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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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WHY should it be possible?
WHY should it be extremely difficult?
WHY should it take until 1940 to actually start goign to war.

What is YOUR strategy then as Turkey then?

If -you- are so confident and cocky in yourself that you think that Turkey can still do this, then how about you and I try it out in a MP. Me as Germany and you as Turkey. Since I must be terrible at this game, surely you can defeat me right?

Allow me to just skip what's going to happen for you so you don't have to waste many hours in a MP match.

I will have defeated UK and France and annexed all their land. I will have either taken on Italy or the USA and removed one or the other from the game. I will have well over 200 civilian factories and military factories around that time while you will be stuck with a quarter of what I have. I will have well over 2 or 3 million manpower in reserve while you will be stuck with lets be generous and say 500,000. You will only have about three armies of 7-2 infantry and im being generous as I dont think you'll have that. I will have five armies of 40W infantry and a full army of mediums and light tanks to smash your lines. I will naval invade you throughout yoru lands, from the black sea and from the med. You will last a while for sure, but eventually, I will breakthrough with my tanks and overrun you. I give it a year. I could even just starve you of your guns and equipment. I wouldn't care that I am taking more losses as I have plenty in reserve just to defeat you.
I have no idea where that came from.

I haven't had a chance to really dig into the expansion yet and try different strategies, so I'm not sure what would I do as Turkey to beat AI Germany. And yes, so far it seems almost impossible to me, I really have no idea. And I think it's great balancing from the devs.

Similarly, I have no idea how to beat USA as El Salvador. But what would your response be if someone says "PDX buff El Salvador, I can't beat USA with it"?
 
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I have no idea where that came from.

I haven't had a chance to really dig into the expansion yet and try different strategies, so I'm not sure what would I do as Turkey to beat AI Germany. And yes, so far it seems almost impossible to me, I really have no idea. And I think it's great balancing from the devs.

Similarly, I have no idea how to beat USA as El Salvador. But what would your response be if someone says "PDX buff El Salvador, I can't beat USA with it"?
Then what is the friggin point of adding focus trees to minors then if we're just going to make them absoltuely useless because HISTORY!

And yea, El Salvador SHOULD get a buff if it ever receives a focus tree.

A focus tree should increase the countries playability and fun, but Turkeys tree is the complete oppsoite. If you are going to play Turkey, you would rather play with the basic tree. That is piss poor design.

The amount of time it takes to get to anything of substance with the Turkey tree is terrible. I am not asking for Turkey to be uberpowerful from the start, but it needs some sort of chance to get more powerful with wargoals and better focuses. As it is, it takes way too long to do anything.
 
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It's really amazing how inconsistent a lot of the complaining about the focus trees are on this forum.

February: "These focus trees are terrible! You just click button, magically flip ideology, and go to war! Awful!"

October: "These focus trees are terrible! You have to spend time going through a transition rather than just magically flipping ideology overnight and going to war! Awful!"

Get your stories straight, you cannot have it both ways.



That has nothing to do with it.

This is a LTP issue.

A good example of this is how you and others have cited ISP as "proof" that it is too hard. I like ISP and I like his content, but let's be real. ISP draws a line with infantry, draws an offensive line, and hits execute. He lets the game play itself for him to a large degree, and that's what's part of what's funny, that the game is so easy oftentimes you don't even have to have much real involvement with it to even succeed.

A situation that requires more than just spamming infantry and letting the game play itself for you? Say it ain't so, hoss, say it ain't so!

I have honestly never encountered a situation where the AI could break through my lines while having six 20w infantry per frontline tile. The issue isn't that Turkey can't beat Germany, it can. You have for all intents and purposes infinite chromium, I was able to get 60+ oil within my own borders by the end of 1940, Turkey's amount of steel has gone through the roof, and I was able to get 14 military factories and 21 infrastructure from one 70 day focus. If that isn't the most powerful industrial focus in the game, I don't know what is.

Make divisions with motorized or mechanized and heavy self propelled artillery. The AI is utterly helpless against those. When you stack soft attack like that, they have no counter. The AI doesn't know how to use their own armor, and the only hard counter to something like that is divisions with tank destroyers, which even if the AI actually did make, it couldn't use properly.

If you can't beat Germany as Turkey, that's a LTP issue. Doesn't really matter whether you're going Ottoman or not, it seems like non-Ottoman turkey is stronger with its access to tons of free industry, but Ottomans can get more cores in the short term.

If you want an easier Turkey game, you can set the game rule to have German restore the Kaiserreich and Hungary to form AH. It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with your choices and ability to play the game.

The complaint about peace conferences is entirely valid. That's a long standing issue with the game and we should keep pressing on it until some changes are made with war goals, claims, and cores being respected where it doesn't conflict with another co-belligerents CB/claims/cores barring serious incongruencies in occupation and participation.

