launch a Crimean War in three years? Too bad, it fired today. Hope you brought the Light Brigade.

For all the faults of the AI in HOI4, it's far less idiotic in execution than strait jacketed wars fired by decision or event.
 

hkrommel

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T-34 and KV were good models, but they lagged behind Germany:

The early T-34s weren't very good but they didn't lag behind Germany at all. German tanks and AT guns were wholly inadequate at dealing with the T-34 (the Panzer II still made up a majority of numerous German formations!), and would remain outclassed by it until the Panther came along. There were early problems in the T-34s design that adversely affected its performance but there's no way you could argue that the German tanks at the time were actually better, the Soviets just had very few T-34s and KV-1s with which to stop the Germans. Most of what they had were T-26 and BT-7 models.

Because you consider artillery + mortars. The Soviet Union lagged behind Germany in artillery, but outnumbered mortars, which are relatively cheap in production. This is a consequence of technical backwardness.

The Germans straight up copied the Soviet M1938 mortars that were in service in 1941 for their own Granatwerfer 42 so I wouldn't say they were "backward" in any sense of the word.

the quality of artillery

I would encourage you to actually research the quality of artillery differences. On the whole, the Germans had superior light artillery but the Soviets had superior mortars, medium artillery, and heavy artillery. They were more accurate with the big guns at longer distances, though the German 7,5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18 was a work of genius. The sFH 18, for example, was inferior to the Soviet 76mm divisional guns which could fire much further, even against the German rocket-assisted rounds.

the number of anti-tank guns per division

If only those 37mm AT guns could actually do anything against T-34s :rolleyes:

Tell us about the reasons for the defeat of the French army in 1940.
- There are no repressions.
- There is no political interference.
- The army is fully deployed. (Unlike the USSR).
- There is no terrible Stalin.

Ok you're very wrong there. There was an immense amount of political interference in the French army. Officers were chosen based on loyalty to the regime, the decision to rush into Belgium was highly political, and the decisions regarding the slow mobilization of French forces were the result of politics. The French army was far from fully deployed, and that's the only reason the Germans won. There were very few formations (none of them adequately equipped) who opposed the German attack through Sedan (Guderian's tanks even had to refuel at civilian gas stations!). The French plan, basically, was to have the A-list divisions stop the German advance through Belgium, the B-list divisions hold the forts against the Germans and the Italians, and the C-list (conscripts) divisions to plug the gaps and build up parity with the German forces where needed. The problem is that conscription happened far too slowly because of political issues with Communists.

- Germany has numerical superiority.

For a very short period of time.

- Germany has technical superiority.

As previously pointed out their tanks were hopelessly inferior to the newer Soviet tanks, their artillery was mostly outdated, etc. This is way closer than you think.

- Germany has superiority in the experience of modern warfare.

No. The Soviets had the Spanish Civil War, Khalkin Gol, the Winter War, and the invasion of Poland. That should have been enough.

- The army of Germany is fully deployed and ready for battle.

The Soviets should have been too. It was pure stupidity on their part.
 

Rustaveli

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Sep 7, 2016
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The early T-34s weren't very good but they didn't lag behind Germany at all
Lagging in: the quality of communication, the quality of the armor (not the thickness), the quality of the optics, the quality of the shells, the accuracy of the main gun, the engine life, the overall technical perfection.
German tanks and AT guns were wholly inadequate at dealing with the T-34
- Use of subcaliber and cumulative projectiles.
- Use of anti-aircraft guns.
- Aviation.
- Bypass from the flank.
- Mines and grenades.
There were early problems in the T-34s design that adversely affected its performance but there's no way you could argue that the German tanks at the time were actually better
The quality of the new models of Soviet tanks was Leveled by the combined superiority of the German army in other aspects. (Communication, optics, the experience of modern warfare, logistics, the overall technical perfection, the interaction of different kinds of troops).
The Germans straight up copied the Soviet M1938 mortars that were in service in 1941 for their own Granatwerfer 42 so I wouldn't say they were "backward" in any sense of the word.
The simple truth: you can have superiority in certain types of weapons, but lose on the totality of the remaining characteristics. German artillery was technically more perfect, had more accurate guns, projectiles of better quality, used more shells than soviets.
Ammunition consumption on the eastern front (in tons):
The first column is the USSR, the second is Germany.
1942 - 446.113 : 709.957
1943 - 828,193 : 1,121,545
1944 - 1,000,962 : 1,540,933.
The French army was far from fully deployed, and that's the only reason the Germans won.
Not very convincing. France had more than 8 months to fully mobilize and deploy. How can the Communists affect this?
For a very short period of time.
About half a year. Is this not enough for Barbarossa?
Correlation of forces on the eastern front:
June 1941:
Germany - 4.6 million (with allies - 5.5 million).
The USSR - 3.2 million.

September 1941:
Germany (without allies) - 4.3 million.
The USSR - 3.2 million.

January 1942:
Germany (without allies) - 3.9 million.
The USSR - 4.2 million.

Spring 1942:
Germany - 5.3 million (together with allies - 6.2 million).
The USSR - 5.1 million.

Summer of 1942:
Germany - (without allies) 5.65 million.
The USSR - 5.5 million.

The beginning of autumn 1942:
Germany with its allies - 6.2 million.
The USSR - 6.1 million.

November 1942:
Germany with its allies - 6.2 million.
The USSR - 6.6 million.

Summer of 1943:
Germany - 5.3 million.
The USSR - 6.6 million.

Early 1944:
Germany - 4.9 million
The USSR - 6.3 million.

Summer of 1944:
Germany - 4 million.
The USSR - 6.4 million.

Early 1945:
Germany and Hungary - 3.7 million.
The USSR - 6.7 million.

As previously pointed out their tanks were hopelessly inferior to the newer Soviet tanks, their artillery was mostly outdated, etc. This is way closer than you think.
German tanks were inferior to the Soviet in certain parametres: the thickness of armor and speed. But excelled in everything else. (Communication, optics, guns, shells, engine, technical perfection).

