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Mixxer5

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As far as I can see, there's no possibility right now to show weakness of country otherwise than by looking at ruler. If he/she is strong, much more soldiers come from their vassals and demesne. If they're weak- less. But still, playing as Byzantium and having huge territory is enough to defeat most of rivals. That's not historically plausible. So here are few ideas for "tweaks", that would make game more satisfactory (so maintaining already conquered territories won't be addition to conquering new ones):

1. Legitimacy: It's barely annoyance in Europa Universalis but would fit perfectly here. Usurpers should start with lower legitimacy while legal rulers- with higher. On the other hand, if legal ruler was a tyrant and has been deposed, usurper will be probably well accepted. Low legitimacy means that pretty much anyone in country (but having "main" realm culture!) gets Claim on Throne CB. Of course, more legitimate usurpers will get it faster. But ruler having 100% legitimacy can't be deposed by anyone. Legitimacy also lowers revolt risk and is lowered by acting tyrannical or by weakening dynasty (bastards).

2. Different governments- yeah, I know it's pretty big thing, but right now there's no place for small countries. They're simply eaten in seconds. Piechengs for example- historically Byzantium barely beaten them. In CK2 they're punchbags disappearing few years after start date. In reality during war they had 80k soldiers! That's plenty isn't it? So nomads like Piechengs should have much soldiers- but they shouldn't be able to conquer anyone! In their case, they can only raid enemies, pillage provinces and so on. After some time, they can claim another province- when their population is big enough. At some point though, they'll have to create more centralized government- because such realm will be unstable and hard to maintain. It's just an example- other governments would be Despotic (Byzantium) and Muslim (Muslims ;) ).

3. Country decay- it's somehow similar to Muslim decadence- but more interesting. Principle is the same- higher decay= more problems. Decay is gained (which is BAD) when weak ruler is on throne, new provinces are captured, ruler has been excommunicated or important territory has been lost (for example- Byzantium loses part of Greece). Bigger realm is, faster decay is gained. Decay is lost when ruler is good (better ruler- faster lowering), core territory (same culture) has been reconquered, country decentralized (higher centralization- faster decay). High decay means that armies have low morale, tax rate is lowered, less soldiers come from demesne and vassals. It's very important thing- that means, that capturing everything is no more a good idea.

4. Dividing vassal opinions about ruler and revolt risk- with newly introduced faction system, many realms became war zones. Sometimes Europe looks like mosaic of counties without any central power. It's not historically plausible and no fun. Fixing it should be easy- this idea combined with decay should do well. Rulers traits no longer decides that everyone in realm revolts- ruler can be unpopular, but as long as he doesn't take any action against his vassals, he should be safe (of course some decisions and events making antagonizing vassals tempting should be introduced). In 1.06b Byzantium held well, because weak rulers were deposed very fast and good rulers came. Thus Byzantium blobbed because it already was one of the strongest countries. This idea will prevent this- weak rulers will keep ruling. They'll be only unable to expand realm borders, usually even fighting for preserving them.

5. Government advance- Despotism was more efficient then Feudalism. It had its weaknesses though. Historically rulers tried to gain more power, while their vassals tried to prevent it. In CK2 we can pass laws that picture monarchs power. Highest level of feudalism should be low level of Despotism then. Ruler tries to play "Va Banque" (decision with requirement being on highest level of crown authority) and starts civil war. He loses- he's deposed. He wins- he's despotic (or rather absolute) ruler. Vassals get events- either they fight with king or they become governors (can be appointed by king). Levies become standing armies (less in numbers but more efficient- can be achieved by using retinues system). It'd be also great thing for Byzantium- and restored Roman Empire.
 

Cymsdale

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I disagree with number 4. I think it's fun when blobs explode into pieces and everyone nearby scrambles like kids around a piñata to pick up the pieces. I find that there is some tension between the camps that want blobs to be kept in check and those that seem to hate any type of rebellion mechanic whatsoever.
 

Kaiser Ludwig

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I'm thinking that some event given troops for defensive wars which immediately demobilize upon peace, and are unable to siege provinces outside the de jure duchy/kingdom of the pechenegs could work
 

Mixxer5

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I disagree with number 4. I think it's fun when blobs explode into pieces and everyone nearby scrambles like kids around a piñata to pick up the pieces. I find that there is some tension between the camps that want blobs to be kept in check and those that seem to hate any type of rebellion mechanic whatsoever.

