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Tem_Probe

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Power
Issuing a declaration of war against another human (1 point)
Share of Manpower(?)
Share of Fleet(0)
Writing an AAR (+1 point)

Prestige

Owning CoTs (4)
Owning European provinces (52)
Owning colonial provinces (9.25)
Share of Income(?)
Existing! (+10)
Increasing your income (+4)
Guaranteeing the independence of another human nation(+5: BB)
Losing a war (-2)
Writing an AAR (+2)
 

Tem_Probe

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Daniel A said:
IMO A) should be entirely skipped or at least severly toned down compared to B). B) mostly reflects skill, A) mostly reflects what your starting nation was.

--------

The same reasoning could be applied to size of MP, army and fleet. Reward increases, not size itself.

I disagree, in large part because A can fluctuate wildly due to warfare for example, and also because it heavily depends on the player skill. One example? Pibe's Sweden, who makes 150 ducats/month in 1600. How many players can say that? Also, Drake's England at 325 income shows his skill vastly. An average Eng would be at 150-200 here. Does this mean some nations have advantage? Sure, but then again, that's the bread and butter of EU2. I can be expected to have a MP lead, as can Ottomans, and Spain can be expected to have an income lead. That's life in EU2. And its all well too. Prestige rewards only make sense according to the size of the empire. A small nation like you getting say 40 is a big deal if a nation five times your size and power gets 75. I kind of trust the way the system is built now.
 
Oct 22, 2001
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Now I will try to compute my PP for yesterday.

But first an error: under losing prestige points the last item listed is "writing an AAR +2". That one shoud be under "gaining" prestige points.

--------------

POWER POINTS

1 saved from last session.
Prolly nothing from MP army or fleets.
Writing an AAR +1.

Total 2p. I increase the MP by 1 in the province of Brandenburg.
Left: 0p


PRESTIGE

9 saved from last session because of failed conversion in Podlasia.

Owning 10 European provinces = 10p.
?p for percentage of income
Existing = 10p
Increasing income with over 40% = 4p
Guaranteeing the independence = 30p

Regarding the last item I am sure of the following guarantees
1. ENG
2. SWE
3. RUS
4. FRA twice

But I am unsure about Austria. I think I guaranteed them but I am not 100% sure. I may have done it while KJ was away (since that lessened the risk he would be attacked - yes I am a rule "abuser" and have always been, not that I would call it abuse but I know other people do). Strangely enough when I made my guarantees I could not see it in my own game log. And besides the two guarantees of our host FRA one cannot see the guarantees of any other nation in our official game log on the Russian site. Further more according to the tool tip the guarantee is valid 5 years. But the option was greyed for at least 10 years I think. Thus I believe that we should be bound by our guarantee for 10 years as well or better: as long as the option is greyed in the diplo screen (while in peace with that nation, perhaps it gets greyed when you get into war with him).

Writing an AAR (+2 points)

In toto: 65 prestige points known (plus ? for size of economy).
The 65 are used like this

I claim cores on Anhalt, Bremen, Sachsen, Wurzburg and Oldenburg = 25p.

I increase tax by 1 in each one of my provinces 10 * 3 = 30p.

Then I increase it once more in Brandenburg and Mecklenburg. = 2*3 =6p.

I ask for immigration in Magdeburg = 3p.

25+30+6+3=64p.

I save the last point (plus the points for size of economy)!
 
Oct 22, 2001
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Tem_Probe said:
I disagree, in large part because A can fluctuate wildly due to warfare for example, and also because it heavily depends on the player skill. One example? Pibe's Sweden, who makes 150 ducats/month in 1600. How many players can say that? Also, Drake's England at 325 income shows his skill vastly. An average Eng would be at 150-200 here. Does this mean some nations have advantage? Sure, but then again, that's the bread and butter of EU2. I can be expected to have a MP lead, as can Ottomans, and Spain can be expected to have an income lead. That's life in EU2. And its all well too. Prestige rewards only make sense according to the size of the empire. A small nation like you getting say 40 is a big deal if a nation five times your size and power gets 75. I kind of trust the way the system is built now.
¨

Temu! The skilled player will get his just reward for the increase of his income. There is no need to give him a reward just because he started as a big nation.

