These will be fixed for the sake of balance?

[Yaromir]

Interesting points Bad Vlad, but I would prefer some clarifications.

What did go lucky for Germany?

No response from Rheinland occupation?
Munich treaty?
No response to Czechoslovakia occupation?

Aren't you (and your professor) oversimplifying things, A LOT?

Yes, UK had considerably better strategic position, but did it have national unity? Could the British society rallied as effectively towards war as German was?

We can all agree, I hope, that Hitler had a sort of mythical hold on the German society and its social flows. Same cannot be said for France&UK.

Somehow I don't see the social mood in UK bearing the call "Let's fight for Czechoslovakia!" (in fact, top answers would be "wtf is that?" and "wtf should I care?")

It's not just the number of resources that matters, social mood is also paramount.

Ultimately, what is more important than resources, is the governments ability to mobilize those resources for war.

***
You are also discounting the Tactical Genius. Hannibal repeatedly routed Roman armies of superior numbers, training and equipment. Tactical Genius trumps all that.

***
As for policies to oppressed Slavic masses. Just because they were nazis didn't mean they had to have Brutal policies in occupied areas. Mind you there were Ukrainian and later Russian divisions fighting on German side. Not to mention the Bulgarian,Slovak and Croatian troops, those are slavs, yes? They were fine enough to fight along side German ubermensch.

I would very much like to hear from you actual events and how they could have gone wrong for Germany.

 

[ticorico]

hannibal eventually lost. more to the point the fact of the matter is if the french alone would have stepped in in defence of czechs or austria and escpecially reoccupation germany would have crumbled this should be put in the game somehow as in a ic penalty if the french stand up.

 

[unmerged(36286)]

What? The US produced 167 aircraft carriers. The Japanese produced 16. Even if Japan had had 15 Battles of Midway go their way, it would have left the odds at 107 - 1. And Japan would still be out of fuel and pilots.

That's true. Japan staked the Pacific War on battle of Midway, but it did not have the same meaning for the US. The US would have made up whatever losses they had in Midway, and more, in half a year.

See this link:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

 

[unmerged(36286)]

Interesting points Bad Vlad, but I would prefer some clarifications.

*Sigh* another poster taken in by tales of Nazi supermen.

What did go lucky for Germany?

No response from Rheinland occupation?
Munich treaty?
No response to Czechoslovakia occupation?

Hitler himself said that if the Allies responded, the German soldiers would have had to retreat with their tails between their legs.

There was a ferocious debate on the Allied side whether or not to respond during these events. The peaceniks won out, that's all. Germany was lucky.

We can all agree, I hope, that Hitler had a sort of mythical hold on the German society and its social flows. Same cannot be said for France&UK.

Another ridiculous legend. There are many excellent histories on German civil life in that time that disprove this. Hitler was popular for a while, but the military establishment, the aristocracy, the reactionaries, the socialists opposed him, to name a few. Hitler's political genius was in playing off all these sectors against each other and building an independent power base in the SS. Hitler had tremendous power, to be sure, but he can hardly be said to have "a sort of mythical hold on the German society and its social flows."

Ultimately, what is more important than resources, is the governments ability to mobilize those resources for war.

Yes, and Nazi Germany was piss-poor at mobilizing resources for war. Do you realize that Speer himself said that Germany was BELOW world war I production in armaments, until 1944?

In contrast, the Allies mobilized for total war almost as soon as the war began.

As for policies to oppressed Slavic masses. Just because they were nazis didn't mean they had to have Brutal policies in occupied areas. Mind you there were Ukrainian and later Russian divisions fighting on German side. Not to mention the Bulgarian,Slovak and Croatian troops, those are slavs, yes? They were fine enough to fight along side German ubermensch.

You obviously have not read or read about Hitler's Table Talk, the Mein Kampf, Goering's Green Folder, Backe's Hunger Plan, and Rosenberg's The Myth of the 20th Century.

A brutal and exploitative policy in the East was the very essence of Nazi ideology.

If they had not ruthlessly exploited the East, they wouldn't have been Nazis, as simple as that.

Those Ukrainan, Russian divisions etc. were raised only out of sheer desperation due to utter lack of manpower and their fighting qualities were uniformly poor. By no means do these units indicate even the faintest chance that Hitler ever entertained the fantasy of a Nazi United Nations.

In Hitler's own words:

"We'll drive Asia back behind the Urals. No organised Russian state will be allowed to exist west of there.. they are brutes in a state of nature..."

"We'll let the Russian towns fall to pieces - let them know just enough to understand our highway signs, so that they won't get themselves run over by our vehicles! .. There is only duty: to Germanise this country by the immigration of Germans, and to look upon the natives as Redskins. I have no feelings about the idea of wiping out Kiev, Moscow or St. Petersburg."