A bit of history for others: when the resistance mechanics were announced, TalyonUngol spammed the forum endlessly with posts complaining that this would make a world conquest as Italy impossible. He continually spammed the forum with this until the moderators did something about it.

And as it turned out, it was an entirely baseless complaint. The new resistance and compliance system made it easier to do world conquests, not harder. After the release of LR, he went totally silent and has never mentioned how his over-the-top ranting on the subject was totally wrong. This is just more of the same.
And if you are so good, then lets find out. My germany vs your turkey. After all, you must be a god considering what you say. You should easily be able to defeat me as your turkey. If its doable against the AI, it must be doable against a player. The devs wouldn't put in a tree thats unplayable right? So come on, you and me. We can settle this L2P issue right now.

You talk alot of smack but you never back it up.

And now you're getting personal with our past? Really? You have no arguement and now you come for personal attacks?

A shame.

But fine, lets get into the past. You are right, I did say that resistance mechanics were terrible and they still are. I never said world conquest as Italy specifically. I was talking about world conquest for minors and how this affects minor nations more than it affects majors and I was ABSOLUTELY right. It was not made easier nor would anyone say it was. Once again, you bring nothing to this discussion.
 
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I have no idea where that came from.

I haven't had a chance to really dig into the expansion yet and try different strategies, so I'm not sure what would I do as Turkey to beat AI Germany. And yes, so far it seems almost impossible to me, I really have no idea. And I think it's great balancing from the devs.

Similarly, I have no idea how to beat USA as El Salvador. But what would your response be if someone says "PDX buff El Salvador, I can't beat USA with it"?
El salvador can't beat USA just the same way as German Reich couldn't beat U.S.S.R and Allies in reality ; as they were destined to lose the war horribly the moment they declared war on Poland. So just because Germany can do a WC by 1942 in game, Should paradox nerf them into oblivion just to please the "Historical accuracy" Gang?
 
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El salvador can't beat USA just the same way as German Reich couldn't beat U.S.S.R and Allies in reality ; as they were destined to lose the war horribly the moment they declared war on Poland. So just because Germany can do a WC by 1942 in game, Should paradox nerf them into oblivion just to please the "Historical accuracy" Gang?
Yes. They should. We should rename this game, Allies Win 2.0. Make it a true simulator. No more focus trees. No more creating units. You cant even paly the game. We're going to have the game just become a just watch simulator. You can't click pause cause its not historical to do that. You literally have to sit there and watch as the AI makes WW2 happen again with no deviation.


Yes, that is heavy sarcasm. We should not have to bend over for the vocal minority that is the Historical Accuracy gang. And yes, t hey are the minority as proven by the devs. They are also the people who want to take away from the alt-history side while the other side doesn't even try to remove historical. Most of the time, we're happy with historical things being added as it doesn't affect us!

Any sort of criticsm that we give the devs about their alt-history choices and how it works in a UNHISTORICAL SCENARIO, is quickly disagreed spammed by the forum community and we're bashed and told to L2P.
 
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And if you are so good, then lets find out. My germany vs your turkey. After all, you must be a god considering what you say. You should easily be able to defeat me as your turkey. If its doable against the AI, it must be doable against a player. The devs wouldn't put in a tree thats unplayable right? So come on, you and me. We can settle this L2P issue right now.

You talk alot of smack but you never back it up.

And now you're getting personal with our past? Really? You have no arguement and now you come for personal attacks?

A shame.
It is doable against the AI, simply because a player will operate very differently from how an AI will.

It being impossible against a player doesn't mean it is against an AI. The AI isn't that good at HoI4, to be able to hold up like that, the argument you're making here is nonsensical from start to finish.
 
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It is doable against the AI, simple because a player will operate very differently from how an AI will.

It being impossible against a player doesn't mean it is against an AI. The AI isn't that good at HoI4, to be able to hold up like that, the argument you're making here is nonsensical from start to finish.
Actually no, In the current state its not doable. Peace conference alone prevents it from being doable. Not to mention, you do not have the factories nor the manpower to support this.
 
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Yes. They should. We should rename this game, Allies Win 2.0. Make it a true simulator. No more focus trees. No more creating units. You cant even paly the game. We're going to have the game just become a just watch simulator. You can't click pause cause its not historical to do that. You literally have to sit there and watch as the AI makes WW2 happen again with no deviation.


Yes, that is heavy sarcasm. We should not have to bend over for the vocal minority that is the Historical Accuracy gang. And yes, t hey are the minority as proven by the devs. They are also the people who want to take away from the alt-history side while the other side doesn't even try to remove historical. Most of the time, we're happy with historical things being added as it doesn't affect us!

Any sort of criticsm that we give the devs about their alt-history choices and how it works in a UNHISTORICAL SCENARIO, is quickly disagreed spammed by the forum community and we're bashed and told to L2P.
I 100% agree with all the points you make. After all we are playing a videogame, not watching a documentary about WW2. Videogames are supposed to be dumb, fun and unrealistic.

