Think What Will happen if...

[Pbanned]

hi to all
Hoi4 is a awesome game. but I think it could be better.
I have an idea!!
please read it complete and consider what will happen if it come to reality!
I see the map.it is a good one. have lots of location that has not importance ( I mean factories and infrastructure related to states.) a location is a location. it related to forts,port,terrain and some of these properties.
okay.
but what is may idea?
I think that we can have more and more and more location.it is a example that if we have 100,000 location now why we can't have 1 million location. it means that we can have a map with larger scale and more zoom on map. and unit will become smaller to be properly with locations. perhaps this map we have now will be better for Vic3 instead (As my opinion).
you should say we will not have enough divisions to cover the battlefront. it's true.you are right. but i think before about it. it can be shown battalion instead of division with a limitation that they must be side by side each other. only for clarification : it can become a three layer command chain.
at last you will say " I have not a super computer". you are right. but the programming team of PDS proved that they can overcome against these problems.they always do their best.
Thanks for your patient. if you like this thread see these threads too:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...1900-and-industrial-revolution.1057840/page-3
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...y-victoria-iii-never-came-to-reality.1057821/
Thanks again and it's All a suggestion not trolling.
edit : if we have 15,000 location Why we can't have 150,000 location. thanks to KalZakath

 

[zukodark]

You're a genius. Let's just merge it with the globe idea and size it up to real scale. Let us fight as each of the soldiers themselves. That way you can micromanage everything perfectly. During a single battle, you just have to replay the FPS section 1000 (!?!) of times. Of course, for the anti-microing-crowd, it can be automated through an AI.

 

[Pbanned]

You're a genius. Let's just merge it with the globe idea and size it up to real scale. Let us fight as each of the soldiers themselves. That way you can micromanage everything perfectly. During a single battle, you just have to replay the FPS section 1000 (!?!) of times. Of course, for the anti-microing-crowd, it can be automated through an AI.

thanks for your reply. but it is a strategy game after all and should not be like a RPG. Thanks again

 

[Sanny]

I think you just broke my brain.

Are you asking for more scale? isn't it big enough already? It's quite hard to keep track of every battle going on in the world as it is.

 

[Tempestra]

This idea makes the baby Jesus cry

 

[Mewtini]

 

[Pbanned]

I think you just broke my brain.

Are you asking for more scale? isn't it big enough already? It's quite hard to keep track of every battle going on in the world as it is.

thanks. are you control every battle every time?
in my opinion it can have huge scaling.
and one thing more : if you can not to control every battalion it will become more realistic.

This idea makes the baby Jesus cry

thanks.Why? this a awesome idea!

Are you trolling?

 

[Tempestra]

thanks.Why? this a awesome idea!

If you can't imagine why anybody would dislike this idea then I'm afraid I can't help you

 

[agus92]

I know it's silly, but his way of talking reminds me of a polite Trump.

Also, Pbanned, consider that computers have limited resources, and what you're describing would be a hell to micromanage for the player and the battle AI. And that is coming from someone who loved the HoI 3 tactical gameplay. Pbanned, you sound like a young fellow, I suggest you start with ExtraCredits YT to educate yourself on AI and games:

that is, if you're not trolling

 

[Pbanned]

If you can't imagine why anybody would dislike this idea then I'm afraid I can't help you

it is a thinking tread to know how to reach this point. only that. and why you think anybody will dislike that. please be more flexible about an idea that is not in the reality.

I know it's silly, but his way of talking reminds me of a polite Trump.

Also, Pbanned, consider that computers have limited resources, and what you're describing would be a hell to micromanage for the player and the battle AI. And that is coming from someone who loved the HoI 3 tactical gameplay. Pbanned, you sound like a young fellow, I suggest you start with ExtraCredits YT to educate yourself on AI and games:

that is, if you're not trolling

thanks for that video. I said it before that is a suggestion. As you are a educated person may I ask you : Do you know how to reach this point to implement that idea?

 

[Ironside121]

Yeah it won't ever happen.

We have enough provinces- I don't think we need more or less. And more provinces mean more divisions needed, which means entire re-balance of the games core system. And then that will stress the CPU out even more.

 

[Pbanned]

Yeah it won't ever happen.

