Kanth said:
Well present some proves. I had no way to check is KJ breaking it or not. If he did he will be force to give those provinces back.
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Well present some proves. I had no way to check is KJ breaking it or not. If he did he will be force to give those provinces back.
I'm shocked, but in a way also find it typical that you're talking about me giving provs up over your ridiculous rule. For one thing, the suggested punishment you're talking about far outweighs the offense, because I was going to win the war either way, and for another, I already made up for it in game.
This is what happened. I stabhitted the OE when I only controlled 4 European provs, the rule being you have to control 5. I'm sorry, but this is the only game I know of that has such an anal rule, and forgot about it. I'm not going to play in a game where the punishment is to have history reversed completely so that It'd be like I lost the war itself for that. You should come out saying something like "Russia might deserve to lose 1 stab for this". Nothing more than that. I'm very upset about your out of proportion suggestion on this.
Russia doesn't deserve any punishment though, because right after that illegal stabhit, I gained control of the 5 provs and then waited a few months without stabhitting. For having to suffer a stabhit when it shouldn't have, the OE got to avoid a stabhit when it would've recieved one. Twas evened out. Compensation, from Russia or to the OE, for this, should not be in discussion. The only thing to consider is whether you want to punish Russia for my forgetfulness. And nothing out of proportion damn you!
This is what happened. I stabhitted the OE when I only controlled 4 European provs, the rule being you have to control 5. I'm sorry, but this is the only game I know of that has such an anal rule, and forgot about it. I'm not going to play in a game where the punishment is to have history reversed completely so that It'd be like I lost the war itself for that. You should come out saying something like "Russia might deserve to lose 1 stab for this". Nothing more than that. I'm very upset about your out of proportion suggestion on this.
Russia doesn't deserve any punishment though, because right after that illegal stabhit, I gained control of the 5 provs and then waited a few months without stabhitting. For having to suffer a stabhit when it shouldn't have, the OE got to avoid a stabhit when it would've recieved one. Twas evened out. Compensation, from Russia or to the OE, for this, should not be in discussion. The only thing to consider is whether you want to punish Russia for my forgetfulness. And nothing out of proportion damn you!
I think this rule is too hard to monitor, and that we should drop it.
Or at least, it needs to be adjusted so that you can still stabhit for non-European provs using ws from non-european provs.
Or at least, it needs to be adjusted so that you can still stabhit for non-European provs using ws from non-european provs.
John, the distinction regarding European and non-European was taken away on my request before the session.
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Regarding the actual case it appears that it was just a matter of a few months before KJ would have had the WS required for a stab hit. Thus I agree his mistake should not be severly punished. In fact, I do not think one should punish at all for mistakes. So, if KJ is right, Kanth did not lose anything from the illegal stab hit and the case could be closed.
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However, I do believe that these matters should be adressed when they occur. If a player believes he is unjustly treated a lack of decision by the GM will result in this player getting his enjoyment severly damaged.
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I agree that the current stab hit rule is quite complicated to adhere to in the heat of war. The rule is
controlling 5 main provinces (more than 15ws) or 8 less important - 10ws each.
The rule is also a little unclear as it does not describe what happens in a "mixed" case. Suppose you control 4 "main" provinces and 7 "less important" ones. What happens then?
A more clear thing would be if you regarded similar to galleys/warships whne blockading. I.e. 2 galleys equals 1 war ship, i.e. 2 less important equals 1 main.
I have understood the reason for this difficult to apply rule is that the WS value for provinces in this game is higher than what is normal. But the fact remains that it is complicated. I agree with John, although I would not use the word "anal" , that this rule should be made easier.
I would suggest that a stab hit is only allowed if a certain amount of WE is present in the capital. That aptly depicts the war weariness that would occur in RL. Say 2, 3, or 4%.
-----------------
Another thing: the WE number given in the forced peace rule also needs to be clarified: I assume the WE intended is the one in the capital, but if so it should say so.
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The whole complex of stab hit and forced peace rules would then be
1. You may only issue a stab hitting peace offer if the WE in the capital of your opponent is at least X%
(If you do not know what kind of demands result in a stab hitting peace offer you should analyse before the session. Or during the session send 1000d to the king of China who then may tell you that, if he is in the right mood that is
2. You must accept a stab hitting peace offer if the following requirements are met
- the WE in your capital is at least 8 WE
- your stability is at -3
This is to promote reasonable warfare.