And to anyone who wants "Historical Accuracy", my suggestion to you is go watch a documentary, go study a book, go and conduct an interview with war veterans. I dunno just do whatever you please; just don't expect a video game to be realistic because they are not supposed to be. Saying that Turkey shouldn't be able to stand against German military because " In reality they were a divided nation and didn't have the industry to do so" is dumb, ignorant of other people's preferences and counter-intuitive.
 
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I 100% agree with all the points you make. After all we are playing a videogame, not watching a documentary about WW2. Videogames are supposed to be dumb, fun and unrealistic.

And to anyone who wants "Historical Accuracy", my suggestion to you is go watch a documentary, go study a book, go and conduct an interview with war veterans. I dunno just do whatever you please; just don't expect a video game to be realistic because they are not supposed to be. Saying that Turkey shouldn't be able to stand against German military because " In reality they were a divided nation and didn't have the industry to do so" is dumb, ignorant of other people's preferences and counter-intuitive.
I will disagree with you here. I do not want this game to only be an alt-historical fantasy game. I would like it so there is historical accuracy to it to a point that it doesn't affect the alt-history side. I am absolutely 100% okay with new events, historys, decisions and everything to support this. Continuation war, Italy surrendering/civil war when they get naval invaded, pearl harbor being more significant, UK and USA actually lend leasing the soviets to give them a better chance against the Germans.

I want more historical things for the world at a whole, but there isn't any real reason why Turkey has to be historically terrible. it doesn't really affect all that much if it becomes strong because again, its the alt-historcal side of the game. If you choose the historical AI options it wont affect you if Turkey gets a stronger alt-history tree.
 
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It is doable against the AI, simply because a player will operate very differently from how an AI will.

It being impossible against a player doesn't mean it is against an AI. The AI isn't that good at HoI4, to be able to hold up like that, the argument you're making here is nonsensical from start to finish.
By the time you get your first war goal and are allowed to go to wars which is around 1941, Luftwaffe has around 6-7k planes and Germany around 400 divisions, RAF has around 7 or 8k planes and UK around 200 divisions. Good luck beating AI-operated Germany with your 400 shitty, interwar fighters and 48 divisions of 7-2s.
 

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I will disagree with you here. I do not want this game to only be an alt-historical fantasy game. I would like it so there is historical accuracy to it to a point that it doesn't affect the alt-history side. I am absolutely 100% okay with new events, historys, decisions and everything to support this. Continuation war, Italy surrendering/civil war when they get naval invaded, pearl harbor being more significant, UK and USA actually lend leasing the soviets to give them a better chance against the Germans.

I want more historical things for the world at a whole, but there isn't any real reason why Turkey has to be historically terrible. it doesn't really affect all that much if it becomes strong because again, its the alt-historcal side of the game. If you choose the historical AI options it wont affect you if Turkey gets a stronger alt-history tree.
I have no problems with historical side of things either. But I don't understand why Turkey or Greece shouldn't be allowed to annex a country or 2 before WW2 kicks off.
 

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By the time you get your first war goal and are allowed to go to wars which is around 1941, Luftwaffe has around 6-7k planes and Germany around 400 divisions, RAF has around 7 or 8k planes and UK around 200 divisions. Good luck beating AI-operated Germany with your 400 shitty, interwar fighters and 48 divisions of 7-2s.
And here we get into the core of a L2P issue. Stop using 7/2s for infantry and expecting them to be successful offensively, That hasn't been the meta for years now, since before 1.5 at least. 10/0s are both cheaper to produce, and does the job you want 20 width infantry for. If you need an infantry division to attack with, those should be 40 width. Turkey also has an abundance of chromium, enabling it to create a couple of heavy tank divisons to push with.

Similarly, if you don't have the industry to compete in the air with fighters, the option isn't to still try and fail, but to stick more AA into your templates. It counteracts the effects of fighting in enemy air superiority, and will absolutely shred any stockpiles of CAS the enemy may have.
 
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Aeroclub

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And yea, El Salvador SHOULD get a buff if it ever receives a focus tree.
So unique focus tree should just be about buffing minor nations?

El salvador can't beat USA just the same way as German Reich couldn't beat U.S.S.R and Allies in reality ; as they were destined to lose the war horribly the moment they declared war on Poland. So just because Germany can do a WC by 1942 in game, Should paradox nerf them into oblivion just to please the "Historical accuracy" Gang?
Equating El Salvador's chances against the US to those of Germany against the USSR is pretty much the end of constructive discussion. Because the only retort here would be for me to say that if you want all the nations to be the same and equally strong, go play chess or any other game where everybody starts in the same situation with the same tools. A game about WW2 where some nations as stronger than the others is just not that kind of game.
 
