Third Person... Dialogue and Hope!

[Deith]

The World of Darkness, is a beloved franchise is not a cookie cutter franchise like Call of Duty, or Battlefield to name a few, which many would just skip. The World of Darkness has millions of fans world wide who were fans before this was even a video game, and that is why when CCP bought white wolf and announced the MMO which was going to be a 3rd person game, the world went mad. People were offering CCP money during live events to help them develop the game. It is a fact that Paradox would exclude millions of gamers, due to this decision, be it because of preference or a physical disability. It's now an out of this world request, and by talking to actual developers who I worked with in the past, I was told that the only limitation would come with the game engine, and this engine should be very adaptable and uncomplicated since they will be allowing mods. This is not an out of this world request.

I cannot agree more with this statement.

If it was any other franchise, I would just shrug and go on with my life, feeling little to no regret about my condition and inability to play in FPP. But it's World of Darkness and Bloodlines 2, and it just breaks my heart that I may not be able to enjoy this game and explore another piece of this vast and wonderful universe. I'm sure, based on discussions here and in other places, that there are many people that share my point of view. I may be overly emotional about this, but WoD had a big inpact on my life and I really hope that there will be a chance for me, and other people suffering from various kinds of motion sickness, to play Bloodlines 2 and enjoy every minute of it. I really don't care it TPP is clunky as long as it's there. I loved the first game, even though motion animations (jumping!) in TPP were sometimes... Well, rather funny.

I hope there is still time to make changes in the game and implement TPP mode. But if not... I place my hopes in the modding community.

 

[Magister Tremere]

I cannot agree more with this statement.

If it was any other franchise, I would just shrug and go on with my life, feeling little to no regret about my condition and inability to play in FPP. But it's World of Darkness and Bloodlines 2, and it just breaks my heart that I may not be able to enjoy this game and explore another piece of this vast and wonderful universe. I'm sure, based on discussions here and in other places, that there are many people that share my point of view. I may be overly emotional about this, but WoD had a big inpact on my life and I really hope that there will be a chance for me, and other people suffering from various kinds of motion sickness, to play Bloodlines 2 and enjoy every minute of it. I really don't care it TPP is clunky as long as it's there. I loved the first game, even though motion animations (jumping!) in TPP were sometimes... Well, rather funny.

I hope there is still time to make changes in the game and implement TPP mode. But if not... I place my hopes in the modding community.

If Paradox Interactive didn't understand the depth of affection that people have for this game and what kind of gem they have in the IP as a whole when this whole thing got started, I'm pretty sure that they have an idea now. They have to get this right!

I'm right there with you in regards to being able to play or not. I love the fact that they're bringing it back to us, but it's a no go for me in first-person.

 

[milkavains]

I made an account just to support this, as a long time fan I’m a bit heartbroken really. One of the reasons I loved the game was because it was third-person (I really don’t want to start any arguments just want to share my opinion on this) Why change something everyone loved

 

[milkavains]

I made an account just to support this, as a long time fan I’m a bit heartbroken really. One of the reasons I loved the game was because it was third-person (I really don’t want to start any arguments just want to share my opinion on this) Why change something everyone loved

AND I had to say we have waited YEARS to get a sequel and for them to only have first person is terrible

 

[Magister Tremere]

I made an account just to support this, as a long time fan I’m a bit heartbroken really. One of the reasons I loved the game was because it was third-person (I really don’t want to start any arguments just want to share my opinion on this) Why change something everyone loved

AND I had to say we have waited YEARS to get a sequel and for them to only have first person is terrible

You'll get few arguments here on this subject. As I said in another forum... One of the things that will do this game a disservice is the "no third-person option", which will effectively rule out those (like us) who can't play in first-person and those who won't purchase the game on principle for the same reason.

 

[prithupaul]

Imagine if a game like Witcher 3 was first person only. All those fancy Witcher combat moves would have been lost. Star Wars : Jedi Knight. Dark souls. God of War. DMC. So much freedom of movement and action, and situational awareness. Compare the combat in those games to left-click-to-stab combat in Dishonored. Woefully limited thanks to first person. https://www.thetoptens.com/video-game-combat-systems/ Almost all of them third person.

I am one of those who will definitely not pay for this if there is no third person option.

 

[Jia Xu]

Denial: "I can't believe they would make this third-person only!"
Anger: "How could they make this third-person only?! They didn't even consult me!"
Bargaining: "If you add third-person, I will buy the game. If you don't, then I won't buy it!"
Depression: "If they don't add-third person, I won't be able to play..."
Acceptance: "The game is first-person only. We had a explicit developer post telling us that it was first-person only. Time to move on to another game"

Joking aside, you guys are setting yourselves up for massive disappointment when the gameplay demo is made public and it's still first-person only, exactly like that one developer told us it would be. You have to learn to take no for an answer.