If Pibe has done tremendously well in increasing his income: well then he should be rewarded for exactly that: for increasing the income. I agree 100% with you that he should be rewarded for that :) And this my proposed system does to 100% while the present system in use does not.

If you believe it is unjust to Pibe to change the system in the middle of the game because he has already reached such a level from which it is difficult to increase the income with the same speed: well then still change the system but give Pibe some kind of reward. That's fine with me. The important thing is that we improve the system used for the remaining playing time. There are a lot of rewards still to be handed out.

But to continue for 200 years rewarding nations just because they were big from start is not only bad, it is plain stupid. :mad: You should reward good gaming. :) The basic parts of the present system reminds us of the bad parts of the official VP system. :eek:o

Besides: if the economy shrinks the player should lose points. And a minus saldo should be saved into the next session. I believe that will take care of your concerns on that matter. :)
 
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When I read that Temu got 52 prestige points for owning provinces it reminded me that I forgot that one as well. That reward should of course also be one measured in increase in percentage (or absolute number) rather than rewarding big nations.

It would be interesting to hear what Ryoken has to say about this.
 

Zeitgeist

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While I certainly appreciate comments and discussion about the system, I'd like to say a couple things.

The larger prestige and power income of larger nations is absolutely intentional. Yes, as a small country you will not get as much prestige as a larger country. But then again, as a small country, you don't have relatively as much land to improve. The intention was to keep the percentages of improvement roughly the same. Small countries also benefit significantly more from manufactories, etc, and the larger percentage of their prestige income that they must pay reflects this. Brandenburg is virtually always dependent on some goodwill from her neighbors at this point in time, regardless of the player, and this is no exception.

And what Ryoken has to say is largely irrelevant. While he did give me the idea for it, he took it even further, and no province improvements whatsoever were to be permitted at all. I shied away from this partly because there was already enough to edit ;) and also because I felt it was too forced.

I'm also thinking of changing the rules (which will apply after this session) about guarantees. While they aren't used in game, it seems that they're being used frequently as just a way to milk prestige. I might make it mandatory to honor your commitment, regardless of being asked or not. That would make it more of a gamble than it is presently. But if you spent money on it this session I'll still give you your points, but the intention was not just to have everyone spam guarantees, but have it be a tool to discourage attacks on nations and also cause the occasional war.
 

Dago

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OTTOMAN EMPIRE 1570-1600

June 5, 1570 : Russia declared war upon Ottoman Empire

December 16, 1574 : Murâd III rose to the throne in Ottoman Empire

March 2, 1578 : Spain accepted peace with Ottoman Empire on the following terms : Spain pays 150$ in indemnities. Apulia , Emilia , Messina to & Sicily to Ottoman Empire

August 29, 1578 : Ottoman Empire went with Seek reconciliation in Turko-Persian Conflicts: Murad III's campaigns

January 11, 1579 : Russia accepted peace with Ottoman Empire on the following terms : Russia pays 150$ in indemnities

February 2, 1585 : Austria declared war upon Ottoman Empire

April 8, 1587 : Ottoman Empire accepted peace with Austria on the following terms : Moldova to Austria & Emilia to Austria

June 2, 1588 : Ottoman Empire joined the war on the same side as Aden in their war against Oman

May 20, 1590 : Ottoman Empire declared war upon The Knights

September 3, 1591 : Ottoman Empire accepted peace with The Knights on the following terms : The Knights pays 212$ in indemnities. Malta to Ottoman Empire

September 20, 1593 : Ottoman Empire joined the war on the same side as Aden in their war against Oman

January 16, 1595 : Mehmed III rose to the throne in Ottoman Empire

October 9, 1596 : Oman accepted peace with Ottoman Empire on the following terms : Oman pays 100$ in indemnities. Dofhar to Ottoman Empire. Oman will become a vassal

November 2, 1596 : Austria declared war upon Ottoman Empire

December 21, 1596 : Oman entered a Military Alliance with Ottoman Empire and Aden

December 21, 1596 : Oman joined the war on the same side as Ottoman Empire in their war against Austria

May 3, 1597 : Ottoman Empire declared war upon Moldavia

January 12, 1599 : Ottoman Empire went with Bribe the rebel leaders in The Spahi Uprisings
 