We have enough provinces- I don't think we need more or less. And more provinces mean more divisions needed, which means entire re-balance of the games core system. And then that will stress the CPU out even more.

thanks. I know your concern about the CPU. but there is few questions : the hoi4 that we have now is complete ( about numbers of location and scaling)? is there any way or any need to have more scaling?
Can this idea make the game more detailed? and how to reach that point?
thanks for your flexibility.

 

[Urusai47]

just no.

 

[Tempestra]

it is a thinking tread to know how to reach this point. only that. and why you think anybody will dislike that. please be more flexible about an idea that is not in the reality.

See, when you assume the only reason people disagree with you is that they're not "flexible", this does not exactly make me want to engage further.

 

[Pbanned]

See, when you assume the only reason people disagree with you is that they're not "flexible", this does not exactly make me want to engage further.

hi and thanks. you misunderstand me. 'flexible' doesn't mean 'agree' .my purpose is "think about it with no prejudice". only that. did you see "twelve angry men"? in this film you can see the flexibility.

 

[KalZakath]

I don't think there's 100,000 locations, I believe it's about 15,000, so going to 1,000,000 wouldn't be increasing by a factor of 10, it would be more like a factor of 70.

It would be possible, I guess - just impractical? They'd have to have a staff that's much larger than current sized to program the AI for one - imagine having to limit choices for pathing of units to be able to have any unit move without even a super-computer having to slow down to calculate that.

There is about 57 million square miles of land on earth - going to 1 million zones suddenly you're looking at about 57 square miles per zone, or a size of about 7.5 miles square for the average zone (and knowing from Siberia, etc., the zones are not all the same size). That's down from the current 62 miles square for the zones (square root of (57 million divided by 15,000) = 3800 square miles per zone = 62 miles per side)

I'm assuming that with the increase in world scale, would come a decrease in size of the base units to the same scale? if right now you're looking at divisions as the main unit, if you decrease the size of the zones, wouldn't a division now be responsible for several zones? (to keep the same ratio of units to frontage, it would be about 8.5 or so if I am awake enough yet before caffeine to do the math correctly?) So are we getting down to battalion level as the base unit, where we're equipping companies and squads to make those up? You're talking a completely different animal when you're getting down to that level of micro. The OOB from HOI3 was not loved by many, and we're looking at not only having to recreate that, but go even deeper if I'm getting your proposal right....

With a 7.5 mile wide zone, you're also getting into the area where artilliery has a range of more than one zone. The M1 Howitzer had a range of 11 miles, and the M1A1 upped that to 13 miles. We're talking about even with the artillery a third of the way back in the zone, it would be able to hit the front third of the zone 2 zones away - which means that you're going to need a re-write of rules for artillery and being able to hit multiple spaces away?

What you're talking about here would be great for the WWII enthusiast - but it would start to be out of the range of a grand strategic game, and start having to get much more into a tactical game on a global scale. It would no longer be a HOI game, and almost more like the old Panzer Leader or Squad Leader games by Avalon Hill, where you're micromanaging at such a level where you're almost starting to get into LoS rules and things like that.

Assuming travel speeds stay the same (and no reason why they shouldn't) - are we ready for mechanized or motorized units to be going through a zone an hour? (11 mph for motorized would actually be 1.5 zones per hour, but to actually have any speeds over 7.5 mph, would have to either have teleporting units (skipping zones in the middle?) or reduce the base unit of time (hour).

The air force I'm also assuming would be scaled as well? Lots more zones to cover? Even as is, there's very much a whack-a-mole component to the way that air combat occurs. With the top speed of a B-17 being about 287 mph, that would be about 40 'provinces' an hour. How many 'provinces' would be in each air zone? It would require a complete re-working of air rules as well because of the scale - which may or may not be a good idea....

So again - while great for a WWII enthusiast, we're talking about a completely different beast than the HOI series. Would very much rather have the paradox staff working on getting the current HOI IV right than be working on something the scale you're talking about.

 

[Alex_brunius]

http://www.matrixgames.com/products....in.the.East:.The.German-Soviet.War.1941-1945

 

[bERt0r]

hi and thanks. you misunderstand me. 'flexible' doesn't mean 'agree' .my purpose is "think about it with no prejudice". only that. did you see "twelve angry men"? in this film you can see the flexibility.