 

[milkavains]

Denial: "I can't believe they would make this third-person only!"
Anger: "How could they make this third-person only?! They didn't even consult me!"
Bargaining: "If you add third-person, I will buy the game. If you don't, then I won't buy it!"
Depression: "If they don't add-third person, I won't be able to play..."
Acceptance: "The game is first-person only. We had a explicit developer post telling us that it was first-person only. Time to move on to another game"

Joking aside, you guys are setting yourselves up for massive disappointment when the gameplay demo is made public and it's still first-person only, exactly like that one developer told us it would be. You have to learn to take no for an answer.

Seems like the points we made went straight over your head mate

 

[Jia Xu]

Seems like the points we made went straight over your head mate

Not true! I assure you that I have carefully read all 3 of your previous posts. You really liked third-person in the first game. I've got a question for you! Have you played the first game, recently? I have. Let me tell you about third-person view in the first Bloodlines. In BL1, while you are in third-person view, your character moves automatically with the camera. If you turn the camera left, your character moves left with it. You are always staring at your character's back. You can't ever see your character's face in BL1 except in a few cutscenes or by pausing the game and looking at the character info page. The third-person view in BL1 doesn't do anything other than attempt to poorly accommodate the half-arsed melee combat.

I think some of you have a severe case of nostalgia. Get well soon, friend.

 

[milkavains]

Not true! I assure that I have carefully read all 3 of your previous posts. You really liked third-person in the first game. I've got a question for you! Have you played the first game, recently? I have. Let me tell you about third-person view in the first Bloodlines. In BL1, while you are in third-person view, your character moves automatically with the camera. If you turn the camera left, your character moves left with it. You are always staring at your character's back. You can't ever see your character's face in BL1 except in a few cutscenes or by pausing the game and looking at the character info page. The third-person view in BL1 doesn't do anything other than attempt to poorly accommodate the half-arsed melee combat.

I think some of you have a severe case of nostalgia. Get well soon, friend.

Thanks for the quick response, yes I have played the first game recently and I’m aware of the flaws. I’m just saying I think it would be better if we had a choice (and when I asked other people about their views on BL2 being only first person they were surprised and like me a bit disappointed) I’m going to play the game regardless because I just f***ing love the whole vibe of the first. I just feel more in control and more immersed in third-person (wild I know) no need to get heated over this... it’s only people trying to make it a bit more inclusive that’s all chief

 

[Magister Tremere]

Denial: "I can't believe they would make this third-person only!"
Anger: "How could they make this third-person only?! They didn't even consult me!"
Bargaining: "If you add third-person, I will buy the game. If you don't, then I won't buy it!"
Depression: "If they don't add-third person, I won't be able to play..."
Acceptance: "The game is first-person only. We had a explicit developer post telling us that it was first-person only. Time to move on to another game"

Joking aside, you guys are setting yourselves up for massive disappointment when the gameplay demo is made public and it's still first-person only, exactly like that one developer told us it would be. You have to learn to take no for an answer.

You know... Maybe you're 100% correct about the game we'll eventually get. You can also be 100% certain that this game will lose sales as a result of such a decision. Now you might not care about that because you're in a position where you don't have to. Hell, maybe Paradox doesn't care either. Who can say? I doubt that they don't care, but again, who can say? What I can say is that while I can't speak for others, I know that I would be disappointed if third-person isn't included (at some point), but rest assured that I won't be upset about not purchasing the game if it doesn't.

So, yeah... "No" may be the final answer we get on this subject, but this isn't about addressing spoiled children (as your comment seems to suggest). This all about legitimate reasons for why people won't spend their money on something they don't want. Our passion about this is due to our love for the game and our desire to play it, but we're not blind to the fact that sometimes things don't work out. C'est la vie! In those cases, you put your money back in your pocket and find another game to play.

 

[Jia Xu]

Thanks for the quick response, yes I have played the first game recently and I’m aware of the flaws. I’m just saying I think it would be better if we had a choice (and when I asked other people about their views on BL2 being only first person they were surprised and like me a bit disappointed) I’m going to play the game regardless because I just f***ing love the whole vibe of the first. I just feel more in control and more immersed in third-person (wild I know) no need to get heated over this... it’s only people trying to make it a bit more inclusive that’s all chief

This is a good post. You're disappointed that you're not getting everything you wanted, but you're going to turn your chin up and enjoy the game anyway! That's a good, positive attitude.