King John

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Austrian Power

- 1 point for DOW on OE
- 4 points for taking two provs from OE
- 1 point for DOW on England
- 1 point for 2nd DOW on OE
- 1 point for AAR
- 2 points from last session
- x points for MP
- y points for navy

Spending
- 4 points on 2 MP increases in Vienna(351)
- 2 points on 1 MP in Salzburg (350)
- 4 points on 2 MP in Prague (328

Prestige

- 34 points for 34 European provs
- .5 points for 2 colonial provs
- 3 points for one victorious war
- 2 points for leading in land and trade
- 10 points for existing
- 5 points for 50% increase in income
- 2 for AAR
- 5 left from last week

61.5, or 62 if i can round up, + at some points for income percentage.

- 15 for cores in Bosnia(364), Ragusa(362), and Dalmatia(365)
- 45 on base tax increases
- 6 for +2 in Vienna(351)
- 3 for +1 in Krems(327)
- 3 for +1 in Arnhem(338)
- 3 for +1 in Amsterdam(339)
- 3 for +1 in Vlissingen(340)
- 6 for +2 in Salzburg(350)
- 3 for +1 in Guns(352)
- 3 for +1 in Graz(369)
- 3 for +1 in Strasburg(374)
- 6 for +2 in Trieste(368)
- 3 for +1 in Zara(365)
- 3 for +1 in Ragusa(362)
-3 for population boost in Vienna(351)

63 spent.
 

admiral drake

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King John said:
Austrian Power

- 1 point for DOW on OE
- 4 points for taking two provs from OE
- 1 point for DOW on England
- 1 point for 2nd DOW on OE
- 1 point for AAR
- 2 points from last session
- x points for MP
- y points for navy

Spending
- 4 points on 2 MP increases in Vienna(351)
- 2 points on 1 MP in Salzburg (350)
- 4 points on 2 MP in Prague (328

Prestige

- 34 points for 34 European provs
- .5 points for 2 colonial provs
- 3 points for one victorious war
- 2 points for leading in land and trade
- 10 points for existing
- 5 points for 50% increase in income
- 2 for AAR
- 5 left from last week

61.5, or 62 if i can round up, + at some points for income percentage.

- 15 for cores in Bosnia(364), Ragusa(362), and Dalmatia(365)
- 45 on base tax increases
- 6 for +2 in Vienna(351)
- 3 for +1 in Krems(327)
- 3 for +1 in Arnhem(338)
- 3 for +1 in Amsterdam(339)
- 3 for +1 in Vlissingen(340)
- 6 for +2 in Salzburg(350)
- 3 for +1 in Guns(352)
- 3 for +1 in Graz(369)
- 3 for +1 in Strasburg(374)
- 6 for +2 in Trieste(368)
- 3 for +1 in Zara(365)
- 3 for +1 in Ragusa(362)
-3 for population boost in Vienna(351)

63 spent.

sorry to tell you this but youre not leading in trade or landtech england got 5trade to and everybody has lt18
 

King John

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admiral drake said:
sorry to tell you this but youre not leading in trade or landtech england got 5trade to and everybody has lt18

Wouldn't that make everyone with 5 trade or 18 LT a leader?
 

admiral drake

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King John said:
Wouldn't that make everyone with 5 trade or 18 LT a leader?

no you only get prstige if you lead somewhere iirc like i lead in nt by 1level
 

Dago

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King John said:
Wouldn't that make everyone with 5 trade or 18 LT a leader?


hmm,KJ
i think is better check all ur points in prestige got until now :rofl:
 

King John

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All in all I've only gained one point from tech, and it was legit :). I guess Drake should get credit for highest techs in these categories if there can be only one, although all of us with those techs are basicly in 1st place.

So what. My income points will cover it :p.

EDIT: ok.
 

unmerged(11287)

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the power/prestige system only increases the differences between a poor/small country with larger ones. I think the prices should be extraordinary higher. This kind of games make me lose interest a lot. it's known this game tries to be realistic in historic matters and that's enough excuse to set the countries with their relative differences, (if a player wins as England or Spain has no comparison if one wins with Netherlands, Denmark or Portugal) we should know this, this is an unfair game due this game try to imitate history.

2nd: As this game try to imitate history, countries and balance are set in order to respect historical alliances which aren't respected once the game gets closer to 19th century.