Soviet artillery could not greatly exceed the German (except for individual guns), because the USSR was a country that just before the war ended industrialization. On the contrary, Germany is an advanced industrial power.
No. The Soviets had the Spanish Civil War, Khalkin Gol, the Winter War, and the invasion of Poland. That should have been enough.
The war in Spain is mainly the work of the pilots. Very limited experience.
Khalkhin Gol and Finland are local conflicts in which only part of the army took part.
The invasion of Poland - the Polish army has only a separate resistance, because her command gave such an order.
The Soviets should have been too. It was pure stupidity on their part.
Your arguments? The rearmament of the Soviet army was planned by the end of 1942 - early 1943.
 

Ffire

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Lagging in: the quality of communication, the quality of the armor (not the thickness), the quality of the optics, the quality of the shells, the accuracy of the main gun, the engine life, the overall technical perfection.

- Use of subcaliber and cumulative projectiles.
- Use of anti-aircraft guns.
- Aviation.
- Bypass from the flank.
- Mines and grenades.

The quality of the new models of Soviet tanks was Leveled by the combined superiority of the German army in other aspects. (Communication, optics, the experience of modern warfare, logistics, the overall technical perfection, the interaction of different kinds of troops).

The simple truth: you can have superiority in certain types of weapons, but lose on the totality of the remaining characteristics. German artillery was technically more perfect, had more accurate guns, projectiles of better quality, used more shells than soviets.
Ammunition consumption on the eastern front (in tons):
The first column is the USSR, the second is Germany.
1942 - 446.113 : 709.957
1943 - 828,193 : 1,121,545
1944 - 1,000,962 : 1,540,933.

Not very convincing. France had more than 8 months to fully mobilize and deploy. How can the Communists affect this?

About half a year. Is this not enough for Barbarossa?
Correlation of forces on the eastern front:
June 1941:
Germany - 4.6 million (with allies - 5.5 million).
The USSR - 3.2 million.

September 1941:
Germany (without allies) - 4.3 million.
The USSR - 3.2 million.

January 1942:
Germany (without allies) - 3.9 million.
The USSR - 4.2 million.

Spring 1942:
Germany - 5.3 million (together with allies - 6.2 million).
The USSR - 5.1 million.

Summer of 1942:
Germany - (without allies) 5.65 million.
The USSR - 5.5 million.

The beginning of autumn 1942:
Germany with its allies - 6.2 million.
The USSR - 6.1 million.

November 1942:
Germany with its allies - 6.2 million.
The USSR - 6.6 million.

Summer of 1943:
Germany - 5.3 million.
The USSR - 6.6 million.

Early 1944:
Germany - 4.9 million
The USSR - 6.3 million.

Summer of 1944:
Germany - 4 million.
The USSR - 6.4 million.

Early 1945:
Germany and Hungary - 3.7 million.
The USSR - 6.7 million.


German tanks were inferior to the Soviet in certain parametres: the thickness of armor and speed. But excelled in everything else. (Communication, optics, guns, shells, engine, technical perfection).

Soviet artillery could not greatly exceed the German (except for individual guns), because the USSR was a country that just before the war ended industrialization. On the contrary, Germany is an advanced industrial power.

The war in Spain is mainly the work of the pilots. Very limited experience.
Khalkhin Gol and Finland are local conflicts in which only part of the army took part.
The invasion of Poland - the Polish army has only a separate resistance, because her command gave such an order.

Your arguments? The rearmament of the Soviet army was planned by the end of 1942 - early 1943.

I think truth is between what your both saying. And there's also a lot of mistakes from both of you (just to point one red army ground xp in Spain was important because they decide right after to disband their mecanized corps -huge mistake- / in Spain their T26 tanks face nothing able to mach them they did not feel the urge to update them)

But let's assume, that, like in game for a 1941 Scenario
I16 is equivalent to Bf109
T34/KV reliability is ok in 1941, older models disponibility is 100% (T26 and BT7 are equivalent to Pz1 and 2, wich are still the vast majority of german armor)
the player can fully redeploy the Red Army without Stalin forbidding any moves (Stalin still forbid his troops to fire without being under fire or to cross the border AFTER the start of the invasion).
You always know where yours units are and can send them orders. you do not lack radios for command and control
You dont have a battle doctrine wich forbid any retreat and force you to always attack, counter attack and never retreat even close to get encircled.
The player can choose to go on defensive stance since day 1

With this in game barbarossa should not be as successful as it was in real life
 

hkrommel

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Lagging in: the quality of communication, the quality of the armor (not the thickness), the quality of the optics, the quality of the shells, the accuracy of the main gun, the engine life, the overall technical perfection.

Communication, optics, engine are correct, the rest aren't. The quality of the armor metallurgy was negligibly different, the shells were fine (lend-lease is largely to thank for that, the Soviets were able to produce higher quality ammunition than they would have otherwise because of it), the main gun was more accurate at greater distances (and the only remotely comparable tank gun the Germans had was the 50mm which didn't do much).

- Use of subcaliber and cumulative projectiles.
- Use of anti-aircraft guns.
- Aviation.
- Bypass from the flank.
- Mines and grenades.

I was responding to your claims about German tanks.

The simple truth: you can have superiority in certain types of weapons, but lose on the totality of the remaining characteristics. German artillery was technically more perfect, had more accurate guns, projectiles of better quality, used more shells than soviets.

That's totally false. When considering all types of artillery (mortars, light artillery, medium artillery, heavy artillery) the Germans were superior in one category in 1941, the Soviets in 2, and the 3rd (heavy artillery) was more of a wash.

Ammunition consumption on the eastern front (in tons):
The first column is the USSR, the second is Germany.
1942 - 446.113 : 709.957
1943 - 828,193 : 1,121,545
1944 - 1,000,962 : 1,540,933.

Ammunition consumption has nothing to do with quality of the guns shooting it. Nothing. Besides, you expend more ammunition in offensive operations so those numbers make sense.

Not very convincing. France had more than 8 months to fully mobilize and deploy. How can the Communists affect this?

You've only got 19 posts on the forum so I'll cut you a little slack here. When you get in discussions like this it's generally assumed that you have a base knowledge of the topics involved unless admitted otherwise. The massive problems the French had with Communists and public unrest in regard to conscription ("Why die for Danzig?" was a popular slogan) are common knowledge for those who have conducted even cursory research on the subject. The French should have defeated the Germans and a combination of political factors (like preventing a full-scale mutiny) and pure bad luck (seriously, study the German breakthrough and it was incredibly precarious for a long time) prevented them from doing so.

About half a year. Is this not enough for Barbarossa?

