RWGreening

Corporal
40 Badges
Feb 21, 2016
43
69
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
ive purged entire star systems of one species... thats pretty gruesome if you ask me, ive also wiped out entire families becuase one member joined a revolt, ive murdered tens of thousands of natives in the hope of one day colonizing their lands, and ive sent in suicide paratroopers into Britannia as germany just to see how long they would survive, less than 3 days if your wondering lol. paradox, giving me the tools to play out my sadistic thoughts
 

Heradite

Captain
100 Badges
Aug 7, 2007
391
78
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
Genocide for example. Or even accepting/allowing people under your command to rape, pillage and loot. -Probably, we can pillage and loot but not rape.

Mass Effect (I think the second one) series had an option of wiping out an alien species or letting it live: that's genocide! As for pillage and looting, you can pillage in plenty of Paradox strategy games. As for looting, that's pretty much every RPG ever.
 

jmr5125

Recruit
42 Badges
Feb 4, 2012
7
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Majesty 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris
Mass Effect (I think the second one) series had an option of wiping out an alien species or letting it live: that's genocide! As for pillage and looting, you can pillage in plenty of Paradox strategy games. As for looting, that's pretty much every RPG ever.

Genocide: Yes, Mass Effect allows you to choose an option that will lead, probably, to the death of a species -- in the future. That's rather different then, say, "OK, we are going to round up all the elves and put them to work in the mines until they die horrible deaths", and then have mechanics where the player is responsible for building public support for the policy, dealing with guards who oppose this plan, finding and raiding hidden enclaves of elves, and so forth. The later is what is probably not going to be in this game.

"You can engage in pillage in plenty of Paradox strategy games": There is an enormous difference between providing the player with a wide-open sandbox where they can choose to act in evil, but mostly abstract, ways, versus a closed world RPG where someone has to design hand-crafted quest lines that allow the player to carry out truly heinous actions. Now, if this was a 4x game, then yes, evil would be a real option, but only because the scale of 4x games makes individual atrocities very abstract.

On the subject of looting: There is a good deal of difference between looting foes marked with a handy red circle who attacked you first and looting innocents under color of law ("That's a nice sword there -- why don't you give it to me as a gift?") The latter is what probably isn't going to be in this game.

There are two ways to look at the problem:

1) Do you believe that a game that allowed the player the option to do any of the following would sell very well?
- Introduce slavery into a region that previously didn't have slavery by corrupting (or silencing) influential voices who speak out against slavery, procuring and training slaves, providing security for auctions, and hunting down and recovering slaves for their rightful owners?
- Forcible rape and torture of innocents by the PC (without in-game negative consequences).
- Using gladiatorial combat as a means to pacify a population ("bread and circus") by setting up rigged (for maximum bloodlust / effect) fights of various descriptions
- Initiate, organize, and execute genocide against an obviously /innocent/ race or species.
2) Even if you believe such a game could be a financial success, do you believe that the writers and developers at Obsidian would be willing to /write/ the dialog and other UI elements that would be required to implement the above?

In my opinion, the answer to both of the above questions is "no". This doesn't mean it won't be a bad game -- there is still considerable room for a somewhat darker game without dipping into "true evil" as described above -- but it does make the "You are a representative of an /evil/ empire who has won the battle" somewhat misleading. More accurate (but less exciting) would likely be "You are a representative of an /aggressive/ empire who has won the battle".
 

Silfae

Colonel
31 Badges
Nov 4, 2013
1.199
297
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • PDXCon 2017 Awards Winner
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Genocide: Yes, Mass Effect allows you to choose an option that will lead, probably, to the death of a species -- in the future. That's rather different then, say, "OK, we are going to round up all the elves and put them to work in the mines until they die horrible deaths", and then have mechanics where the player is responsible for building public support for the policy, dealing with guards who oppose this plan, finding and raiding hidden enclaves of elves, and so forth. The later is what is probably not going to be in this game.
Yes, that's more on the line of the grey vs grey choice that was talked about before, you're not choosing who to kill, you're choosing who to save, with the destruction of the other species/community/faction being an unfortunate collateral damage of your choice, which you cannot do anything against.
A pretty common set up for Bioware decisions, in fact, to the point of having become somewhat repetitive at this point.

1) Do you believe that a game that allowed the player the option to do any of the following would sell very well?
- Introduce slavery into a region that previously didn't have slavery by corrupting (or silencing) influential voices who speak out against slavery, procuring and training slaves, providing security for auctions, and hunting down and recovering slaves for their rightful owners?
- Forcible rape and torture of innocents by the PC (without in-game negative consequences).
- Using gladiatorial combat as a means to pacify a population ("bread and circus") by setting up rigged (for maximum bloodlust / effect) fights of various descriptions
- Initiate, organize, and execute genocide against an obviously /innocent/ race or species.
2) Even if you believe such a game could be a financial success, do you believe that the writers and developers at Obsidian would be willing to /write/ the dialog and other UI elements that would be required to implement the above?
Obsidian has precedent in this regard, which is why I keep some hope for this game. Not many games today do such things, especially in the mainstream releases, sure, but there are examples in Obsidian's history.

