The independent daimyos only seem to get 2.5 morale and 2.5 infantry combat from their government form
Things revealed about 1.20 from the MP (Tributary system confirmed; can ask for monarch points!!!)
- Thread starter Wagonlitz
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Actually they get a bonus depending on their government rank, startking from 2.5/2.5 at duchy.
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The Celestial Empire doesn't seem to come with the 50% autonomy-modifier anymore. One of Ming's provinces only had about 1,2 autonomy in the stream-session, they also managed to field around 90K units pre-1500. I'm really happy about this.
The Ming AI also seems to like a more peaceful tall game, only waging wars when tributaries stop paying them. I'm still not entirely happy with the faction-mechanic staying in place, I hope it gets a little update at least, the estates other nations have are a little more fun in my opinion.
All in all it seems that Paradox decided to remove the handicap Ming had by way of making them reliant on keeping their neigbouris as tributaries, thus hampering AI Ming's ability to expand while still keeping them strong. An excellent solution to the Ming-problem of the last few years.
The Ming AI also seems to like a more peaceful tall game, only waging wars when tributaries stop paying them. I'm still not entirely happy with the faction-mechanic staying in place, I hope it gets a little update at least, the estates other nations have are a little more fun in my opinion.
All in all it seems that Paradox decided to remove the handicap Ming had by way of making them reliant on keeping their neigbouris as tributaries, thus hampering AI Ming's ability to expand while still keeping them strong. An excellent solution to the Ming-problem of the last few years.
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It would be a shame to add access other nations... The chinese tribute system was a unique government (?) form over the asian nations at the time, when the dynasties of chinese were great and they thought that too... (sorry for my English! It will be a great update, i hope not dlc... The last few was hilarious)So in the dev MP stream Johan just confirmed that Ming has a tributary system where they can ask surrounding countries to be their tributaries. A tributary has independent diplomacy, but can't DOW Ming. Ming can also demand whatever they want of adm, dip, or mil powers or money.
Johan refuses to comment on whether other countries, e.g. the Great/Golden Horse, also gets access to the tributary mechanics.
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Should it really stop them though? Historically China shut itself in, but if things had been different (probably quite different) they could have been expansionist. The Tang bordered the Abbasids and were expansionist afaik. And who's to know what could have happened if Zheng He hadn't been stopped.
Now I'm not at all knowledgeable enough to say which things should be required for a mentality change in China, but had there been a mentality change I don't see how it couldn't have started expanding again.
Though, again, I don't know much about Chinese history, so perhaps my above points were completely ignorant and worthless.
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At this point it seems almost certain that it will apply to at least also Japan/the daimyos, since one of the Japanese players in the latest session went to the Americas and made several of the tribes in CA tributaries.
Now it might be changed whether or not it applies only to China, when they have got feedback on how it works to allow it for other countries too, but at this point in time it seems almost certain that it's not China exclusive.
If tributaries are necessary to keep yourself stable, then yes.
Probably something to do with the new dragon icon and the 'decree'-flag that is visible in some screenshots featuring Ming.
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Weren't decrees just the new edicts though? If so then I don't think decrees will effect the stability of Ming per se. Though who knows, there might be an edict which Ming needs to have active to be stable, but which requires loads of tributaries.
I'm expecting it mainly to be the dragon mechanic which will be what's linked to tributaries and which reigns Ming in.
Seems needlessly confusing to have two names for edicts. From what I remember from the streams, decrees are only show up when they switch to Ming. My guess is that with the new Dragon Mana symbol and decrees we'll get something akin to the HRE menu, just with one tag. Perhaps it's a gameplay abstraction of Tianxia we'll see when we click on the Dragon.
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Yes, I thought that too, that both are related in some way we'll see soon enough.
Ming at this point was pretty much incapable of expanding due to stuff that EU4 doesn't model. Really I think the best possible change to EU4 would be to model those things (mainly logistics and difficulties of communication over vast distances.) a lot of China's outer territories were barriers to their own expansion in ways that could not be surmounted during the time period of EU4. It would be pretty unrealistic for them to expand beyond some minor adventures against neighboring minor threats in game.
What if Ming doesn't get monarch points and can only get them through tributaries?
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That seems extremely unlikely considering how little they get and Ming wasn't reliant on tributaries.
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Ming was pretty expansionistic before 1444, especially during the reign of Yongle (1402-22), Ming managed to establish some kind of indirect rule in most of Manchuria, conquered and incorporated Vietnam as a province, and repeatly invaded Mongolia. Yongle got crazy stats in the game (5/6/6), but we'll never be able to play as him.
The real watershed between the outward aggressive Ming and the inward defensive Ming came in 1449 as the Tumu crisis. The shitty emperor we get in 1444, Zhu Qizhen (1/1/1), was defeated and captured in a major campaign against Oirats, whom then advanced south to besiege Beijing unsuccessfully in 1449. Tumu crisis was important in three ways:
a) It changed the balance of power in the north, forced the severely damaged Ming military to take a more defensive role.
b) It unleashed a period of political turmoil in China. Since his shitty heir Zhu Qiyu (1/1/2) was crowned emperor in the power vaccum after Qizhen's capture, Qizhen's release in 1450 led to clashes between the former emperor and his brother and the eventual restoration of Qizhen in 1457 as well as purging of Qiyu's supporters.
c) It diminished the influence of military aristocracy that emerged from early Ming expansion (particularly Yongle era), alllowing the conservative and anti-military confucian bureaucracy to dominate the politics until the very end of Ming dynasty,
So, Ming in 1444 havent decided which route she would embark upon, and that leaves a great deal of historical uncertainty to the hand of Mr. Human.
There is no event in the game modelling Tumu crisis which i hope would be changed in 1.20 patch. From the current chinese events description, I got the impression that paradox believes end of Zheng He's voyages was the key event, but it is just the consequence of bureaucrat faction taking control after Tumu crisis. The real, fundamental change happened with Tumu crisis.
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Actual incentives to go tall sound like exactly what China needs and deserves, rather than the current setup where the Ming are somehow terrible at governing their own states.
In effect, Celestial Empire as of 1.19 is a regime that forces you to go wide: the 50% autonomy floor halves the benefit from developing your homeland and makes it pointless to create full cores, while doing nothing at all to reduce the benefit of acquiring a mass of new territorial cores. Moreover, the -5 unrest from Mandate of Heaven is overkill for China proper, but great for silencing dissent from whatever foreigners you conquer. Given the history of the country, it doesn't make any sense at all.
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If it really was logistics and communication difficulties then how come the Tang was able to operate and conquer into Central Asia?
For the Tang? Three words: The Tarim Basin.
Vital for trade with the West.
The Ming Dynasty and its administration was not really interested in conquests anymore. In preventing the Mongols, Jurchens, Tibetans... etc. from launching assaults against them, yes. But not by actually keeping a well-functioning administration there.