Not even close. The only objective achieved by Barbarossa was that of Army Group South. Leningrad would hold until relieved and Moscow was never realistically under threat of being lost. It was logistically impossible for the Germans to come close to fulfilling Barbarossa's objectives in six months given the logistical situation.

German tanks were inferior to the Soviet in certain parametres: the thickness of armor and speed. But excelled in everything else. (Communication, optics, guns, shells, engine, technical perfection).

Again, totally false. The guns were vastly superior on the T-34 compared to the Pz II, Pz III (even with the 50mm), and Pz IV F1. Besides what is this "technical perfection" you keep referencing? How is is measured? The German tanks were far from perfect, indeed German equipment tended to be over-engineered and thus need unrealistic amounts of effort to maintain and keep supplied with spare parts.

If you want to talk about the BT-7 and T-26 we can, but you've specifically referenced the T-34 and KV-1 multiple times now so I'm operating on those terms.

Soviet artillery could not greatly exceed the German (except for individual guns), because the USSR was a country that just before the war ended industrialization. On the contrary, Germany is an advanced industrial power.

The Soviets had plenty of artillery pieces and vastly outproduced the Germans over the course of the war. The British outproduced the Germans in many categories. The US outproduced everyone. German industry was, quite simply, crap compared to the Allies.

The war in Spain is mainly the work of the pilots. Very limited experience.

You're forgetting about a mechanized brigade, and it was enough for the Germans apparently.

Khalkhin Gol and Finland are local conflicts in which only part of the army took part.

Wait so every part of the army needs to take part in something for it to count as experience? Not all of the German army fought in Poland, France, Scandinavia, the Balkans, or North Africa before Barbarossa. Were they not experienced? Clarify your criteria and be precise with your language.

Your arguments? The rearmament of the Soviet army was planned by the end of 1942 - early 1943.

So which is it, they weren't fully modernized or they weren't deployed? Those are two very different things. The Soviet OOB was established, the formations were in the field. That has nothing to do with rearmament. No nation was totally up to date on all its equipment at any point in the war.
 

Rustaveli

Corporal
Sep 7, 2016
49
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The quality of the armor metallurgy was negligibly different, the shells were fine (lend-lease is largely to thank for that, the Soviets were able to produce higher quality ammunition than they would have otherwise because of it)
The quality of German steel was traditionally more perfect. The USSR was a poorer country, so it could not directly compete with the quality of German alloys.

The first samples of armor-piercing projectiles t-34 had a high percentage of rejection (lack of development of new technologies) and simply split about the armor of enemy tanks.

Lend-Lease? Did you know that the share of supplies for the period 1941-1942. (The heaviest for the USSR) of the total number of deliveries was about 10%? (How could these 10% affect the overall situation at the front?). The remaining 90% - 1943-1945, when the USSR had already seized the strategic initiative. Lend-Lease accelerated the victory of the USSR, but did not predetermine it.
I was responding to your claims about German tanks.
Statistics of the defeat of Soviet tanks:
Anti-tank guns, antiaircraft guns, self-propelled guns - 60%.
Tanks of the enemy - 20%.
Artillery - 5%.
Mines - 5%.
Aviation and infantry - 10%.
That's totally false. When considering all types of artillery (mortars, light artillery, medium artillery, heavy artillery) the Germans were superior in one category in 1941, the Soviets in 2, and the 3rd (heavy artillery) was more of a wash.
Only Soviet guns of new types could compete with German ones. They were developed in the second half of the 1930s and their implementation was intended to reduce the backlog of Western armies. Rearmament was to be completed by 1943.
Ammunition consumption has nothing to do with quality of the guns shooting it. Nothing. Besides, you expend more ammunition in offensive operations so those numbers make sense.
What offensive operations was carried out by the German army on the eastern front in 1944? Only local. Then why the expenditure of ammunition in the German army is higher? Because the German industry was more perfect than the Soviet. You do not want to admit it.
The massive problems the French had with Communists and public unrest in regard to conscription ("Why die for Danzig?" was a popular slogan) are common knowledge for those who have conducted even cursory research on the subject. The French should have defeated the Germans and a combination of political factors (like preventing a full-scale mutiny) and pure bad luck (seriously, study the German breakthrough and it was incredibly precarious for a long time) prevented them from doing so.
Thus, you expose the French fools, because they (in your words) for 8 months could not bring order in their rear? Absurd. "Bad luck" is too vague a term. Very similar to the German analog: "Hitler prevented us (generals) from winning the war." Ordinary propaganda.

After the victory over Poland, Germany's human resources increased to 107 million people, and allies (without colonies) fell to 87 million. The economic resources of the Reich also surpassed the resources of the Allies. Therefore, the victory over the allies (1940) was largely predetermined: the Reich had more people, a better industry, a more experienced army, a more united people. Having achieved this victory, the Reich became even stronger. Hitler was not in vain considering in mid-1940 that the war was largely won: she could only convince Britain in the world. This country has no chance against the Reich, and it hopes for two potential allies - the US and the USSR. Destroy the US - Germany does not have such an opportunity, but you can try to destroy the USSR. Thus, the Barbarossa plan is born.
Not even close. The only objective achieved by Barbarossa was that of Army Group South. Leningrad would hold until relieved and Moscow was never realistically under threat of being lost. It was logistically impossible for the Germans to come close to fulfilling Barbarossa's objectives in six months given the logistical situation.
The numerical superiority of the Axis countries was:
- The summer of 1941 - the winter of 1941.
- The spring of 1942 - the fall of 1942.
Two full-fledged campaigns. This is not a "short time", but almost half of the war.
Again, totally false. The guns were vastly superior on the T-34 compared to the Pz II, Pz III (even with the 50mm), and Pz IV F1. Besides what is this "technical perfection" you keep referencing? How is is measured?
The quality of the shells of Panzer 3-4 tanks and anti-tank guns was higher than that of the T-34. And the accuracy of the guns - too.