It's very difficult to mantain balance, without balance the game uses not to end in 1820, it does earlier.

Add mad ideas of Ryoken and we have an explosive coctel. No scenario is perfect, but this one caused cots to disappear in the east and it causes unbalances in a comparative view by letting Oe and Russia to have latin "in order to play fair"
on the contrary, now Russia and OE can use their relative advantage with no penalties in technology.

Another mistake is to give some countries a lot of cultures, obviously Ryoken was thinking in great empires and in nappy times, but it requires a weak constant process to reach there where balance is necessary.

No Netherlands and no Portugal in the game will cause no competition at sea, Spain is weak and France prefers to be land based. is this good for balance?

the prestige and power system cause great imbalance, especially the power system. those countries that have advantages in war will win more wars, the power system will boost them and the vicious circle is formed (remember the game is unfair and some countries have less capabilities in war or economics for a poupose, it's got to be a historical game). in economic aspects, those countries that can access more cots will trade more as it was historically, they will make a lot of money and they will improve their trade efficiency, perfect!, but this reports "prestige". having fleets reports prestige when seas may be monopolized for sure. Incomes?, provinces? more prestige, exploits of diplomatic aspects for prestige? sure, are you sure you defined prestige correctly? I think prestige may be adquired in an honorable manner, don't you think? the system is a bit perverted. If countries distract their prestige point to take care of conversions, manufactories, base tax (this last is an abobination), etc, they won't report any balance on the contrary, great countries may enlarge differences with small ones, they will save money (5 prestige may cost 1000 or more time to time depending of the number of manufactories, that means England will have an Industrial revolution in 17th century and they can mantain the rythm of industrialization? amazing, Inflation doesn't count on manu' prices? We began having governors? awesome.

I only agree with cassus belli on everybody and no-alliance rule.

reforms: never use this scenario anymore, govs at the beginning is an abobination. to Use a prestige system based on money (1 prp = 25 duc. for example), so that Inflation will be counted and money will be invested CONSIDERING ITS RISKS, like convertions! this system works in a 100 percent chance of converting a province. how efficient. PLUS we have to respect the advance of technology, i can't have an atomic bomb in 1500 because i paid double prestige.

power system may be modified: Power points may be adquired only by wars. and costs may be higher, CC can't be bought since the demographic explotion IS an historical aspect humans can't control! Power can't buy strategical manufactories, it depends on technology. Power can buy fortifications depending on technology, Power can buy manpower with a huge cost for it. I think power system may be removed.

Damn, I'm upset. i voted 1492 PE's scenario and it resulted Ryo's one. Not only my vote was manipulated, i found mayor shits during the game cuz of the prestige/power system and I'm really mad with it. Remove governors, and set inflation considering incomes, +10 for mayors, +7,5 for medium ones, and +5 for small ones. We're in time.
 

admiral drake

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your just pissed cause the swedish-austrian coalition lost to england :p

you can't say there is no navalcompetition when everybody is at 5/5 half the players in this game got a good to reasonable sized fleet infact the only that don't are bb-russia and spain i think but spain also fought at sea vs ottos

hell having austria invade england with help of sweden and i won barely cause i expected a attack is hardly historicle :)

scenario i agree tho but i disliked ryos 1492 frm start my vote was 1453 ! but you guys insisted on ryo1492 so you got to deal with it now , half the asian cots disapeart for the simple reason ryo never finisht this scenario fully i think and the cot disapearing can be fixed easy just add maps to indochina ai and indian ai nations so they an trade in china and malaka and nippon

also governors benefit the non-colonials most and thanks to them we had a naval and landtech race so far instead of a infra5 race also had lots of wars . due better control of inflation so i really don't see the problem , do you prefer that half the players sit entire time investing in infra instead of naval and landtech and invest more in fleets/armys ect ect to
 

Zeitgeist

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Wow Pibe, that was a pretty scathing indictment of the system. Well, if people don't like the system, I'm willing to drop it, and move on. It was an experiment, and maybe it failed, although I think it was going fine until now and nothing hideously untoward had happened.

