Third Rome buffing Russia to over 9000?

[Sokulsky]

Don't get me wrong I know that Russia in the old patches was a bit underpowered, but in the current version of the game (Mandate of Heaven/Hungary update) they're France 2.0 except with less menacing opponents around them.

Their armies are not of so low quality like before and sheer numbers do the job they need to do - ally with Denmark and pick on Sweden, Lithuania, Poland, Ordes, OE one by one. Back before AI struggled to achieve historical expansion levels if player picked the first (1444) scenario, but currently they're:
- destroying Novgorod in around 40 years
- tank Livonian Order
- ally Denmark and SWE is pretty much beating boy for them after that
- Pol/Lith don't give them run for their money anymore
- Khanates/Ordes were able to withstand some of Muscovy invasions before, now they're roflstomped pretty much ASAP

I know that Russia is supposed to be strong eventually, but they didn't really become a major power before 1600's and their armies often couldn't match western neighbours armies even with numerical advantage.

Numerical advantage actually counts now much more (if you don't believe me, start 1700-scen as SWE and try to rerun Narva with Karl XII elite army - you will be all sweaty from manouvering after first engagement with Poles, not too mention Russia in that scenario...)

Currently they almost always Major Power around 1500's.

Now this is the list of features of Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome:

• Tsardoms and Principalities: New ranks of Russian government with new abilities and, for Tsars, strong bonuses including the right to claim entire States – not just provinces
• Iconography: Commission great religious icons for the Orthodox Church, boosting your empire’s power depending on the saint you choose to revere
• Metropolitans: Consecrate highly developed provinces with Metropolitans, adding to the authority of the Orthodox Church, but for a cost.
• Streltsy: Special Russian soldiers that excel in combat, but raise the cost of stabilizing your empire
• Siberian Frontier: Russia can slowly colonize uninhabited border regions, with no fear of native uprisings
• New Graphics: Includes three full unit packs and new portraits for Eastern Europe.

As usual, Third Rome will be accompanied by a free update to Europa Universalis IV, available for everyone who owns the base game.

It's cool, I love more flavour for Russia, but I get the feeling that nothing (other than players effort) will be able to contain them in any sort of way after the update.

Thoughts?

 

[Regaccio]

Imo, the way the new "immersion pack" looks, it just seems to be a big buff and a flavor pack for Russia/Russian minors. Basically a wet dream if you love Russia or playing Russia. But if you're not playing Russia then there's no point in even enabling it. So as far as balance goes, it doesn't really matter whether it's balanced or not because if you're not playing Russia, you can just disable it and lose pretty much nothing, and if you ARE playing Russia then you're a player against AIs and the balance is already tipped far in your favor anyway, and the immersion pack is just for fun.

 

[Lacost]

It also all boils down to what the AI is programmed to do with the immersion pack features. Surely, a player can exploit them to the full extend but the AI might not be so efficient.

I would wait until the immersion pack is live and Russia starts to superblob in the 17th century. If that happens then maybe Russia is a bit too overpowered.

 

[Sherhi]

my experience is completely different, Russia in most of my games does very poorly...I played it several times and I usually hit the otto-FRA alliance blob that destroys me no matter what I do, not sure what you mean by superior number beating the game these days, ottos still stackwipe my armies as russia until they lose janissaries and I finish all military ideas I need

 

[staycool.]

It seems to me that OP never actually played Russia in multiplayer. They get rekt, hard, all the time because their neighbors have vastly superior quality (Poland, SWE, Ottos) as well as numbers (Ottos specifically). Boost to orthodoxy and Muscovy in general is more than welcome to balance out the game.

 

[Five_X]

It seems to me that OP never actually played Russia in multiplayer. They get rekt, hard, all the time because their neighbors have vastly superior quality (Poland, SWE, Ottos) as well as numbers (Ottos specifically). Boost to orthodoxy and Muscovy in general is more than welcome to balance out the game.

Even outside MP, the Russian AI has a fun tendency to get walked on by Ming.

 

[Sokulsky]

It seems to me that OP never actually played Russia in multiplayer. They get rekt, hard, all the time because their neighbors have vastly superior quality (Poland, SWE, Ottos) as well as numbers (Ottos specifically). Boost to orthodoxy and Muscovy in general is more than welcome to balance out the game.

OP has played hundreds of hours in EU2 mp back in his days and I can tell you mate that EU series was never made to be balanced as nation vs nation game in MP because it's set in historical setting. It's always up to MP players to maintain any balance they want through diplomacy and that's how Russia actually rose to it's power status.

Thus my point is not about Russia in MP because other nations are guided by human players as well => MP actually balance a lot of vanilla isues just by being MP (not to mention mods that always ruled when it came to EU games).

 

[Raczynski]

It seems to me that OP never actually played Russia in multiplayer. They get rekt, hard, all the time because their neighbors have vastly superior quality (Poland, SWE, Ottos) as well as numbers (Ottos specifically). Boost to orthodoxy and Muscovy in general is more than welcome to balance out the game.

Majority of EU4 players don't play multiplayer. I find it kinda insulting that all the changes are supposed to be balanced for the multiplayer. In SP, Sweden does noting and Poland is destroyed by the Teutonic Order 9 times out of 10 (under the current patch).

 

[Kergan]

The only times I've seen Russia survive GP status since MoH was when I helped them. In my last game I ignored them once they no longer were a valid rival (though only after I made sure the Ottomans could no longer attack them to keep them safe), and they eventually got terminated by Sweden and Buryatia.

Russia sucks atm, plain and simple. There's really no other way to put it. I've never seen them do well in recent patches. That is, they systematically get butchered by the Ottomans, and occasionally by a combination of PLC and Scandinavians. Hopefully this new patch will turn them into something more of an opponent to look forward to dismantling in the mid- to end game.

 

[hashinshin]

Imo, the way the new "immersion pack" looks, it just seems to be a big buff and a flavor pack for Russia/Russian minors. Basically a wet dream if you love Russia or playing Russia. But if you're not playing Russia then there's no point in even enabling it. So as far as balance goes, it doesn't really matter whether it's balanced or not because if you're not playing Russia, you can just disable it and lose pretty much nothing, and if you ARE playing Russia then you're a player against AIs and the balance is already tipped far in your favor anyway, and the immersion pack is just for fun.

Or you could like a challenge and not like intentionally weakening the AI to make things easier for yourself? There's already easy mode...

 

[hashinshin]

OP has played hundreds of hours in EU2 mp back in his days and I can tell you mate that EU series was never made to be balanced as nation vs nation game in MP because it's set in historical setting. It's always up to MP players to maintain any balance they want through diplomacy and that's how Russia actually rose to it's power status.

Thus my point is not about Russia in MP because other nations are guided by human players as well => MP actually balance a lot of vanilla isues just by being MP (not to mention mods that always ruled when it came to EU games).

That's a really dumb way of looking at things. The current Russia strat is to BUMRUSH Poland because if Russia ever ends up in a reasonably fair fight they just get STOMPED on. Most Russia's that invade Poland and win just take all the Russian culture and go invade easier AI to the east anyway because even with all that dev they'd struggle to do much against any real powers. Half the time Sweden comes in with 1/2-2/3 of their dev and destroys them.

 

[Robert II]

I don't see Russia becoming more powerful as a bad thing. In just about every game I've played if I don't crush the ottomans early they eat Russia with no effort. If the ottomans do die early then the PLC with some Swedish help usually eats Russia.