In KotOR II (by Obsidian), you go to Nar Shaddaa, which has a pre-existing slave culture. You can choose to either help the refugees better their position, or help the local criminals to make their lives even worse. There are several occasions when you do this, you can force, out of desperation, a local leader to surrender its entire community of poor (and never portraied as bad) refugees into servitude to a local crime lord.
There's another example of a family of refugees whose husband has fled to avoid endangering his wife and daughter after getting in debt with the Hutts (who kidnapped and enslaved the underage daughter anyway). You can both manipulate the guy into abandoning his family entirely rather than going back (and giving him the money he needed) and go to the mother, still crying for her missing little girl, and convince her into selling herself into slavery to pay off the rest of the debt (with the excuse that at least "she'll be reunited in slavery with her daughter").

In Mask of the Betrayer (also by Obsidian) there's so many worse things that you can do, even to your own companions (and especially the good-aligned ones), it would be too long for me to list them all. You can deal with slavers, again, most notably, you can buy a kid from an ogre at one point, then offer him as food to a cannibal, just to get ahead in a line. In alternative, you can have said cannibal eat a piece of a companion of your chosing (without their consent).
You can devour the soul of a good animal spirit and fashion his hide to create an unholy undead abomination.
You can force the tortured soul of a man to brutally kill his one true love, who is also the mother of one of your companions (right as she watches in pain and disgust as well).
You can kill the angelic grandfather of another of your companions right as she watches (who had only come down from the heavens to take his grandchild back home, never to return), then leave her, your Neutral Good companion who has been with you since from the start, to be collected by demons.

All of these events happen in non-isometric RPGs, with modeled characters, who have face expressions and full voice acting.
 

jmr5125

Recruit
42 Badges
Feb 4, 2012
7
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Majesty 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris
Agreed -- if anyone is willing to take a chance on a RPG with a truly evil protagonist, it would be Obisidan. And the fact that it is explicitly marketed as a game with an evil protagonist may give them more flexibility than they otherwise would have.

But I still think it is very unlikely that the (very abstract) types of evil that you can do in 4x games, or even the (much less abstract) evil options in offered in dynasty games like the various other Paradox titles mentioned in this thread, is likely to be available in this game. Definitely hoping that I'm wrong on that, though: ideally, I'd like to have options that are so "evil" that I don't select them even though I know that I will receive in game reward for choosing them. MotB came pretty close (based on my recollections)...
 

Silfae

Colonel
31 Badges
Nov 4, 2013
1.199
297
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • PDXCon 2017 Awards Winner
  • BATTLETECH
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Definitely hoping that I'm wrong on that, though: ideally, I'd like to have options that are so "evil" that I don't select them even though I know that I will receive in game reward for choosing them. MotB came pretty close (based on my recollections)...
Yes, truly evil choices empower good choices. Even if only some players pick them, they make the other choices more meaningful; if the character is not forced to do go, there is more satisfaction in "doing the right thing", because you know that you could have chosen not to do it at all, whereas in many recent games the choice is on whether doing it happily or doing it begrudgingly, but doing it always nonetheless.
 

Bolachinha

Second Lieutenant
54 Badges
May 13, 2016
141
187
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
He had a half sister. He might have had a daughter, but i can't find anything on her.
He had Uncles. Alois Hitler, same dad different mom. Theres a famous nephew at the time that was a parasite. This nephew was half german half english, before the war he tried to blackmail Hitler if he didnt give him money, Hitler even gave him a job in the Reich. During the war he went to the US and started dissing Hitler and tried to make a living of it, he made some military propaganda ads but was forgot in the end. Theres plenty of Hitlers living in the US, maybe not direct descents but family members
 

AradoX

Second Lieutenant
65 Badges
Sep 8, 2010
163
76
  • Empire of Sin
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Surviving Mars
  • PDXCON 2018 "The Emperor"
  • PDXCon 2019 "Baron"
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • VtM - Bloodlines 2 Blood Moon Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
Yes, truly evil choices empower good choices. Even if only some players pick them, they make the other choices more meaningful; if the character is not forced to do go, there is more satisfaction in "doing the right thing", because you know that you could have chosen not to do it at all, whereas in many recent games the choice is on whether doing it happily or doing it begrudgingly, but doing it always nonetheless.

Yes, exactly. I'm quite tired of the railroading in other games - even if I might have gone the same route given the choice.