"General technical perfection" is defined simply: any person enter inside the tank and looks at its "stuffing". The result is not in favor of Soviet tanks, which is logical, because It was the USSR that was catching up with Western countries, and not vice versa.
The Soviets had plenty of artillery pieces and vastly outproduced the Germans over the course of the war
The USSR surpassed Germany only in the number of mortars. In the rest - inferior. (See ammunition consumption).
German industry was, quite simply, crap compared to the Allies
German industry = Poland + France + UK. It is not necessary to make idiots from the allies fighting with an enemy who has a "weak industry".
You're forgetting about a mechanized brigade, and it was enough for the Germans apparently.
In any case - it was a limited experience (in terms of the full experience for the army). By the way, it was the results of this experience that made a decision on the development of new types of weapons. Germany had a technically more advanced army at that time, so it did not need an "update".
Wait so every part of the army needs to take part in something for it to count as experience? Not all of the German army fought in Poland, France, Scandinavia, the Balkans, or North Africa before Barbarossa. Were they not experienced? Clarify your criteria and be precise with your language.
At least - more than half. Against Poland, Germany sent 1.6 million people. (According to other sources - 1.8 million). In the west there are 400 thousand. Thus, about 80% of the German army received the experience of modern warfare.

For example: The number of the Red Army in December 1939 - 3.2 million. Against Finland - 425 thousand. 1/8 of the army. The number in February 1940 - 4.2 million against Finland - 760 thousand. 1 / 5.5 of the army.
So which is it, they weren't fully modernized or they weren't deployed? Those are two very different things.
Both. The size of the Red Army after deployment is 6 / 6.5 million at the front. In June 1941 - there were 3.2 million - from the border and 400 km in depth.
No nation was totally up to date on all its equipment at any point in the war.
Completely - no. But it was the technical superiority of the German army that pushed Hitler to a more early start of the war. He talks about this before the generals, it seems in November 1937.
 
Last edited:

Telenil

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When you get in discussions like this it's generally assumed that you have a base knowledge of the topics involved unless admitted otherwise. The massive problems the French had with Communists and public unrest in regard to conscription ("Why die for Danzig?" was a popular slogan) are common knowledge for those who have conducted even cursory research on the subject. The French should have defeated the Germans and a combination of political factors (like preventing a full-scale mutiny) and pure bad luck (seriously, study the German breakthrough and it was incredibly precarious for a long time) prevented them from doing so.
I'm French, this is mostly wrong.

The French army had as many men as French generals expected. Morale was poor not because of communist subversion, much less because soldiers were about to mutiny. It was because the generals didn't allow the soldiers to fight the German, lest they retaliate and destroy private property (true story). Also because the nation was not prepared politically after several years of appeasement, and then the soldiers grew bored during months of phony war (while the German were training their own men).

Then the Allies entered Belgium while leaving only a second-grade troops to cover the Luxemburg area. When the German broke through, the troops just to the South were ordered to cover the Maginot line rather than counter-attacking. French generals also didn't imagine that civilians would clog the roads, nor that German planes would bomb their rear, and the resulting disorganisation caused the few tank divisions that could have made a difference to run out of oil.

But worst of all, the generals prepared for a repeat of WW1 and refused to consider anything that didn't fit, to the point they didn't support those in the armed forces who studied the tactics used by the German in Poland.

If it's bad luck, it's the sort of bad luck that makes the end exams to be about one of the subjects the student didn't study when he should have. All French historians agree that the German did the exact thing the French army wasn't prepared for, and that the immediate reaction was much worse than it could have been, but I don't know if any believes we could have beaten the German, even in a longer war.
 
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Axe99

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Do modders actually have any interest in post-1936 start dates?

Some modders have already produced later start dates, so I think that's a yes :). I'd be interested in one m'self at some point, but there's literally half a decades' stuff of other stuff I'd rather mod first.
 

FOARP

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Paradox has the resources to make it happen if they really wanted to. I mean they were able to buy White Wolf.

I wouldn't make any assumptions on how much ready cash a company has just on the fact that it has made an acquisition. I could buy a company tomorrow if i could get a bank to loan me the money, that wouldn't mean I had any more money to spend on the groceries!
 

FOARP

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I highly doubt it. More research, possibly, but you definitely need way more bug-testing once you "open the floodgates" for all kinds of possible historical paths. Keep in mind the heavily scripted gameplay of HOI3 was a kind of "emergency solution", as far as I understand, because they couldn't make the CK/EU open approach work (you had all kinds of weird war declarations and whatnot).

I was highly sceptical to the sandbox approach for HOI4, but now that I've actually gotten to play it, I'm glad they decided to give it another shot.

Yeah, this is what people keep missing about HOI3's scripting - it was an admission of defeat, a kludge that didn't work very well.
 

Duke_Dave

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Well making it just requires one person to do some research and then make some decisions regarding research/NF, but that is still one person doing nothing else, plus it might require some more pictures. But as long as the game basically is ends 1943/1944 it is kind if pointless. When they make NF, and content for 1945-1955, we will see new start dates, they said during PDX Con that they would like to see the Korean war, so eventually. But currently there are more pressing issues.
 

Claremont Waltz

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This is not true. USSR Technically lagged behind Germany, so he had to compensate for his backwardness by increasing the volume of tanks in peacetime. During the war there is no guarantee that a large amount of production will continue, so it is best to prepare an army in peacetime. Higher quality of Soviet tanks? T-34 and KV were good models, but they lagged behind Germany: communication quality, quality of projectiles (subcaliber, cumulative), quality of armored steel, quality of surveillance devices, overall technical quality. Germany carried out industrialization by 1890, and the USSR - only by 1940. The difference was not less than 50 years. This was explicitly stated by Stalin during his speech on February 4, 1931: "We have lagged behind the advanced powers for 50-100 years, if we can not reduce this gap in 10 years - we will be destroyed."

WEW LAD. I encourage you to pick up a modern text on Operation Barbarossa, like Robert Forczyk's two volume on Tank Warfare on the eastern front. The modern soviet tanks were numerous and barely penetrable by German tanks. Where they failed was in tactical employment, with piecemeal unsupported attacks into prepared German positions.

And you're quoting Stalin from 31. You know what the difference was between 31 and 41? An enormous burst of industrialization and militarization in the USSR.

The number of Soviet aircraft in the European part of the USSR is about 8500. Of these, modern - about 700. The enemy - 4,900 aircraft, 90% of which are modern. Try on the I-16 shoot down the Junkers-88. You will not even catch up with him. Thus, the Soviet Aviation at the beginning of the war had some superiority In the number, but lagged behind in technical perfection from the enemy, which predetermined its defeat.

