They weren't that civilized back then

[Alexander Seil]

Anyone else finds it somehow unsettling that everyone starts at the same tech level in the demo? Especially military tech.? Everyone is at level 6 as far as I can see :wacko: Apparently, Johan was right and the entire Greek world wasn't that civilized at all, seeing how their military organization and level of development in every area of human endeavor is ranked the same with that of the German barbarians.

"Cultural imperialism" aside, I think we can all agree that at least the Romans and the Greeks had more advanced architectural technology, if nothing else. This really better be fixed at some point

 

[Hallsten]

Let's not judge the game's historicity before it's released...

 

[shasla6]

Typical.

 

[unmerged(49112)]

Hey, it is all about the total "dynamism" and eye candy. Who cares about "historical accuracy".

 

[nodrownboy]

My guess(hope) is that this is just something in the demo, and that there will be a little more diversity come the full game.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I'm assuming that the demo is based on the gold build, which, I think, is a rather natural assumption.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well these types of things should be easily moddable.

 

[Hallsten]

Again: let's see what the full release looks like first...
Also, a first patch is most likely to expect within a few weeks of the first release, and that will take care of a lot of minor hiccups that have been discovered since going gold.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Yeah, but ideally it would be Paradox doing it, because then you can test, in an organized manner, which distribution of technology is balanced. It's not like Polybius tells us that Rome in such and such year had military tech 5. It is also rather disturbing in principle, because this means that something that could be and should be a major difference between various factions is left out.

 

[Snall]

Yeah but the larger factions will GAIN tech a lot faster, so it would make the disparity even more strongly felt a few decades into the game...

 

[unmerged(1823)]

"tech level" and "what benefits you have from tech" is not the same thing

 

[Sol Invictus]

That sounds encouraging.

 

[Alexander Seil]

However, it's not entirely clear how to reconcile the equality of tech levels at any given start date and the fact that they won't be equal at any time after the grand campaign starts.

 

[Calantyr]

From looking at the files I'm pretty sure you won't get much benefit from techs unless your civilisation score is high enough to unlock the bonuses...

... course the demo doesn't work for me so I can't test this. Damnit.

 

[kristoff]

Anyone else finds it somehow unsettling that everyone starts at the same tech level in the demo? Especially military tech.? Everyone is at level 6 as far as I can see :wacko: Apparently, Johan was right and the entire Greek world wasn't that civilized at all, seeing how their military organization and level of development in every area of human endeavor is ranked the same with that of the German barbarians.

"Cultural imperialism" aside, I think we can all agree that at least the Romans and the Greeks had more advanced architectural technology, if nothing else. This really better be fixed at some point

Start EU3, choose any scenario and compare tech levels of countries. You'll quickly realize that every country within the same techgroup (latin, eastern ect.) starts with the same levels - it is so in every scenario. So savage Crimean Tartars or dirty poor Moldovian hospodars are as advanced as Poland and so on. I bet it's exactly the same in EU:R. That's how you cut costs of historical research and speed up game's development. Sad, but true.

 

[King]

In fact the inventions you get from tech are linked to civilisation value. So uncivilised countries only get bonuses to light infantry, while the more civilised countries get better heavy infantry. If you find this unsettling you can of course mod it.

 

[ForzaA]

I bet it's exactly the same in EU:R. That's how you cut costs of historical research and speed up game's development. Sad, but true.

No amount of historical research is going to help you create the "perfect" technological timeline for any country.. Just take the printing press (Gutenberg style) .. Does the idea warrant a techlevel? the first working prototype? the first book copied? And on what day exactly were the three?
And who gets the tech first? second?

Besides the fact that even if Paradox somehow did manage to contract a couple thousand PhD students to figure it out (1 PhD thesis covers roughly 30-40 years in one country, and that seems a generous estimate), Paradox would still get arguments about whether the "savage Crimean Tartars" or "dirty poor Moldovian hospodars" really DID achieve the same level of technological development the "Enlightened Poles" achieved five centuries earlier...