 

[Jia Xu]

You know... Maybe you're 100% correct about the game we'll eventually get. You can also be 100% certain that this game will lose sales as a result of such a decision. Now you might not care about that because you're in a position where you don't have to. Hell, maybe Paradox doesn't care either. Who can say? I doubt that they don't care, but again, who can say? What I can say is that while I can't speak for others, I know that I would be disappointed if third-person isn't included (at some point), but rest assured I won't be upset about not purchasing the game if it doesn't.

So, yeah... "No" may be the final answer we get on this subject, but this isn't about addressing spoiled children (as your comment seems to suggest). This all about legitimate reasons for why people won't spend their money on something they don't want. Our passion about this is due to our love for the game and our desire to play it, but we're not blind to the fact that sometimes things don't work out. C'est la vie! In those cases, you put your money back in your pocket and find another game to play.

You're absolutely right in your assessment of my investment, here. First-person only, third-person only, both at the same time, it doesn't matter to me. I'm going to play this game over and over again, mod it into all kinds of things. It's easy for me to crack jokes and make light of the situation because I don't have any emotional investment in this issue.

To answer your question of "who can say?" try the developer who explicitly said the game is the immersive first-person only experience. We don't have to guess. We were told. As for "spoiled children", I right out said I was joking around with you guys. Don't take life so seriously. If first-person only is a deal breaker, that's fine. Not every game is for everyone. If that's the case, though, why not move on now? Are you really going to fight this losing battle, every day, for twelve months, right up until the game releases? I don't see how this benefits you guys at all. All jokes aside, it's kind of sad.

 

[Magister Tremere]

You're absolutely right in your assessment of my investment, here. First-person only, third-person only, both at the same time, it doesn't matter to me. I'm going to play this game over and over again, mod it into all kinds of things. It's easy for me to crack jokes and make light of the situation because I don't have any emotional investment in this issue.

To answer your question of "who can say?" try the developer who explicitly said the game is the immersive first-person only experience. We don't have to guess. We were told. As for "spoiled children", I right out said I was joking around with you guys. Don't take life so seriously. If first-person only is a deal breaker, that's fine. Not every game is for everyone. If that's the case, though, why not move on now? Are you really going to fight this losing battle, every day, for twelve months, right up until the game releases? I don't see how this benefits you guys at all. All jokes aside, it's kind of sad.

Feel about it as you will... You're entitled to that. As for this "losing battle", I was told by a representative of Paradox Interactive to put this out there. If they were mocking me in this, well... That would be disappointing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that by suggesting this, they're genuinely concerned about what their fans want. Logistics and timing may prevent what "we" want from happening at launch, but if Paradox Interactive wants to hear about how we feel, then we should let our voices be heard.

You can continue to mock the issue as you see fit, but it doesn't make our concerns any less valid. However, being that you don't have an emotional investment in it one way or the other, why not just add your voice to prospect of including third-person? What the hell... You have nothing to lose either way and it takes two minutes out of your day. You've spent more than that spinning the tale of why we're wasting our time with wanting our desires heard... As the old adage says, "Lead. Follow, or get out of the way!"

 

[Jia Xu]

Feel about it as you will... You're entitled to that. As for this "losing battle", I was told by a representative of Paradox Interactive to put this out there. If they were mocking me in this, well... That would be disappointing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that by suggesting this, they're genuinely concerned about what their fans want. Logistics and timing may prevent what "we" want from happening at launch, but if Paradox Interactive wants to hear about how we feel, then we should let our voices be heard.

You can continue to mock the issue as you see fit, but it doesn't make our concerns any less valid. However, being that you don't have an emotional investment in it one way or the other, why not just add your voice to prospect of including third-person? What the hell... You have nothing to lose either way and it takes two minutes out of your day. You've spent more than that spinning the tale of why we're wasting our time with wanting our desires heard... As the old adage says, "Lead. Follow, or get out of the way!"

The PI rep tried to let you down easy and right out told you that it's probably too late. "I think", "may still" and other similar phrases that this person used are part of an art form this person practices called "public relations." It's the art of telling consumers that you are sensitive to their concerns when you actually have no intention of changing course. Don't feel manipulated. It's just part of running a business. Capitalism is a cruel mistress and we all get a turn feeling the whip on our backs. It's important to note that Paradox isn't even developing this game. Paradox Interactive is a publisher. They publish games. They contribute funding, marketing, arranging for distribution, and stuff like that. The developer is a studio called Hardsuit Labs and they haven't even bothered to do the public relations routine on you. They're just ignoring your concerns. I don't think they care.

I will say this. Don't be so quick to make assumptions! I have already signed your highly credible petition dozens of times. How many times have you signed it? Maybe you and I can have some kind of race to see who can sign it the most times in one day?