Yeah, that's fun- but I've managed to grab lands from Mesopotamia to Baghdad (playing as Byzantium), when rebellions in Persia started. When I was finished with it (and Persia was still rebelling against Alp Arslan) I moved against Fatimids, crushing them. On the other hand, playing as Crusader states, I was stuck with 99% against duke of Sinai because day later he always surrendered to his Sultan. Such country will still fail to defend itself- it'll just take more time to defeat them. But new CB, ceding as much territories as country conquered would be nice.

I'm thinking that some event given troops for defensive wars which immediately demobilize upon peace, and are unable to siege provinces outside the de jure duchy/kingdom of the pechenegs could work

I don't like idea of completely random event spawning armies. Such event is already in game, introduced with 1.07 patch- it spawns extra soldiers for rebels. And it's not very liked by people here.

P.S: Any other opinions? If they're good, keeping this thread alive would be signal for Paradox to introduce those things to game...
 

paulk205

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For me the #1 unbalancing feature of the game is the ease of winning wars by using mercenaries. Sure, you have to build up a significant war chest beforehand, but once you have a demesne of a couple of provinces that becomes rather easy to do. I also find it very weird that mercenaries are so readily available in the 11th century, and in the same price and numbers as in the 15th. Other than for the Byzantines who were a special case and seriously rich anyway, mercenary companies should be more of a feature of the 14th century and later. If there were a clear connection of mercenary numbers and cost with technology (i.e. only a few are available and are horribly expensive at low tech levels), then it would be more historical and less easy for the silly Count of X to usurp dukedoms left and right by using the same mercenary companies (which also exist for centuries on end).

Factions are also a bit half-baked as an idea, and lead to the human dealing with them in terribly gamey ways (look at the relevant thread). It would be better if the faction system was a pair system. i.e. a pro- and a con- faction for each issue. So, for instance a faction in favour of pretender X should have a loyalist faction lined up against it, or a law changing one having a "conservative" faction allied to the status quo. Obviously relative strengths would fluctuate, and the leaders of each faction side would try to influence supporters in one or the other sides. It would be even more interesting if different classes of vassals supported or opposed contrary issues to each other: hence, a faction in favour a feudal-friendly reform could lead to burghers and/or clergymen taking the other side and so on. Obviously personal opinion of the liege and faction leader would play a role: class should only be a modifier in the likelihood to support or oppose an issue. Again, technology could be a nice way to enable such class consciousness: so an advanced Noble Customs could lead to stronger feudal consciousness and so on.
 
Last edited:

Mixxer5

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For me the #1 unbalancing feature of the game is the ease of winning wars by using mercenaries. Sure, you have to build up a significant war chest beforehand, but once you have a demesne of a couple of provinces that becomes rather easy to do. I also find it very weird that mercenaries are so readily available in the 11th century, and in the same price and numbers as in the 15th. Other than for the Byzantines who were a special case and seriously rich anyway, mercenary companies should be more of a feature of the 14th century and later. If there were a clear connection of mercenary numbers and cost with technology (i.e. only a few are available and are horribly expensive at low tech levels), then it would be more historical and less easy for the silly Count of X to usurp dukedoms left and right by using the same mercenary companies (which also exist for centuries on end).


Yeah... I knew I forget about something- idea about increasing mercs cost is good. Some countries should have more of those available, while some less, though. Same thing for prizes. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more soldiers in the field. Dukes should be able to raise 1000-2000, counts 400-800, kings- depending on realm size, same for emperors. At the same time restricting mercenaries.

