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Uncle_Joe

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For my money, the ALB campaign was the best in implementation but the tactical AI was very poor leading to less interesting games. And the blatant AI 'cheating' when it came to forces took the fun out it completely (ie a shattered and depleted battlegroup still started with more stuff than my full-strength BGs could muster).
 

integ3r

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I was actually explaining that as many people will complain about one type than about the other in the next game.
Hence, no, clearly there isn't an obvious "better" one ...
I like hybrid campaigns that exist in some games. For example Emperor: battle for dune. There is a campaign map, but there is also subplots and an overarching storyline throughout, with different territories having different events and story-elements tied to them. And territories will contain a short description on the campaign map like:
"We have a small base here."
"Atrocities have been reported by the Fremen in this region"
"We have troops in this area."
"The Sardukar are active here"
And Sardukar and Fremen are potential allies depending on player choice, triggering different cutscenes etc.
 
Last edited:

Claremont Waltz

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I was actually explaining that as many people will complain about one type than about the other in the next game.
Hence, no, clearly there isn't an obvious "better" one ...

Those people are like the occasional ignorant goombas who claim traditional British food is anything other than inedible shlock : utterly, completely, totally wrong and entirely without taste, knowledge or the good manners to hide such odious opinions.
 

Kampfkekskrieger

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What would I give for a dynamic campaign of Red dragon, with the now pretty cool SD AI, with a COOP Option from Airland battle, and some more scenarios for Red dragon (or Steel division or another game)!

I like the storyline campaign also very much! And I know that a really good dynamic campaign is a lot more difficult to set up, so it needs more time to ripe.

But luckily the eugens are saving up technologies, they did earlier, and improve it for the next generation with lesser effort then!
Steel division gets blessed a LOT by its former experiences with Wargame and Ruse etc, because with every new game, you can sum up a LOT of technology! This is why incremental payed 'updates' by purchasing this different games, sum up in a total result, that becomes larger with every game, even though the developement time stays roughly at 1 year.

BTW: I will CURSE EA games for making the world conquest mode of Kanes Wrath NOT for multiplayer! ALONE THIS FEATURE WHY DID THEY NOT SEE THAT THIS WOULD HAVE saved their whole failed games they did after? Just a slight update!

Sometimes I just dont know why so small but vital improvements are just missing, even though doable VERY easyly!

The people would PAY for!

I think many people would like to see both the storyline and also the dynamic (scenario or also endless-) campaign, they would even complement each other, for a more expensive price! :) :cool:
 

naizarak

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the overwhelming criticism of ALB + RD single player is that the skirmish AI was terrible. many people, myself included, wanted a return to the scripted missions of EE for this reason, not because of anything inherently wrong with a dynamic campaign. the SD AI would've made those campaigns a success (especially ALB's with the strategic events and coop), but instead we got 3 glorified scenario packs with no replayability. again devs fail to understand basic problems
 

Kampfkekskrieger

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Hilfe für Heerführer.jpg

(But dont forget for 1 thing the other 10 things rest!)
:)
(We all like you!)
 

iamthatiam

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"Tactical" & "Strategical" AI are two different things, completely unrelated.

Regarding the "dynamic" vs "storyline" campaign, we have yet to do a game without half the community claiming the other type is better ... :(
This is why you as devs needs to make the game you want to make. You will never please everyone. I'm hoping you learnt this lesson from the Act of Aggression Reboot edition shamozzle!
 

Kampfkekskrieger

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This is why you as devs needs to make the game you want to make.

Take the Story from Act of war...
... with the nice actors from your Making of videos, orchestrate it a bit as a briefing and command central action between the missions...
...take the veterancy system from European escalation, where the player can choose the veterancy of his people!...
... add to it the coop campaign from Airland Battle, improved with the AI from Steel Division...
... Add The naval sector from High Treason to Red dragon to complete it...
... add the bigness of Red dragon, the beginner friendliness of R.U.S.E,
the depth of Steel Division...

And give me just one big game with it in 10 years! (And path your way with the games inbetween you need in order to reach this!) :)

Edit: Oh, and ... I forgot ... the resouce system and most important the cartel faction and perma stealth tanks from act of aggression!
 

Zinegata

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Regarding the "dynamic" vs "storyline" campaign, we have yet to do a game without half the community claiming the other type is better ... :(

I would suggest, as heretical as it may sound, that this is an area where you need to actually ignore the community, take a step back, and figure out what's best for the game based on what other games do in order to become successful.

Single-player campaigns of very successful games RTS games tend to focus on one of two things - either they exist to teach players basic game mechanics and ease them into the multiplayer scene, or they are a standalone experience distinct from multiplayer with a very strong narrative - with the narrative being either a very compelling fixed narrative or a very engaging dynamic one.

The original Starcraft (pre-Brood War) for instance was very much a "training" campaign for multiplayer. Each mission gradually introduced new units, and there was very minimal "scripting" or use of units / mechanics that weren't applicable to multiplayer. There was a very memorable storyline of course, but the core of the campaign was really all about introducing new units to ease you into playing the three different races.

Brood War, by contrast, was much less a "teaching" campaign (it expected you to know how to play each race) and much more of a narrative campaign, and despite its fixed and linear nature it was very compelling because it explored the campaign from the perspective of the "bad guy" (Kerrigan) which was at the time pretty ground-breaking for an RTS and videogames in general.

Starcraft 2 - but most especially Wings of Liberty - was meanwhile a great example of a dynamic campaign with many branching decisions and paths; even though much of the stuff you can use in the campaign aren't even available in multiplayer (albeit one could argue that's one reason why it didn't do quite as well as Blizzard was expecting which is why they're now going back to make Starcraft Remastered).