 

[kristoff]

No amount of historical research is going to help you create the "perfect" technological timeline for any country.. Just take the printing press (Gutenberg style) .. Does the idea warrant a techlevel? the first working prototype? the first book copied? And on what day exactly were the three?
And who gets the tech first? second?

Besides the fact that even if Paradox somehow did manage to contract a couple thousand PhD students to figure it out (1 PhD thesis covers roughly 30-40 years in one country, and that seems a generous estimate), Paradox would still get arguments about whether the "savage Crimean Tartars" or "dirty poor Moldovian hospodars" really DID achieve the same level of technological development the "Enlightened Poles" achieved five centuries earlier...

Perfect? Who said something about a game perfectly reflecting history? It's impossible - contrary to trying to make it as historical as possible. Don't be also ironic about "enlighten" Poles, because I'm far away from being nationalistic here. I prefer playing underdogs anyway. It's all about making playing DIFFERENT factions DIFFERENT. I just don't want PI games to become more and more similar to Civilization seriers - a sandbox game in quasi-historical costume. I don't know also if PI payed thousands of PhDs to work on EU2, but somehow they tried to produce a much better map & historical setup than those working on EU3 and - one could think - having access to previous team & community experience...

 

[King]

Ok this arguement has goen quite far enough.

Observe

phalanx_deeping = {
	trigger = {
		land_tech = 20
		capital_scope = {civilization_value = 60}
		invention = phalanx_charge 
		has_country_flag = hellenistic_warfare
	}
	effect = {
	}
	heavy_infantry_defensive = 0.03			
}

and

veteran_centurions = {
	trigger = {
		land_tech = 20
		capital_scope = {civilization_value = 60}
		has_country_flag = roman_warfare
	}
	effect = {
	}
	heavy_infantry_discipline = 0.05
}

and finally

Country_event = {

	id = 1001
	
	trigger = {
		capital_scope = { civilization_value = 60 }
		land_tech = 13
		NOT = {
			OR = {
				has_country_flag = roman_warfare
				has_country_flag = hellenistic_warfare
			}
		}
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {

		months = 12

	}

	title = "EVTNAME1001"
	desc = "EVTDESC1001"
	

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA1001"
		ai_chance = {
			factor = 25
			modifier = {
				factor = 3
				NOT =  {
					OR = {
						tag = ROM
						religion_group = pagan
					}
				}
			}
		}
		set_country_flag = hellenistic_warfare 
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTB1001"
		ai_chance = {
			factor = 25
			modifier = {
				factor = 3
				OR = {
					tag = ROM
					religion_group = pagan
				}
			}
		}
		set_country_flag = roman_warfare
	}
}

are we a bit happier now?

 

[ForzaA]

Perfect? Who said something about a game perfectly reflecting history? It's impossible - contrary to trying to make it as historical as possible.

..And in that I believe the tech groups [and occasional 'bonus' building] (in EU3) and the civilisation values (in Rome) are about as much as you can expect without throwing a large amount of money/time at a rather small issue.

Don't be also ironic about "enlighten" Poles, because I'm far away from being nationalistic here.

You do realise that just because there's few or no Crimean Tartars or Moldovian hospodars around you don't *have* to call them savage or dirt(y) poor..
Besides which, them being "savage" or "dirt poor" means that even if they have access to the same knowledge as other nations, they won't be able to exploit it as much.. In Rome, this is directly represented by the civilisation value (and it's link to various invention events), in EU3 primarily through techgroups [yes, you could give every country it's own techgroup if you are so inclined]

I prefer playing underdogs anyway. It's all about making playing DIFFERENT factions DIFFERENT. I just don't want PI games to become more and more similar to Civilization seriers - a sandbox game in quasi-historical costume.

Well, I'm happy we agree there.. Civilization and Paradox games should (and do) occupy different niches of the market...
But I don't think starting some nations on the same tech level is much of a threat in this regard (due to a lot of other factors also affecting how a nation plays)