I'm more of a ground forces person, so I'll abandon the air portion. That said, air power is hardly a decisive factor and the soviets managed several brutally effective offensives despite being under enemy air superiority, as did the Germans later in the war.

Because you consider artillery + mortars. The Soviet Union lagged behind Germany in artillery, but outnumbered mortars, which are relatively cheap in production. This is a consequence of technical backwardness.

I'll get to this later.

Cavalry is a good weapon against an opponent who does not have heavy weapons. If it is available (artillery, automatic weapons, tanks, aviation) - it is very vulnerable. This causes its limited use. The most effective in these conditions were the actions of tank and mechanized troops, which received significant development. In this connection, in early 1943, the Stavka decided to conduct a serious reorganization of the cavalry.

This entire section represents a thorough misunderstanding of the tactical and operational use of cavalry in the Polish and Soviet armies during the "interwar" and Second World War periods.

For example, Soviet forces lacked an indigenous infantry halftrack and did not consider it a priority. "mechanized" meant that a formation had tanks. The infantry associated was either truck, horse, or tank transported.

Horses could be and were used numerous times for cavalry charges - in a good number of cases with great success - but in most cases horse mounted troopers fought dismounted. They were very capable of bringing heavy weapons along with them, and were often more heavily armed than comparable infantry formations.

Again, they were more mobile in the sort of rough terrain and poor weather conditions they fought in than mechanized or motorized formations.

In theory. The Soviet army did not have the combat experience of a major modern war. There was an experience of local conflicts against: Japan, Finland, the war in Spain. The last major war for the USSR was a civil war. Germany, on the contrary, has a rich experience of modern war in Europe (1939-1941). After each campaign, the Germans improve their strategy. The only chance for the USSR to get such experience is practice. Which happened. (Barbarossa).

This entirely misrepresents Soviet combat experience in the Polish Soviet War, the Civil War, the war with Finland, involvement in the Spanish Civil War and the numerous heavily mechanized clashes with Japan.

It also betrays total ignorance of soviet operational thought. I encourage you to pick up something like Richard Harrison's book on doctrinal developments in Russia from 1904 to 1941.

The soviets had every understanding of mechanized warfare, they simply lacked competent commanders at basically every tier of command after a decade of ineptitude, incompetence and outright violence in personnel management by Stalin and his cronies. Had the soviet command echelons not been denuded of damn near anyone with experience leading formations larger than a company or battalion they would have performed far more ably.

No. The German army had superiority in the following aspects: the quality of communications, the quality of artillery (and ammunition consumption), the number of anti-tank guns per division, the number of trucks and armored personnel carriers, the number of automatic weapons, the overall technical quality of the army. It would be wrong to exclude tanks and aviation from this equation, because this is a single mechanism of army functioning.

Soviet logistics was in far better shape than German at nearly every point in the conflict. I'm not sure how anyone could ever think otherwise given the mountain of evidence available.

Automatic weapons aren't particularly critical when your doctrine relies on artillery support. The soviets could call on 50,000 guns from sizes of 45mm to 305mm in 1941. This utterly dwarfed the artillery available to the Germans.

Germany maintained that communications advantage throughout the war despite enduring a crushing defeat at the hands of soviet tactics and operational art which neither assumed nor required competence on the part of ground forces.

German anti tank guns were more available. They were also largely useless except against the (admittedly numerous) T26 and BT7. Against the better soviet tanks - of which there were thousands, with more rolling off the production line every day - they were utterly useless. Meanwhile soviet AT guns - when they weren't being completely misused - were devastatingly effective against German tanks. They also had large numbers of 76.2mm universal guns that could and did function perfectly well in AT and AA roles.

The balance of power at the beginning of the Barbarossa campaign was more beneficial for Germany than you wrote. Germany had deployed and ready to fight:
Land forces - 3.3 million people.
The Luftwaffe - 1.2 million people.
Kriegsmarine - 100 thousand people.
Total - 4.6 million people. Plus, the forces of the Allied Axis - about 900 thousand people. Total - 5.5 million people. Against 3.2 million people from the Red Army (land forces, aviation, fleet), divided into three strategic echelons. Germany has the ability to create multiple local superiority and destroy the enemy in parts.

And if active soviet forces not in the immediate invasion area we're included, the soviets pre-mobilization had a gigantic advantage in manpower.

Tell us about the reasons for the defeat of the French army in 1940.
- There are no repressions.
- There is no political interference.
- The army is fully deployed. (Unlike the USSR).
- There is no terrible Stalin.

I recommend reading The Blitzkrieg Legend by Karl-Heinz Freiser. In short, the German army got very very lucky, and also managed to get inside the French OODA loop despite, again, Allied numerical and technical superiority. Had the French at literally any point simply attacked with reserves on hand rather than dawdling for at least two days beforehand, they'd have been able to either cut the Germans off or entirely prevent the crossing at Sedan. Hitler spent the entire invasion dead certain that his forces were walking into a trap and actually stopped the offensive just before Dunkirk so that the flanks could be reinforced to prevent a French attack from the south that never came (myths about the panzer forces needing a rest are not borne out by the documents or personal attestation of division commanders. If you're curious about the why, I have a book at home about French political failures from 1920 to 1940 that goes into exhaustive detail about the choices that went into their spectacular failure.

There are no grounds for such a conclusion:
- Germany has numerical superiority.
- Germany has technical superiority.
- Germany has superiority in the experience of modern warfare.
- The army of Germany is fully deployed and ready for battle.
That is why the main Western military analysts predicted the imminent collapse of the USSR. Hitler also believed so.

Most western analysts were almost as spectacularly misinformed about the soviet army as you appear to be.

And while Hitler believed the soviets were bound to collapse, his general staff absolutely did not as recorded in Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction.

Heres a fun one from Tooze about the German army in the winter of 41.

Tooze said:
Army Group Centre was knocked to its knees. The war diary of Panzer Group Three reported a dramatic state of collapse: ‘Discipline is breaking down. More and more soldiers are heading west on foot without weapons, leading a calf on a rope or pulling a sled loaded with potatoes. The road is under constant air attack. Those killed by bombs are no longer being buried. All the hangers-on (cargo troops, Luftwaffe, supply train) are pouring back to the rear in full flight

And another on Whermact planning for the invasion.