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hamze2011

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And here we get into the core of a L2P issue. Stop using 7/2s for infantry and expecting them to be successful offensively, That hasn't been the meta for years now, since before 1.5 at least. 10/0s are both cheaper to produce, and does the job you want 20 width infantry for. If you need an infantry division to attack with, those should be 40 width.

Similarly, if you don't have the industry to compete in the air with fighters, the option isn't to still try and fail, but to stick more AA into your templates. It counteracts the effects of fighting in enemy air superiority, and will absolutely shred any stockpiles of CAS the enemy may have.
I know they aren't the meta and I don't use them too. Even 40w Infantry like you mentioned sucks ass on the offensive. The only good template to use on the offensive are 40w tanks, which Turkey doesn't have the industry nor the resources to produce. Also, AA isn't something that magically negates all of your enemy's air superiority. It helps, sure ; but Germany's divisions will literally overrun you when they have an airforce 20x bigger than yours.
 

TalyonUngol

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So unique focus tree should just be about buffing minor nations?



Equating El Salvador's chances against the US to those of Germany against the USSR is pretty much the end of constructive discussion. Because the only retort here would be for me to say that if you want all the nations to be the same and equally strong, go play chess or any other game where everybody starts in the same situation with the same tools. A game about WW2 where some nations as stronger than the others is just not that kind of game.
Uh? Why would you give focus trees if you aren't going to make them better to play? once again in the current state... Turkeys tree sucks in comparison to the basic tree. Its just facts.
 
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Vin55

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It is not about buffing them, but to have a resonable balance between historic (as it happend) and fun (what you can do as human input). Right now you can not do anything partly because of how some game mechanic work. (Endless War when Britain is out because US would fight then^^)

The historic part for most parts is good now (Any idea why on historic axis will not attack jungoslawia before barbarossa?) And the ai is just braindead when defending the atlantic wall (which they dont). The allies win by default now as they finaly do it but Japan who loses in CHina (like every other game) can take all of Indoneasia Malaysia, India and Australia (Lol).

I would make it so that as fascist Turkey (agressive or alt history Ottoman) you can get some goals in early to mid 38 giving you 1 and a half years of growth which is fine as you might get to over 10 mils which is not that many but right now you get nothing till 1940 or you can kill Iraq and Iran...
 
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So unique focus tree should just be about buffing minor nations?



Equating El Salvador's chances against the US to those of Germany against the USSR is pretty much the end of constructive discussion. Because the only retort here would be for me to say that if you want all the nations to be the same and equally strong, go play chess or any other game where everybody starts in the same situation with the same tools. A game about WW2 where some nations as stronger than the others is just not that kind of game.
Of course Germany wasn't able to touch UK or USA soil in reality. Are you kidding? Germany didn't have the navy or fuel to cross the English channel or Atlantic ocean. The idea of Germany being able to invade UK or USA in reality would be so ludicrous that even Germany's High Command were opposed to commencing the Sealion. So just because in reality the Sealion was absolutely impossible, Germany shouldn't be able to do it in the game too? If that's what you think, then I dunno what to say.
 
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Of course Germany wasn't able to touch UK or USA soil in reality. Are you kidding? Germany didn't have the navy or fuel to cross the English channel or Atlantic ocean. The idea of Germany being able to invade UK or USA in reality would be so ludicrous that even Germany's High Command were opposed to commencing the Sealion. So just because in reality the Sealion was absolutely impossible, Germany shouldn't be able to do it in the game too? If that's what you think, then I dunno what to say.
Sealion was possible if German war effort whent only in that direction. Not in 1940 but if the Italians had actually not messed up their fleet day one it would have been a possiblity. US ofc not. But Channel is not that war as seen with DDay. I would say very unlikley but possible.
 

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Uh? Why would you give focus trees if you aren't going to make them better to play? once again in the current state... Turkeys tree sucks in comparison to the basic tree. Its just facts.
A nation is only better to play if its stronger? Well, I guess herein lies the root of our disagreement. For me and a lot of others here, a nation is better to play if it's deeper and more challenging; and yes, that requires weaker nations staying weak.

I suggest we leave it at that.
 
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Sealion was possible if German war effort whent only in that direction. Not in 1940 but if the Italians had actually not messed up their fleet day one it would have been a possiblity. US ofc not. But Channel is not that war as seen with DDay. I would say very unlikley but possible.
Maybe the landing was possible, which is quite unlikely, but even if they landed on British isles, the British would fight Germans tooth and nail.

Also the supply routes would be horrible and abysmal ; while the British were fighting in their homeland and had none of Germany's problems. So actually the idea of the Germans defeating UK and making them surrender is pretty much unrealistic. Even if by some miracle the Germans prevailed and made UK surrender, Winston Churchil and the UK government would continue the fight and would never surrender the way they do in the game
 
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