Factions are also a bit half-baked as an idea, and lead to the human dealing with them in terribly gamey ways (look at the relevant thread). It would be better if the faction system was a pair system. i.e. a pro- and a con- faction for each issue. So, for instance a faction in favour of pretender X should have a loyalist faction lined up against it, or a law changing one having a "conservative" faction allied to the status quo. Obviously relative strengths would fluctuate, and the leaders of each faction side would try to influence supporters in one or the other sides. It would be even more interesting if different classes of vassals supported or opposed contrary issues to each other: hence, a faction in favour a feudal-friendly reform could lead to burghers and/or clergymen taking the other side and so on. Obviously personal opinion of the liege and faction leader would play a role: class should only be a modifier in the likelihood to support or oppose an issue. Again, technology could be a nice way to enable such class consciousness: so an advanced Noble Customs could lead to stronger feudal consciousness and so on.

Factions are good... At the beginning. Later they're "suicide clubs" as someone already said. They join factions only because they can- not because anything good will come from this. I don't know why, but I was sure that such pro-ruler faction was supposed to be introduced (wasn't it mentioned in, or under, some dev diary?). Expanding technology role would be great- I don't have any real idea for it though, so if You've got something more than what You already written here- go on.


Yeah, nice read. Interesting ideas.

Thanks ;)
 

Jamey

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P.S: Any other opinions? If they're good, keeping this thread alive would be signal for Paradox to introduce those things to game...
I mostly play Project Balance, which increased the early strength of pagans while taking away their Holy War CB. This makes them tough to blitz in the early game without making them expand due to excess troops.
 

Mixxer5

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4. Dividing vassal opinions about ruler and revolt risk- with newly introduced faction system, many realms became war zones. Sometimes Europe looks like mosaic of counties without any central power. It's not historically plausible and no fun. Fixing it should be easy- this idea combined with decay should do well. Rulers traits no longer decides that everyone in realm revolts- ruler can be unpopular, but as long as he doesn't take any action against his vassals, he should be safe (of course some decisions and events making antagonizing vassals tempting should be introduced). In 1.06b Byzantium held well, because weak rulers were deposed very fast and good rulers came. Thus Byzantium blobbed because it already was one of the strongest countries. This idea will prevent this- weak rulers will keep ruling. They'll be only unable to expand realm borders, usually even fighting for preserving them.

One small addition to this point- right now, traits barely open new options for events. Instead, they should force some options instead. So some events should be overhauled and new ones should be added. Being proud/humble should make big difference, lazy king should be less likely to declare war on neighbors, sometimes even neglecting defending country.



I mostly play Project Balance, which increased the early strength of pagans while taking away their Holy War CB. This makes them tough to blitz in the early game without making them expand due to excess troops.

Balance mods (like CK2+ for example) are often very good, but they balance mostly characters, never realms itself. Countries can be in terrible state when one ruler rules, and in perfect condition day after his death, when much better one emerges. It's non-historical as recovering from such disasters should take more time.
 

Malebranche

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I agree with most of this. But decay should in my opinion be gained at loss of troops, sieges and at revolts, both noble and peasant, instead of just at the conquest of provinces. And independence factions should only be possible at high decay, they are way to common in the game. Wrong cultures should start factions to acquire secondary titles.
 

Sam L

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Blobs should be kept in check but it has to make sense. One of the most annoying things I see is when someone wants and gets independence only to be declared war upon by Muslims or something.
 

Mixxer5

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I agree with most of this. But decay should in my opinion be gained at loss of troops, sieges and at revolts, both noble and peasant, instead of just at the conquest of provinces. And independence factions should only be possible at high decay, they are way to common in the game. Wrong cultures should start factions to acquire secondary titles.

My suggestions are open to discuss- more methods of losing amd gaining decay are
good IMO.

I believe 1, 3 and 5 would be enough. Do you think we'll get them in 1.07c or 1.08?

Well- I don't suppose that Paradox will introduce those things ever if community won't push enough ;) anyway- not in short time.



Blobs should be kept in check but it has to make sense. One of the most annoying things I see is when someone wants and gets independence only to be declared war upon by Muslims or something.

It's mostly about fixing suicidal factions- which I hope Paradox is working on nevertheless.


For what it's worth, with the new AI and the new faction system and the new Mongols the late game is a lot more challenging than it used to be.

Personally I find game rather ridiculous than hard- factions are created and joined without any particular reason- just to have some fight.



EDIT: As far as I can see this thread have plenty views and few responses. If You people agree with my suggestions (fully or partially), please write here. It gives some chance that Paradox will see it and (maybe) add those things to game.
 
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