Btw, I think there will be more competition at sea shortly. I needed time to rebuild my economy last session and spent time teching infra & trade, before even teching LT. I also can't expect to hold on to two overseas CoTs without a powerful navy, so it is one of my priorities now-- but last session with my economy being in the shape it was I couldn't afford to.

The governors were an attempt to encourage more early wars. Unfortunately, I don't think that really worked too well: most players just played as they would a normal game. I know I warmongered a lot in an attempt to make use of this knowing that early wars wouldn't permanently destroy my economy, but others didn't, and I quickly fell behind.

And I also don't see what the problem is with the prestige income based on money. So what if England has 20% of the world's income. That's 10 points, and hardly a lot. Maybe the income from owning provinces needs to be cut down somewhat, though... although I was rather hoping that would keep the interest in Europe and not overseas. Another thing I could do is increase the bonus for "existing" to essentially boost smaller powers and give them a larger percentage of the total points being distributed.

Anyway Pibe, I'm sorry if you're upset. None of this should have been a surprise though -- I made it pretty clear that I was going to do all this. What's less clear is if it was a good idea-- and based on my experience here, I at least wouldn't use mayors again. Regarding the Eastern CoTs, something similar did happen in WAR III to be honest, but I never really considered it an issue.

Well, I'm open to suggestions as well. I don't think I will remove mayors, it's too late, and particularly unfair to a country such as Spain which has racked up a lot of inflation. But other things to reduce this imbalance might be done. France isn't exactly a small country, so maybe I'm not seeing everything your way-- even if our prestige incomes were roughly the same last session due to my weakness and wars.

Maybe I can rebalance power by making power gained by provinces a percentage of the current provinces that a nation has. So if Brandenburg for example takes a province from Austria, it would be the same amount of power as if the Ottomans took 6 from Spain. That might be a fairer way to distribute on provinces gained, rather than a flat rate.

I could also increase the reward for going to war (legitimate wars of course). So countries that try and fail will have more to gain.

And maybe the manpower/navy things do need to be looked at more closely, and perhaps dropped altogether. Not only do they give a significant boost to large nations able to afford and maintain both, but they also don't reflect nations at war. For example, Austria right now has only 125 mp, while at peacetime it would have over 200, and it would suffer in the calculation.

And costs are always up for debate. Maybe I can add to the manufactory formula and increase the price for each total manufactory. So if you have 10 manufactories and you want to build an 11th using prestige, there's some penalty from the 10 preceding rather than just the ones of that type.
 

admiral drake

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i think the system works just fine right now non of the above you suggest zeit are changes for the good nobody will build 10refinerys under current rules anyway that would be 50points for 1 while average session gain is 60 or so for most nations

i do suggest however to increase the bonus for dowing another nation to 2powerpoints so it isn't the same as getting dowed

and i think early wars worked just fine , ottos-austria-spain-france have fought alot of wars (tho spain only fought a few really long wars) and you may or may not believe it even england fought 4wars now i think people just tend to not notice when ottos and spain fight for 20years.....:)
sweden-russia -bb are the only players that didn't fight 2wars or more i think vs other players but i could be wrong

france is hardly behind , the best infra tech is 4 or so , best trade is 5 i don't think that is hyperteching :)

if you cut down prestige from provs you wil only hurt the small people caue colonise right now give very little compared to europian provs wich only benefits players that are mainly europian

asian cots just give ai maps in the area of china-nippon-malaka and wil be alrigh in future games

the navalpart may be a easy way to get a few powerpoints it has so far only encouraged peope to build a fleet and compete at sea and nobody managed to get more then 3points so far with several getting 2 so i think the navalscene is pretty balanced

if you increase manufacturys further i don't think anybody will build more then 1-2 of them prov boosts are already way better moment you got 2-3refinerys so again more manus wil cost the more it will benefit the rich people as i can mint to build them in mass i dont think bb ect can as easy


and last but not least if you cancel the system (whole reason i joined in first place ) i'd resign
 

Tem_Probe

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admiral drake said:
i do suggest however to increase the bonus for dowing another nation to 2powerpoints so it isn't the same as getting dowed

and last but not least if you cancel the system (whole reason i joined in first place ) i'd resign

I would like to add my voice to these two points. I'm enjoying the current system.
 

Dago

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Tem_Probe said:
I would like to add my voice to these two points. I'm enjoying the current system.


me too
i like this system