Things revealed about 1.20 from the MP (Tributary system confirmed; can ask for monarch points!!!)

[Golladan]

So? There were multiple times when there were contesting Emperors, most illustrative example being during Song, when there were 3 legitimate Emperors at the same time. Even after Jin took whole North China, Song was still respected as an Empire.

Not to mention that being an Emperor of China without owning anything in China is simply bollocks.

So it is not just a "cheap-shot" as the other poster called it.

And... didn't the Yuan continue calling themselves Emperors of China even after they had retreated to Mongolia?

Plus from what we can see in the screenshot, this newly crowned Emperor is losing Mandate.

 

[Warial]

So it is not just a "cheap-shot" as the other poster called it.

And... didn't the Yuan continue calling themselves Emperors of China even after they had retreated to Mongolia?

Plus from what we can see in the screenshot, this newly crowned Emperor is losing Mandate.

The problem has two faces, first it's too easy to usurp the mandate, second it's too easy to lose one. Even more if Dai Viet were to lose the mandate soon after, why they were even able to take it?

Mongols after the fall of Yuan sparingly used the name themselves, only sometimes in dilpomacy with China and when Dayan Khan tried to resurrect the khanate.

 

[Golladan]

The problem has two faces, first it's too easy to usurp the mandate, second it's too easy to lose one.

And you're basing this on a stream were a bunch of human players ganged on an AI Ming that, according to one of the developers, happened while Ming was at its weakest, in a war that the developers were preparing themselves for?

 

[Warial]

And you're basing this on a stream were a bunch of human players ganged on an AI Ming that, according to one of the developers, happened while Ming was at its weakest, in a war that the developers were preparing themselves for?

Yeah, we are all aren't we? And the effect is clearly visible, Ming mostly intact, Dai Viet controlling nothing in China, but being the emperor.

EDIT: Even though Ming soon after imploded, it's still unfathomable that Dai Viet took the Emperor's mantle.

 

[kitemasaki]

Yeah, we are all aren't we? And the effect is clearly visible, Ming mostly intact, Dai Viet controlling nothing in China, but being the emperor.

Sums it up completely.
Not sure why the other poster isn't able to comprehend this.

 

[Golladan]

Yeah, we are all aren't we? And the effect is clearly visible, Ming mostly intact, Dai Viet controlling nothing in China, but being the emperor.

This doesn't look like a Mostly intact Ming to me.

 

[Warial]

This doesn't look like a Mostly intact Ming to me.

It controls Nanjing and the heart of China. What claim does Dai Viet have to the emperorship? Manchus and Korea at least control provinces in Beizhili, control Beijing. Dai Viet has nothing.

EDIT: Anyway I was talking about Ming at the point when the Emperorship was usurped.

 

[kitemasaki]

This doesn't look like a Mostly intact Ming to me.

#AlternativeFacts

Nice try, but it is obvious the discussion was around when they got the Mandate, not after the fact. Re-watch the feed, check your facts and come back again.

 

[Rabid]

#AlternativeFacts

Nice try, but it is obvious the discussion was around when they got the Mandate, not after the fact. Re-watch the feed, check your facts and come back again.

I mostly agree with your points but having a country absolutely teeming with rebels and enemy troops is exactly the sort of time that you should be losing the Mandate of Heaven.

Perhaps a better way to do this would be to have the war simply take away the Mandate of the current emperor, and then if another state becomes sufficiently powerful and influential it can take over the vacant spot? This would allow something of a 'three kingdoms' type situation where nobody is clearly the dominant force in China.

Though I suspect that this implementation would be more contentious and technically difficult; I expect to see some territorial requirements added. This is why they do the dev MPs after all; to see if newly implemented mechanics can be improved (this one certainly can)

 

[Warial]

I mostly agree with your points but having a country absolutely teeming with rebels and enemy troops is exactly the sort of time that you should be losing the Mandate of Heaven.

Perhaps a better way to do this would be to have the war simply take away the Mandate of the current emperor, and then if another state becomes sufficiently powerful and influential it can take over the vacant spot? This would allow something of a 'three kingdoms' type situation where nobody is clearly the dominant force in China.

Though I suspect that this implementation would be more contentious and technically difficult; I expect to see some territorial requirements added. This is why they do the dev MPs after all; to see if newly implemented mechanics can be improved (this one certainly can)

That would be a better solution, yes. Though still I dislike the ability to take the mandate in one war. Losing the mandate should be a result of losing the hold over China, not the other way around.