In the case of Eugen, I frankly feel that the problem is that the single-player experience always tended to feel as more of an afterthought.

The dynamic campaigns in Wargame for instance frankly tended to be just a series of skirmish battles stringed together. It is not really trying to be either a teaching tool for multiplayer; as it tends to drop you off the deep end similar to skirmishes against the AI. The narrative also tends to be weak, especially in the dynamic campaign, as it's a bit too focused on equipment and unit designations similar to the later (and increasingly sterile) tech thrillers and Tom Clancy novels. People tend to not be excited by names like 3rd Shock Army. What they want is people with names, motivations, and fears; like say Bannon from World in Conflict who brought that game's truly strong emotional note.

Steel Division's single-player campaign unfortunately borrows much more from its Wargame ancestry than other RTSs with strong narratives. Commanding scattered units of 101st while the rest of the map simulates the breakout of the forces which landed at Utah is interesting and at first exciting, especially for those who are already familiar with the subject and are big fans of Normandy games. Side-missions help lessen the monotony of killing waves of enemy AI units.

But it's not just a compelling single-player experience. It doesn't hold and grab you - and the need to keep playing to push the story forward consequently isn't there.

And while I've mentioned AI issues (which leads to rather boring skirmish games that don't translate well into teaching people how to do multiplayer), I have to say that the much bigger problem of the campaign is that it was simply too sterile. It wasn't a narrative at all, just a series of places and combat units that moved and fought through them.

Which was something of a shame because Normandy had always been one of the better-documented campaigns of the war and extensive narratives have been written about its participants. From the young soldiers of Hitlerjugend to the paratroopers of the 101st, the Normandy campaign was full of stories about the people who experienced the war and participated in one of its most important and in many ways most epic of campaigns. It was the failure to capture this human essence of the campaign - far more than any debate about dynamic versus fixed campaigns - that was the core issue of the single player experience.
 

D Inqu

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Again this really falls down to what people want from the game: a story-focused experience, focusing on people. Or perhaps a Total War experience with lots of replayability and customisation. Or some mix of both, with you commanding just one specific unit throughout the whole campaign, influencing the outcome of the fight but not in full control of every battle (bring together the best of both).

Unfortunately, Steel Division's campaign was neither.
 

Think Tanker

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Take the Story from Act of war...
... with the nice actors from your Making of videos, orchestrate it a bit as a briefing and command central action between the missions...
...take the veterancy system from European escalation, where the player can choose the veterancy of his people!...
... add to it the coop campaign from Airland Battle, improved with the AI from Steel Division...
... Add The naval sector from High Treason to Red dragon to complete it...
... add the bigness of Red dragon, the beginner friendliness of R.U.S.E,
the depth of Steel Division...

And give me just one big game with it in 10 years! (And path your way with the games inbetween you need in order to reach this!) :)

Edit: Oh, and ... I forgot ... the resouce system and most important the cartel faction and perma stealth tanks from act of aggression!
You lost me at the end there...

Furthermore, this is absolutely a case of easier said than done, as everyone in the world has their own ingenious idea of how to solve all the issues in these titles, and yet, with so many varying opinions the likelihood of anything productive coming from these conversations is unlikely. Personally, I think Steel Division is the closest to combining the best elements of all of Eugen's previous titles thus far, and I think the primary things that are holding it down is soft aspects of the game, parts that can be fixed, tweaked, and alleviated through patches and Eugen's Free DLC policy.
 

Ashleighs

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I mentioned this somewhere else but some of these posts are really interesting and as someone sort of new to Eugen i thought id give my perspective.

Iv been enjoying the campaign. But the learning curve for someone new is very steep. The tutorials are very good (watched them on youtube) and are great at easing people in, but then the difficulty jumps very quickly. An easy campain that was smaller scale. and then maybe an adjustment of the difficulty of later campaigns would help keep people in.

Dynamic campaigns are really nice for replayability. Its a tough choice between the two. Maybe having both is really the best option. A dynamic campaign and scenario sets.

A few people have mentioned free DLC. Is Eugen good with that usually? I can see this game doing well if its pushed a bit more by paradox. And if Eugen find that magic ingredient that makes people stick.

I think thats got a lot to do with the difficulty curve personally but i might be wrong. Just thinking aloud. :)
 

Kampfkekskrieger

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Mar 1, 2017
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I am looking for a way to guide the people into wargame and steel division since my guide for AoA, and I was looking for uniting both game+players even before.

But what I have seen, which is a quality I dont want to go, is to follow my leadership of what tactics, information or unit details I could give them, because you shall not follow theese instructions, but only use them at yout own volunteering, if YOU think that you want to use them for help for a while.

Thats not a strange attitude from me, but the people have a significant difference between following the game mechanics to use it as effectively as they can, and in contrast to that: That YOU play your own game with a set of tools, a game which is actually only the sandbox but YOU invent the game.

If you just read my knowledge, you just live from it a while, but you shall become strong on your own impulse.
So YOU are the leader and YOU must ask for help, and we obey you. But we dont command you without your permission.

Its the core thing about commanding, and teaching all the other stuff helps, there are enough other people to make wikis and unit guides later, maybe they ask me, not sure if I want to do this.

Instead, if I dont have to make emergency repairs, I prefer to give them the CORE, from which they can do everything alone and without me.

The Core is souvereignity, to think and act without the help of anybody else. Without borders and restrictions.
This gives much MORE interesting games than following and perfectioning a streamlined - way of executing - that is to obey and follow.
Some people think this is trivial or the dumbest thing in the world.

But teaching them to fish, without a constraining dependency through the backdoor, or a condition (you can only win if you do this and that...) is both for me and for you easier and better.

You become a champ in 1 year if you release (let go) the duty to follow someones example, because you win much easier with only YOUR power.