Tooze said:
A massive central thrust towards Moscow, accompanied by flanking encirclements of the Soviet forces trapped in the north and south, would allow the Red Army to be broken on the Dnieper–Dvina river line within 500 kilometres of the Polish-German border. The Dnieper–Dvina river line was critical because beyond that point logistical constraints on the German army were binding.79 These limitations on Germany’s new style of ‘Blitzkrieg’ had not been obvious in 1940, because the depth of operations required by Manstein’s encircling blow (Sichelschnitt) had never exceeded a few hundred kilometres. The entire operation could therefore be supplied by trucks shuttling back and forth from the German border. On the basis of their experience in France, the Wehrmacht’s logistical staff calculated that the efficient total range for trucks was 600 kilometres, giving an operational depth of 300. Beyond that point the trucks themselves used up so much of the fuel they were carrying that they became inefficient as a means of transport. Given the vast distances encountered in the Soviet Union, an operational depth of 300 kilometres was absurdly restrictive. To extend the range of the logistical system, the Wehrmacht therefore split its motor pool into two segments. One set of trucks would move forward with the Panzer units and would ferry fuel and ammunition from intermediate dumps that would be resupplied by the main fleet operating from the borders of the General Government. By this expedient, it was hoped that the initial logistical range could be extended to 500 kilometres. By happy chance, this coincided exactly with the Dnieper–Dvina line. Halder, the army’s chief of staff, was clearly aware of the fundamental importance of this constraint. In his diary at the end of January 1941 he noted that the success of Barbarossa depended on speed. ‘Speed! No stops! Do not wait for railway! Do everything with motor vehicles.’ There must be ‘no hold ups’, ‘that alone guarantees victory’. If serious fighting were to extend beyond this initial phase of the assault, it was clear from the outset that the Wehrmacht’s problems would progressively multiply. If the Red Army escaped destruction on the Dnieper–Dvina river line, the Wehrmacht would not be able to engage in hot pursuit, because it would first need to replenish its supply bases closer to the front line. After that, all operations would ultimately depend on the capacity of the Soviet railway system and the speed with which the Wehrmacht could build up forward supply bases to support a second 500 kilometre advance.

...

Fundamentally, the Wehrmacht was a ‘poor army’.82 The fast-striking motorized element of the German army in 1941 consisted of only 33 divisions out of 130. Three-quarters of the German army continued to rely on more traditional means of traction: foot and horse. The German army in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with somewhere between 600,000 and 750,000 horses.83 The horses were not for riding. They were for moving guns, ammunition and supplies. Weeks prior to the invasion, 15,000 Panje carts were issued to the infantry units that would trail behind the fast-moving Panzers. The vast majority of Germany’s soldiers marched into Russia, as they had into France, on foot.

...

As we have seen, the fuel shortage by the end of 1941 was expected to be so severe that the Wehrmacht was seriously considering demotorization as a way of reducing its dependence on scarce oil.84 Everything therefore depended on the assumption that the Red Army would crack under the impact of the first decisive blow. It was hoped that, like the French, the Soviet forces would disintegrate, allowing them to be finished off in a series of encirclement battles.

...

Beneath the thick layer of hubris and optimism that surrounded the planning for Barbarossa, there were those in Berlin who expressed severe misgivings from the start. The doubts, interestingly, were of two kinds. There were at least some officers who questioned the feasibility of the operation itself. Significantly these included Field Marshal Fedor von Bock, commander of Army Group Centre, to whom fell the awesome task of crushing the main body of the Red Army en route to Moscow. By the end of January 1941, Bock was so concerned about the scale of the mission assigned to his army group that he forced Halder, the chief of army staff, to concede that there was a distinct possibility that the Red Army might escape beyond the Dnieper–Dvina line.91 What would happen in this eventuality was the key question. One of the earliest war games done to test the Barbarossa plan concluded that unless both the destruction of the Red Army and the capture of Moscow could be accomplished within a matter of months, Germany would face a ‘long-drawn-out war, beyond the capacity of the German armed forces to wage’.

I think I've made my point, but if you need more references I can provide them. I'd love to see literally any of yours.
 

rjohansen

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I kind of disagree and agree. I wan't to play WW2, so 1942, 1944 or even early 1945 would be great. Not much room then for the game to go crazy. However, most people like to start early, so it would make more sense to work on the historical choices leading up to WW2 from 1936 on.

As the game is now, with all the non-historical nonsense and implausible events, it would be great with a 1942, 44 or early 45 start. But ideally the game could become both historical and plausible. Far from it now, but who knows, maybe they will focus on plausibility and historical settings later on.

I bought the game because I wanted to play WW2, impossible at the moment, but with a later start, it would be at least some kind of solution.
 

AlanC9

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I recommend reading The Blitzkrieg Legend by Karl-Heinz Freiser. In short, the German army got very very lucky, and also managed to get inside the French OODA loop despite, again, Allied numerical and technical superiority. Had the French at literally any point simply attacked with reserves on hand rather than dawdling for at least two days beforehand, they'd have been able to either cut the Germans off or entirely prevent the crossing at Sedan. Hitler spent the entire invasion dead certain that his forces were walking into a trap and actually stopped the offensive just before Dunkirk so that the flanks could be reinforced to prevent a French attack from the south that never came (myths about the panzer forces needing a rest are not borne out by the documents or personal attestation of division commanders. If you're curious about the why, I have a book at home about French political failures from 1920 to 1940 that goes into exhaustive detail about the choices that went into their spectacular failure.

Does this represent a change in the consensus of historians? Back in the 80s -- the last time I really dove into this literature -- the consensus picture was that the French Army, as it actually existed in May 1940, was essentially doomed to defeat, either in months or in weeks. (Not enough category A divisions to hold the entire line, poor operational doctrines, etc.) An interesting corollary is that the Manstein plan might actually be worse for Germany long-term, since a Schlieffen plan repeat gives you a good chance of inflicting long-term damage on the British Army; Sealion would likely be off the table anyway, but you can perhaps wipe out a lot of the officer and NCO cadres.

Obviously, this would be a useful perspective to use if you're trying to develop a grand strategic WW2 game, since you can just bake this into the OOB and production rules for France rather than saddle the French player with idiocy rules.
 