-----------
Regarding the actual case it appears that it was just a matter of a few months before KJ would have had the WS required for a stab hit. Thus I agree his mistake should not be severly punished. In fact, I do not think one should punish at all for mistakes. So, if KJ is right, Kanth did not lose anything from the illegal stab hit and the case could be closed.
------------
However, I do believe that these matters should be adressed when they occur. If a player believes he is unjustly treated a lack of decision by the GM will result in this player getting his enjoyment severly damaged.
---------
I agree that the current stab hit rule is quite complicated to adhere to in the heat of war. The rule is
controlling 5 main provinces (more than 15ws) or 8 less important - 10ws each.
The rule is also a little unclear as it does not describe what happens in a "mixed" case. Suppose you control 4 "main" provinces and 7 "less important" ones. What happens then?
A more clear thing would be if you regarded similar to galleys/warships whne blockading. I.e. 2 galleys equals 1 war ship, i.e. 2 less important equals 1 main.
I have understood the reason for this difficult to apply rule is that the WS value for provinces in this game is higher than what is normal. But the fact remains that it is complicated. I agree with John, although I would not use the word "anal"
, that this rule should be made easier. I would suggest that a stab hit is only allowed if a certain amount of WE is present in the capital. That aptly depicts the war weariness that would occur in RL. Say 2, 3, or 4%.
-----------------
Another thing: the WE number given in the forced peace rule also needs to be clarified: I assume the WE intended is the one in the capital, but if so it should say so.
--------------
The whole complex of stab hit and forced peace rules would then be
1. You may only issue a stab hitting peace offer if the WE in the capital of your opponent is at least X%
(If you do not know what kind of demands result in a stab hitting peace offer you should analyse before the session. Or during the session send 1000d to the king of China who then may tell you that, if he is in the right mood that is
2. You must accept a stab hitting peace offer if the following requirements are met
- the WE in your capital is at least 8 WE
- your stability is at -3
This is to promote reasonable warfare.
King John said:I'm shocked, but in a way also find it typical that you're talking about me giving provs up over your ridiculous rule. For one thing, the suggested punishment you're talking about far outweighs the offense, because I was going to win the war either way, and for another, I already made up for it in game.
This is what happened. I stabhitted the OE when I only controlled 4 European provs, the rule being you have to control 5. I'm sorry, but this is the only game I know of that has such an anal rule, and forgot about it. I'm not going to play in a game where the punishment is to have history reversed completely so that It'd be like I lost the war itself for that. You should come out saying something like "Russia might deserve to lose 1 stab for this". Nothing more than that. I'm very upset about your out of proportion suggestion on this.
Russia doesn't deserve any punishment though, because right after that illegal stabhit, I gained control of the 5 provs and then waited a few months without stabhitting. For having to suffer a stabhit when it shouldn't have, the OE got to avoid a stabhit when it would've recieved one. Twas evened out. Compensation, from Russia or to the OE, for this, should not be in discussion. The only thing to consider is whether you want to punish Russia for my forgetfulness. And nothing out of proportion damn you!
Eh... ok I understand. You will get only -50 prestige for breaking stab hit rule.
Daniel,
I agree rule is a little complex and in mixed situation it is hard to tell what provinces are taken, but I belive it is very reasonable rule. Controlling some 5 big, main, rich provinces proves your oponent had to withdraw and you are currently winning. When holding some 20 small 7000 poulation cities just because they are far enough and other side had no time to send army to retake them, do not mean you can stab hit. That is why 4% we in capital rule will not work too. Imagine that someone have 5% we in capital (war was long), but his opponent toke only some distant lands and that is why he gather 99%.
It is really not so hard, please just take a look on screen when you are offering peace and count - are there 5 x 15% (or more) or not.
I agree rule is a little complex and in mixed situation it is hard to tell what provinces are taken, but I belive it is very reasonable rule. Controlling some 5 big, main, rich provinces proves your oponent had to withdraw and you are currently winning. When holding some 20 small 7000 poulation cities just because they are far enough and other side had no time to send army to retake them, do not mean you can stab hit. That is why 4% we in capital rule will not work too. Imagine that someone have 5% we in capital (war was long), but his opponent toke only some distant lands and that is why he gather 99%.
It is really not so hard, please just take a look on screen when you are offering peace and count - are there 5 x 15% (or more) or not.