 

[Wagonlitz]

according to one of the developers, happened while Ming was at its weakest

I might have forgotten something, but how was Ming at it's weakest when Wiz attacked?
Remember that Ming was fighting a two front war and as Johan noted they very well could have been able to fight back one of the invasions. And indeed they also, at times, were pushing back both of them. The problem was that when that happened they had to focus their troops and hence the other invasion picked up steam and they had to loosen the counter punch.

#AlternativeFacts

Nice try, but it is obvious the discussion was around when they got the Mandate, not after the fact. Re-watch the feed, check your facts and come back again.

It's true that Ming only imploded due to the rebels cropping up as a result of the war, and hence imploded after losing the mandate. They weren't in touched when Dai Viet stole it though, since Wiz peaced out first and hence the Manchu and Korea territory loss happened first.
I agree that it looks too easy to snatch it though.

 

[Golladan]

I might have forgotten something, but how was Ming at it's weakest when Wiz attacked?
Remember that Ming was fighting a two front war and as Johan noted they very well could have been able to fight back one of the invasions. And indeed they also, at times, were pushing back both of them. The problem was that when that happened they had to focus their troops and hence the other invasion picked up steam and they had to loosen the counter punch.

Weak is relative here, we hit Ming whilst he was at his weakest, he was in a war to make a tributary, he had zero manpower, a quarter of his forces were mercs and he had started taking loans. Ming was literally at the point where he was about to consolidate his power, after he won the war he would've stablised completely.

Our combined forces were about 165k, which was more than his standing army at that time and we'd been preparing for the war so we had the manpower to deal with losses.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Mandata of heaven is boosted by having tributaries.

 

[Wagonlitz]

And the screenshots from this week's MP.

Meritocracy and what affects it. Am I misremembering or doesn't legitimacy have a -5 base? If so then interesting that meritocracy only is a -2 base. I wonder what boni it gives when above 50.

Artillery barrage costs 25 mil.

Several countries have a new alert; anybody have an idea what it might be?

And we finally managed to be shown splendor gain. Appears that you always get a base of +1 and then +1 per objective.

Since when have you been able to get negative score? @Meneth what was it that gave you said negative score?

Modifiers for the mandate of heaven. Prosperity appears to add to the mandate---wonder what that non tributary thing is (from the last image it's clear it's from non tributary neighbours.). Also apparently you need to be stab 1 or above to not get minus dragon mana from stab given how +1 stab gives +0.00 dragon mana. And it would appear that each tributary gives 6.66 dragon mana.

And the dragon mana itself.

 

[Hessian Mercenary]

artillery barrage is a paid feature and lets you create a breach for 25 military points (50 min in the stream)

Emperor of China gets permanent claims on the region (think that was already mentioned before), it's after 1:48

shortly before 1:50 there's a lot of new stuff regarding the Mandate:
- Seems like it grows with Tributaries, positive Stability and Prosperity and decreases with Devastation and Non-Tributaries
- Also first celestial reform increases Meritocracy gain which seems needed to pass decrees, and third reform is -0.05 monthly autonomy
- expand palace bureaucrazy costs 20 Meritocracy and gives -10% dev cost and -10% coring cost

Edit: too slow

 

[Meneth]

Since when have you been able to get negative score? @Meneth what was it that gave you said negative score?

Negative score has been a thing for a while; people lost score last campaign too.
I used to own one of the provinces in Vijay's victory card, so I lose half of its value over time.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Negative score has been a thing for a while; people lost score last campaign too.
I used to own one of the provinces in Vijay's victory card, so I lose half of its value over time.

So if you at some point during the game owned a province which later, possibly after you stopped owning it, becomes part of a victory card you lose score?

 

[Meneth]

So if you at some point during the game owned a province which later, possibly after you stopped owning it, becomes part of a victory card you lose score?

I'm not sure if it only applies if you held it after it became a VC or not.
In this case though, it became a VC and then Vijay took it from me.

 

[Hessian Mercenary]

It also seems like higher Meritocracy increases advisor costs, but every advisor also increases Meritocracy gain so you could pass decrees faster

 

[I'm gaming]

Judging from what has been discovered, these two things regarding Chinese Emperor system are horribly annoying.

1. Being able to become a Chinese Emperor without being Confucianist and having certain portion of Chinese provinces.

2. Tributary states not getting benefit from paying tributary except military defence and technology cost bonus, though they had massive benefit from trading at China in real history.


Oh man.. And Japan now has 1/3 development of China, 3.5x more development of Korea. No East Asian wants this.