Rustaveli

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The modern soviet tanks were numerous and barely penetrable by German tanks
In the western part of the USSR there were 8,407 serviceable tanks. (1 and 2 categories). Of these, 1396 are tanks of new types. (892 T-34 and 504 KV). The German army uses cumulative and sub-caliber projectiles to penetrate them.
And you're quoting Stalin from 31. You know what the difference was between 31 and 41? An enormous burst of industrialization and militarization in the USSR.
I know. By 1941, the gap from the Western countries (Germany) and USSR - decreased, but was not completely overcome.
That said, air power is hardly a decisive factor
The army is a single mechanism (as a human body). Aviation does not fight in isolation from ground forces. (The brain does not live in isolation from the heart).
This entirely misrepresents Soviet combat experience in the Polish Soviet War, the Civil War, the war with Finland, involvement in the Spanish Civil War and the numerous heavily mechanized clashes with Japan.
The Civil and Soviet-Polish wars are not modern.
Conflicts against Japan, Finland, in Spain - local. They do not give the experience of managing a large number of troops.
Soviet logistics was in far better shape than German at nearly every point in the conflict. I'm not sure how anyone could ever think otherwise given the mountain of evidence available.
Precisely because of the advantages in logistics, Germany managed in a shorter period of time to concentrate the superior army and start the plan of Barbarossa. (If the USSR tries to outpace Germany in deployment of army, she will start the war earlier, which is not beneficial for the Soviet government).
Automatic weapons aren't particularly critical when your doctrine relies on artillery support. The soviets could call on 50,000 guns from sizes of 45mm to 305mm in 1941. This utterly dwarfed the artillery available to the Germans.
And why did the German army advance? Probably she did not know about the superiority of the USSR.
Against the better soviet tanks - of which there were thousands, with more rolling off the production line every day - they were utterly useless.
As I mentioned above - the Germans used sub-caliber and cumulative shells.
And if active soviet forces not in the immediate invasion area we're included, the soviets pre-mobilization had a gigantic advantage in manpower.
The population of the USSR is 196 million people. The population of Germany (with 1941 borders) is 114 million people. The ratio of human resources is 1.7: 1. Together with the allies in the axis block: Romania (20 million), Hungary (9 million), Finland (4 million), Slovakia (1.6 million) - 148 million people. (I know that Finland was not officially part of the axis). This gives the pre-war ratio of human resources as 1.32: 1 in favor of the USSR. Germany knows this, so it uses the strategy of blitzkrieg. At the end of 1941, under the German occupation, there were 70 million Soviet people, but we managed to evacuate about 17 million people. 196-70 + 17 = 143. This was the number of human resources at the beginning of 1942. This gives the following ratio of human resources: 1.26: 1 - (USSR versus one Reich) and 1.03: 1 - (axis against the USSR). Minus the loss of the USSR for 1941 - 3 million minimum. Thus, the real number of the USSR's human resources at the beginning of 1942 is 140 million or less. If we consider the human resources of Europe and the occupied part of the USSR (an analog of the colonies), the superiority of the Axis countries will be overwhelming.

When Germany began a new offensive in the summer of 1942 - the maximum number of people (79 million) fell under the German occupation. This was one of the reasons for the appearance of the famous order No. 227, which explicitly states that the USSR no longer has superiority in human and agricultural resources over the enemy, so the Red Army must harden its resistance and keep the enemy from advancing to the east.

Do you see here superiority in human resources for the USSR?
In short, the German army got very very lucky, and also managed to get inside the French OODA
"Very lucky" is not a scientific explanation. He does not give an explanation of why the German army began the plan of Gelb (Initially losing, in your words). Suicides? Fools? No.
And while Hitler believed the soviets were bound to collapse, his general staff absolutely did not as recorded in Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction.
Heres a fun one from Tooze about the German army in the winter of 41.
In Russian I have not seen this book.
I'd love to see literally any of yours.
What sources do you need? (specifically). My information from different sources: books, films, analytical programs, discussions on the Internet.
 
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Claremont Waltz

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Does this represent a change in the consensus of historians? Back in the 80s -- the last time I really dove into this literature -- the consensus picture was that the French Army, as it actually existed in May 1940, was essentially doomed to defeat, either in months or in weeks. (Not enough category A divisions to hold the entire line, poor operational doctrines, etc.) An interesting corollary is that the Manstein plan might actually be worse for Germany long-term, since a Schlieffen plan repeat gives you a good chance of inflicting long-term damage on the British Army; Sealion would likely be off the table anyway, but you can perhaps wipe out a lot of the officer and NCO cadres.

Obviously, this would be a useful perspective to use if you're trying to develop a grand strategic WW2 game, since you can just bake this into the OOB and production rules for France rather than saddle the French player with idiocy rules.

Yes. Virtually everything from the 80s can be consigned to the dustbin.

Blitzkrieg Legend and Arming Against Hitler by Eugenia Kiesling will give you a good modern perspective on France (Robert Forczyk has an Amazon review of it under the name R. A. Forczyk which will give you a good survey of the material), and Tooze's Wages of Destruction will give you a great modern take on German economic and logistical constraints.
 

Claremont Waltz

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@Rustaveli

You're welcome to provide sources as I did, but I'm not bothering to deal with the mess of half truths, myth and nonsense you call a response until you do.

Edit: YouTube links and random forum posts will not be accepted as sources, just FYI.
 

amalric de g.

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WEW LAD. I encourage you to pick up a modern text on Operation Barbarossa, like Robert Forczyk's two volume on Tank Warfare on the eastern front. The modern soviet tanks were numerous and barely penetrable by German tanks. Where they failed was in tactical employment, with piecemeal unsupported attacks into prepared German positions.

And you're quoting Stalin from 31. You know what the difference was between 31 and 41? An enormous burst of industrialization and militarization in the USSR.



I'm more of a ground forces person, so I'll abandon the air portion. That said, air power is hardly a decisive factor and the soviets managed several brutally effective offensives despite being under enemy air superiority, as did the Germans later in the war.



I'll get to this later.



This entire section represents a thorough misunderstanding of the tactical and operational use of cavalry in the Polish and Soviet armies during the "interwar" and Second World War periods.

For example, Soviet forces lacked an indigenous infantry halftrack and did not consider it a priority. "mechanized" meant that a formation had tanks. The infantry associated was either truck, horse, or tank transported.