12 angry men is about flexibility??? Now I've heard it all. Definitly not a troll

 

[Pbanned]

I don't think there's 100,000 locations, I believe it's about 15,000, so going to 1,000,000 wouldn't be increasing by a factor of 10, it would be more like a factor of 70.

It would be possible, I guess - just impractical? They'd have to have a staff that's much larger than current sized to program the AI for one - imagine having to limit choices for pathing of units to be able to have any unit move without even a super-computer having to slow down to calculate that.

There is about 57 million square miles of land on earth - going to 1 million zones suddenly you're looking at about 57 square miles per zone, or a size of about 7.5 miles square for the average zone (and knowing from Siberia, etc., the zones are not all the same size). That's down from the current 62 miles square for the zones (square root of (57 million divided by 15,000) = 3800 square miles per zone = 62 miles per side)

I'm assuming that with the increase in world scale, would come a decrease in size of the base units to the same scale? if right now you're looking at divisions as the main unit, if you decrease the size of the zones, wouldn't a division now be responsible for several zones? (to keep the same ratio of units to frontage, it would be about 8.5 or so if I am awake enough yet before caffeine to do the math correctly?) So are we getting down to battalion level as the base unit, where we're equipping companies and squads to make those up? You're talking a completely different animal when you're getting down to that level of micro. The OOB from HOI3 was not loved by many, and we're looking at not only having to recreate that, but go even deeper if I'm getting your proposal right....

With a 7.5 mile wide zone, you're also getting into the area where artilliery has a range of more than one zone. The M1 Howitzer had a range of 11 miles, and the M1A1 upped that to 13 miles. We're talking about even with the artillery a third of the way back in the zone, it would be able to hit the front third of the zone 2 zones away - which means that you're going to need a re-write of rules for artillery and being able to hit multiple spaces away?

What you're talking about here would be great for the WWII enthusiast - but it would start to be out of the range of a grand strategic game, and start having to get much more into a tactical game on a global scale. It would no longer be a HOI game, and almost more like the old Panzer Leader or Squad Leader games by Avalon Hill, where you're micromanaging at such a level where you're almost starting to get into LoS rules and things like that.

Assuming travel speeds stay the same (and no reason why they shouldn't) - are we ready for mechanized or motorized units to be going through a zone an hour? (11 mph for motorized would actually be 1.5 zones per hour, but to actually have any speeds over 7.5 mph, would have to either have teleporting units (skipping zones in the middle?) or reduce the base unit of time (hour).

The air force I'm also assuming would be scaled as well? Lots more zones to cover? Even as is, there's very much a whack-a-mole component to the way that air combat occurs. With the top speed of a B-17 being about 287 mph, that would be about 40 'provinces' an hour. How many 'provinces' would be in each air zone? It would require a complete re-working of air rules as well because of the scale - which may or may not be a good idea....

So again - while great for a WWII enthusiast, we're talking about a completely different beast than the HOI series. Would very much rather have the paradox staff working on getting the current HOI IV right than be working on something the scale you're talking about.

hi . your reply is much better than I ever thought. you understand what I want to say. I apologize because I never calculate like this.I only hope for more locations and larger scale . and I don't know that we have only 15,000 location in HOI4.but what do you think about 150,000 location?(every location become ten location). I accept all of your concern.thank you very much

 

[BeauNiddle]

It's been a long time since I did my computer programming degree but the thing you need to keep in mind is algorithm complexity ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation )

Put simply the time it takes to do an algorithm can be calculated based on the number of inputs.

O(1) - algorithm takes constant time regardless of inputs)
O(log(n)) - algorithm takes longer the more inputs but less than linearly
O(n) - algorithm takes a length of time directly proportional to number of inputs. i.e. double the inputs takes twice as long
O(n * log(n)) - algorithm take even longer the more inputs you add
O(n2) - n squared - algorithm takes quadratic time based on inputs - i.e. double the inputs and it takes 4 times as long, triple the inputs and it takes NINE times as long


Pathfinding is generally a O(n * log(n)) algorithm based on the number of possible map positions. Since when the war D-Day happens pretty much every troop from UK, USA, Germany, USSR & friends is fighting and moving around the pathfinding overhead is going to be chronic.

It's nice of you to believe the Paradox programmers can overcome any problem but unfortunately mathematics is a harsh mistress. Without supercomputers your idea is dead in the water.

If it was a turn-based game the idea is possible. In pausable real time it's not.