BTW it is possible we will not play today. I can't find any subs and we need at least 3 of them.
Well, the one being stabhitted may well want to check that everything is OK as well.
Now assume you are being stabhitted, how do you then check whether the attacker made a mistake or was entitled to make a stab hit?
The answer is: as you have a peace offer from him on your screen your own "offer peace" option on your own diplomatic window for that nation will be greyed, i.e. you cannot check the actual warscore to determine the WS value for different provinces, you are at the mercy of your opponent or your memory/knowledge of how much WS diffferent provinces give.
I envisage all sort of fuzz if you challenge his right to make a stab hit.
In the very unprobable case of myself being stabhitted I will henceforth pause the game and demand a specification of why he is entitled to a stab hit.
As my opponent will have sent the peace offer his screen will be greyed as well and he may have grave problems preeenting such a specification. If so I will demand that we go back to the latest save and restart the game. I will under no circumstances risk that my rights have been molested by an opponent. If he cannot provide some kind of evidence he will take the consequences.
And when I am the one giving a stab hit I will first pause the game and write down on a piece of paper those provinces entitling me to make a stab hit, so that I can answer such a question should I get one. I will then hope my opponent accepts them. If not we are in deep shit.
Is this the kind of game we want?
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I have written it many times before on this board but it seems I need to do it again. The priority when making rules in games are under normal circumstances
1. Clarity
2. Easy to understand and apply
3. Equity
In that order. The present rule is neither clear nor easy to apply and understand. It my well be fair and equitable but that is of less importance.
---------
Besides: you have not answered several other points (e.g. mixed cases) I made. Each one of them must be answered. Please reread my post HAL.
Now assume you are being stabhitted, how do you then check whether the attacker made a mistake or was entitled to make a stab hit?
The answer is: as you have a peace offer from him on your screen your own "offer peace" option on your own diplomatic window for that nation will be greyed, i.e. you cannot check the actual warscore to determine the WS value for different provinces, you are at the mercy of your opponent or your memory/knowledge of how much WS diffferent provinces give.
I envisage all sort of fuzz if you challenge his right to make a stab hit.
In the very unprobable case of myself being stabhitted
I will henceforth pause the game and demand a specification of why he is entitled to a stab hit. As my opponent will have sent the peace offer his screen will be greyed as well and he may have grave problems preeenting such a specification. If so I will demand that we go back to the latest save and restart the game. I will under no circumstances risk that my rights have been molested by an opponent. If he cannot provide some kind of evidence he will take the consequences.
And when I am the one giving a stab hit I will first pause the game and write down on a piece of paper those provinces entitling me to make a stab hit, so that I can answer such a question should I get one. I will then hope my opponent accepts them. If not we are in deep shit.
Is this the kind of game we want?
----------
I have written it many times before on this board but it seems I need to do it again. The priority when making rules in games are under normal circumstances
1. Clarity
2. Easy to understand and apply
3. Equity
In that order. The present rule is neither clear nor easy to apply and understand. It my well be fair and equitable but that is of less importance.
---------
Besides: you have not answered several other points (e.g. mixed cases) I made. Each one of them must be answered. Please reread my post HAL.
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Edits for Mahmud II son of Sultan Abdulhämid I
tag = TUR
prestige = 113.96
power = 165.65
deflation 1
deflation 1
deflation 1
manpower 1610 2
manpower 474 2
manpower 740 2
manpower 739 2
manpower 358 2
manpower 478 2
manpower 477 2
manpower 357 2
manpower 1611 2
manpower 489 2
manpower 746 2
manpower 739 2
manpower 745 2
manpower 489 2
manpower 747 2
manpower 356 2
manpower 491 2
manpower 490 2
manpower 490 2
population 739
population 1611
population 357
population 358
population 478
population 477
population 1610
population 491
population 490
population 489
population 744
population 1509
population 356
population 745
population 485
population 483
population 474
population 495
population 1609
population 359
population 356
population 321
population 482
population 476
population 360
population 320
population 492
fort 477
fort 478
fort 357
fort 358
provincetransfer 1591 CHI
provincetransfer 1528 CHI
I sincerely ask for having these edit requests made after the Ottoman’s are done.
BTW, what a stupid color I have, I can barely make out what the text says. :wacko:
As I was given the right to make quadruple tax commands because I could not use any prestige points at all the previous session I have taken the liberty of inserting 6 instead of 3 DP slider moves for the same reason and I hope this meets with the approval of the GM.