 

[Magister Tremere]

The PI rep tried to let you down easy and right out told you that it's probably too late. "I think", "may still" and other similar phrases that this person used are part of an art form this person practices called "public relations." It's the art of telling consumers that you are sensitive to their concerns when you actually have no intention of changing course. Don't feel manipulated. It's just part of running a business. Capitalism is a cruel mistress and we all get a turn feeling the whip on our backs. It's important to note that Paradox isn't even developing this game. Paradox Interactive is a publisher. They publish games. They contribute funding, marketing, arranging for distribution, and stuff like that. The developer is a studio called Hardsuit Labs and they haven't even bothered to do the public relations routine on you. They're just ignoring your concerns. I don't think they care.

I will say this. Don't be so quick to make assumptions! I have already signed your highly credible petition dozens of times. How many times have you signed it? Maybe you and I can have some kind of race to see who can sign it the most times in one day?

I assume nothing Jia. I answer what's in front of me and move on.

 

[Midgar]

I appreciate the inside information! With all of this in mind, it kind of reinforces my thinking in regards to PI needing to have erred on the side of caution when choosing a developer for this game. While development for the video games is relatively new, the IP is not an unknown and fans of the game most certainly would/will not let things slip. Again, this is why I've also said that perhaps Paradox didn't completely understand what kind of gem they were holding with the World of Darkness IP.

All concerned need to get this right!

It's not a problem, I actually got into a bit of trouble by offering some insight. But like I said before this is not a cookie cutter franchise, I feel very strongly about this.

Denial: "I can't believe they would make this third-person only!"
Anger: "How could they make this third-person only?! They didn't even consult me!"
Bargaining: "If you add third-person, I will buy the game. If you don't, then I won't buy it!"
Depression: "If they don't add-third person, I won't be able to play..."
Acceptance: "The game is first-person only. We had a explicit developer post telling us that it was first-person only. Time to move on to another game"

Joking aside, you guys are setting yourselves up for massive disappointment when the game play demo is made public and it's still first-person only, exactly like that one developer told us it would be. You have to learn to take no for an answer.

Like I've said before, like many talking out of their a**. I have 8 years of experience in the industry, and in that time, I have seen games changed or cancelled altogether. We live in the inclusion era, where it's almost a crime to leave a person out, be it for a physical disability or impairment, because of their opinion or their cultural background. Petitions such as this carry a lot more weight than you think, specially in the United States, I've seen it happen at Microsoft and other companies.

I'm not sure why, you can't offer any productive feedback instead of being toxic all the time. If you don't care about this issue, or do not want to see it included then why post at all? You were already trolling the other 3rd person thread, now come to this one before it's more active? You really need to get out more.

 

[Midgar]

Imagine if a game like Witcher 3 was first person only. All those fancy Witcher combat moves would have been lost. Star Wars : Jedi Knight. Dark souls. God of War. DMC. So much freedom of movement and action, and situational awareness. Compare the combat in those games to left-click-to-stab combat in Dishonored. Woefully limited thanks to first person. https://www.thetoptens.com/video-game-combat-systems/ Almost all of them third person.

I am one of those who will definitely not pay for this if there is no third person option.

This is exactly right, The Witcher 3 would never have achieved the level of critical acclaim, or the fandom that it has, if it had been a 1st person game. Specially since it's set in a medieval European setting, The Witcher 3 is a masterpiece, and was voted best video game ever, because of its story, game play and perspective.

 

[Nothingness39]

Most games and MMOs give you the choice to play in first person view AND third person view. It's not difficult to pull it off. If those devs can pull it off for those games for decades, and Hard Suit and Paradox cannot, it's just plain laziness. There is of course some types of games like shooter games that only use first person view, BUT Bloodlines 2 is not a shooter game, it's an RPG game. RPG!!!

 

[kemmy23]

Most games and MMOs give you the choice to play in first person view AND third person view. It's not difficult to pull it off. If those devs can pull it off for those games for decades, and Hard Suit and Paradox cannot, it's just plain laziness.

It's simply not a simple thing to make a game that is both third person and first person. For third person, you have to render a character model in its entirety, come up with a mountain of animations for said character (which would have to be different for each vampire clan, bodytype, gender etc) and make sure that each model and animation doesn't bug out with jumping, running, changes of scenery and interactions with objects. What you're basically saying is that unless the developers are willing to double their workload (in terms of modelling and testing etc) to conform to your personal preferences, they're lazy. That is frankly a silly attitude to take.

There is of course some types of games like shooter games that only use first person view, BUT Bloodlines 2 is not a shooter game, it's an RPG game. RPG!!!

What relevance does the genre of game have to do with camera viewpoint?