Horses could be and were used numerous times for cavalry charges - in a good number of cases with great success - but in most cases horse mounted troopers fought dismounted. They were very capable of bringing heavy weapons along with them, and were often more heavily armed than comparable infantry formations.

Again, they were more mobile in the sort of rough terrain and poor weather conditions they fought in than mechanized or motorized formations.



This entirely misrepresents Soviet combat experience in the Polish Soviet War, the Civil War, the war with Finland, involvement in the Spanish Civil War and the numerous heavily mechanized clashes with Japan.

It also betrays total ignorance of soviet operational thought. I encourage you to pick up something like Richard Harrison's book on doctrinal developments in Russia from 1904 to 1941.

The soviets had every understanding of mechanized warfare, they simply lacked competent commanders at basically every tier of command after a decade of ineptitude, incompetence and outright violence in personnel management by Stalin and his cronies. Had the soviet command echelons not been denuded of damn near anyone with experience leading formations larger than a company or battalion they would have performed far more ably.



Soviet logistics was in far better shape than German at nearly every point in the conflict. I'm not sure how anyone could ever think otherwise given the mountain of evidence available.

Automatic weapons aren't particularly critical when your doctrine relies on artillery support. The soviets could call on 50,000 guns from sizes of 45mm to 305mm in 1941. This utterly dwarfed the artillery available to the Germans.

Germany maintained that communications advantage throughout the war despite enduring a crushing defeat at the hands of soviet tactics and operational art which neither assumed nor required competence on the part of ground forces.

German anti tank guns were more available. They were also largely useless except against the (admittedly numerous) T26 and BT7. Against the better soviet tanks - of which there were thousands, with more rolling off the production line every day - they were utterly useless. Meanwhile soviet AT guns - when they weren't being completely misused - were devastatingly effective against German tanks. They also had large numbers of 76.2mm universal guns that could and did function perfectly well in AT and AA roles.



And if active soviet forces not in the immediate invasion area we're included, the soviets pre-mobilization had a gigantic advantage in manpower.



I recommend reading The Blitzkrieg Legend by Karl-Heinz Freiser. In short, the German army got very very lucky, and also managed to get inside the French OODA loop despite, again, Allied numerical and technical superiority. Had the French at literally any point simply attacked with reserves on hand rather than dawdling for at least two days beforehand, they'd have been able to either cut the Germans off or entirely prevent the crossing at Sedan. Hitler spent the entire invasion dead certain that his forces were walking into a trap and actually stopped the offensive just before Dunkirk so that the flanks could be reinforced to prevent a French attack from the south that never came (myths about the panzer forces needing a rest are not borne out by the documents or personal attestation of division commanders. If you're curious about the why, I have a book at home about French political failures from 1920 to 1940 that goes into exhaustive detail about the choices that went into their spectacular failure.



Most western analysts were almost as spectacularly misinformed about the soviet army as you appear to be.

And while Hitler believed the soviets were bound to collapse, his general staff absolutely did not as recorded in Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction.

Heres a fun one from Tooze about the German army in the winter of 41.



And another on Whermact planning for the invasion.



I think I've made my point, but if you need more references I can provide them. I'd love to see literally any of yours.

Numerous modern russian tanks is a bit spongy, in june 1941 the Sov had a total of 1000 T34 and 500 KV 2. Thats a whopping 5 % of the total Sovjet tank army.

The French at Sedan attacked the bridgehead 14 hours after reciving the order from Gamelin, thats not two days. What you miss is, if the french had immediately attacked the bridgehead, the french Reserves would run strait into the 10. Panzer Division and one mot. Division. I think you can imagine, what would happen to the french fighting uphill against two Divisions, 14 hours later only the reserve troops guarded the bridgehead and the french attack was mauled badly.

Also the myth, that if the french had stopped the germans at Sedan, germany had lost the war, is nonsense. The Wehrmacht crossed the river over a area of 130km width, Sedan was only one bridgehead. If the french army had reppeled the crossing at Sedan, the germans would drive north and cross the meuse there.


upload_2017-8-10_20-59-42.jpeg
 
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hkrommel

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I'm French, this is mostly wrong.

The French army had as many men as French generals expected. Morale was poor not because of communist subversion, much less because soldiers were about to mutiny. It was because the generals didn't allow the soldiers to fight the German, lest they retaliate and destroy private property (true story). Also because the nation was not prepared politically after several years of appeasement, and then the soldiers grew bored during months of phony war (while the German were training their own men).

Then the Allies entered Belgium while leaving only a second-grade troops to cover the Luxemburg area. When the German broke through, the troops just to the South were ordered to cover the Maginot line rather than counter-attacking. French generals also didn't imagine that civilians would clog the roads, nor that German planes would bomb their rear, and the resulting disorganisation caused the few tank divisions that could have made a difference to run out of oil.

But worst of all, the generals prepared for a repeat of WW1 and refused to consider anything that didn't fit, to the point they didn't support those in the armed forces who studied the tactics used by the German in Poland.

If it's bad luck, it's the sort of bad luck that makes the end exams to be about one of the subjects the student didn't study when he should have. All French historians agree that the German did the exact thing the French army wasn't prepared for, and that the immediate reaction was much worse than it could have been, but I don't know if any believes we could have beaten the German, even in a longer war.

Thanks for the info, I'll have to look into it more. I'm mostly drawing my impressions from books like Julian Jackson's The Fall of France: The Nazi Invasion of 1940 and Joel Blatt's The French Defeat of 1940: Reassessments. Those books indicate that the right wing generals and the left wing government were often at odds, and did not trust each other's decision-making. Weygand, for example, was more concerned with preventing a communist uprising than fighting the Germans because he feared that more! Rampant defeatism was a large part of what contributed to this as well. I'm curious as to your thoughts on the political aspect, as they seem to contradict what I've read. If you have sources in French I'll have to take your word for them though, as I can't speak French yet.

Conflicts against Japan, Finland, in Spain - local. They do not give the experience of managing a large number of troops.

The Winter War involved almost 1,000,000 Soviet troops against 340,000 Finns at its peak. How exactly does that not qualify as a large number of troops?
 
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inadequate at dealing with the T-34

I know your forum name is based on Rommel, but if my memory serves, Guderian held the T-34 in some esteem when he first got to inspect them during Barbarossa. Am I correct, or incorrectly remembering?