As I have only stab +2 now I do not know the rules, perhaps I will be allowed to make only 5 moves. Do we have any precedence on this?
China
tag = CHI
prestige = 323.53
power = 50.33
culture hindi
culture afghani
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
provincetransfer 532 TUR
provincetransfer 533 TUR
provincetransfer 534 TUR
provincetransfer 535 TUR
provincetransfer 528 TUR
fort 1592
fort 1527
manpower 543 2
manpower 546 2
manpower 542 2
manpower 1592 2
manpower 551 2
manpower 550 2
manpower 566 2
manpower 570 2
manpower 567 2
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taxvalue 642 2
taxvalue 650 2
taxvalue 652 2
taxvalue 653 2
taxvalue 655 2
taxvalue 656 2
taxvalue 657 2
taxvalue 658 2
taxvalue 659 2
taxvalue 670 2
BTW, what a stupid color I have, I can barely make out what the text says. :wacko:
As I was given the right to make quadruple tax commands because I could not use any prestige points at all the previous session I have taken the liberty of inserting 6 instead of 3 DP slider moves for the same reason and I hope this meets with the approval of the GM.
As I have only stab +2 now I do not know the rules, perhaps I will be allowed to make only 5 moves. Do we have any precedence on this?
China
tag = CHI
prestige = 323.53
power = 50.33
culture hindi
culture afghani
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
dpslider mercantilism -
provincetransfer 532 TUR
provincetransfer 533 TUR
provincetransfer 534 TUR
provincetransfer 535 TUR
provincetransfer 528 TUR
fort 1592
fort 1527
manpower 543 2
manpower 546 2
manpower 542 2
manpower 1592 2
manpower 551 2
manpower 550 2
manpower 566 2
manpower 570 2
manpower 567 2
manpower 559 2
manpower 670 2
manpower 649 2
manpower 652 2
manpower 653 2
manpower 654 2
manpower 655 2
manpower 657 2
manpower 658 2
manpower 659 2
taxvalue 1522 2
taxvalue 1523 2
taxvalue 1524 2
taxvalue 1527 2
taxvalue 1531 2
taxvalue 1591 2
taxvalue 1592 2
taxvalue 1523 2
taxvalue 1524 2
taxvalue 1527 2
taxvalue 1591 2
taxvalue 674 2
taxvalue 641 2
taxvalue 642 2
taxvalue 650 2
taxvalue 652 2
taxvalue 653 2
taxvalue 655 2
taxvalue 656 2
taxvalue 657 2
taxvalue 658 2
taxvalue 659 2
taxvalue 670 2
taxvalue 641 2
taxvalue 642 2
taxvalue 650 2
taxvalue 652 2
taxvalue 653 2
taxvalue 655 2
taxvalue 656 2
taxvalue 657 2
taxvalue 658 2
taxvalue 659 2
taxvalue 670 2
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I can take USA. As a sub for now, but if I like the game I will join as a perm If you allow.
Van Engel said:I'll be subbing something tonight.
Thanks.
Daniel and othres,
There is small upgreade in stab hit rule and new rule about breaking rules
.
tag = HAB
prestige = 59.76
power = 79.26
population 351
taxvalue 351 2
manpower 351 2
manpower 333 2
manpower 305 2
manpower 349 2
manpower 331 2
manpower 328 2
manpower 312 2
manpower 339 2
manpower 373 2
culture polish
manufactory 333 goods
fort 351
fort 345
fort 301
fort 316
fort 317
fort 312
manufactory 305 navalequipment
manufactory 339 navalequipment
prestige = 59.76
power = 79.26
population 351
taxvalue 351 2
manpower 351 2
manpower 333 2
manpower 305 2
manpower 349 2
manpower 331 2
manpower 328 2
manpower 312 2
manpower 339 2
manpower 373 2
culture polish
manufactory 333 goods
fort 351
fort 345
fort 301
fort 316
fort 317
fort 312
manufactory 305 navalequipment
manufactory 339 navalequipment
i see that there was some kind of problems with the session...
i knew it, without me there is just no game and no fun
i knew it, without me there is just no game and no fun
But Wow who subbed in OE managed to get a WP in the war with Russia. Not bad, eh Kanth
Daniel A said:But Wow who subbed in OE managed to get a WP in the war with Russia. Not bad, eh Kanth
Yes, thx WOW for subbing.