"... To teach the Russians, Ukrainians, and the Kirghiz to read and write will eventually be to our own disadvantage ... all the villages need is music, music, and plenty of it .. I absolutely forbid the organisation of any sort of hygiene or cleanliness crusades in the territories... the doctors in the German colonies will be solely for the German colonists ... Dentistry, too, should remain a closed book to them ... Let's not have any native militias or police. German troops alone will maintain law an order throughout the occupied Russian territories."

"In all seriousness, however, there is a real danger that the inhabitants will increase too rapidly under our care and domination ... No inoculations or other preventative measures for the natives! .. We must even try to stifle any desire for vaccinations and the like ... the local population must be given no facilities for higher education ... notices in Ukrainian saying "Beware of the Trains" are superfluous, what on earth does it matter if one or two more locals get run over by the trains? .. Russian and Ukrainian towns are not in any circumstances to be improved or made more habitable ... Our ultimate object must be to build towns and villages exclusively for Germans and absolutely separate from Russian and Ukrainian towns."

"St. Petersburg must disappear utterly from the earth's surface. Moscow, too. Then the Russians will retreat into Siberia .. As for the ridiculous hundred million Slavs, we will mould the best of them as we see fit, and we will isolate the rest of them in their own pig-styes; and anyone who talks about cherishing the local inhabitants and civilising them, goes straight off into a concentration camp!"

 

[quaazi]

Do not dismiss any counterfactual history as "tales of Nazi supermen". You're invoking a breed of Godwin's law right here.

Besides, surely the fact how far Nazi Germany got despite all the numerous errors in judgement (not creating Russia/Ukraine, not gearing up their economy) would serve to PROVE any nazi supermen theory - essentialy showing them fighting one hand behind their back and still kicking everyone's asses, until being brought down by the Sumo wrestler that is the USSR.

We can all agree, I hope, that Hitler had a sort of mythical hold on the German society and its social flows. Same cannot be said for France&UK.

Not really. It was exactly the Anschluss and the Munich Agreement, Hitler's wildest bets, that netted him popular support. Evidence of plots against Hitler are abundant until Czechoslovakia. Many generals, most noteworthy Ludwig Beck, were very opposed to Hitler's policy and planned to remove him should he attack Czechoslovakia militarily. Yes, the UK didn't have popular support for war against Germany, but what can't a little propaganda fix?

 

[Ovg]

Sheesh, what's with all this nazi fanboism here guise?
Hitler was batshit insane and lost the war.
He wins in AoD
That's the problem methinks.

BAD SIGNS INCLUDED!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNF86jBByDg
Are we not he supermen Aryan pure supermen
Ja we are the supermen (super duper supermen)
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJfe0GTMzGQ

 

[unmerged(36286)]

surely the fact how far Nazi Germany got despite all the numerous errors in judgement (not creating Russia/Ukraine, not gearing up their economy) would serve to PROVE any nazi supermen theory - essentialy showing them fighting one hand behind their back and still kicking everyone's asses, until being brought down by the Sumo wrestler that is the USSR.

As other posters have pointed out, the Allies made even bigger blunders (not attacking during Rhineland reoccupation, Anschluss, Czech crisis or while Germany was busy with Poland; French/British Dyle plan; Stalin willfully ignoring warnings from everybody of the exact date and time of the German attack, then prohibiting retreats during Barbarossa which caused entire armies to be encircled, etc.)

So if Nazi Germany had one hand tied behind its back, the Allies had both hands tied behind their back, at least until 1942.

 

[unmerged(209792)]

As other posters have pointed out, the Allies made even bigger blunders (not attacking during Rhineland reoccupation, Anschluss, Czech crisis or while Germany was busy with Poland; French/British Dyle plan; Stalin willfully ignoring warnings from everybody of the exact date and time of the German attack, then prohibiting retreats during Barbarossa which caused entire armies to be encircled, etc.)

So if Nazi Germany had one hand tied behind its back, the Allies had both hands tied behind their back, at least until 1942.

Those were during peace, during the Sitzkrieg or immediately after being invaded, however. Not really a good comparison to almost 6 years - except for the Sitzkrieg phase - of constant war waged on land, the most significant theater.

I still believe the Axis powers could have beaten the allies - but they would have had to fight an almost perfect war from start to finish. Of course the moment their luck ran out the Allies' overwhelming superiority took over.

I disagree with the "perfect war from start to finish" part. A "perfect war" would've meant things like no Balkan troubles in 1941 (Mussolini's idiotic blundering in other words), the Japanese attacking the USSR from the east or hell, no Allied DoW over Poland at all! Or some even wilder scenarios where the UK or even Poland agrees to Hitler's proposals for an alliance during the 30s.

Anyhow, I personally believe none of those were required. Hitler came "this" close to winning WWII anyway. All he needed to do was not halt the panzers at Dunkirk, which would've probably forced the Brits to accept Hitler's peace offers, despite Churchill's ranting, as they came very close to it IRL as well - but didn't quite enough thanks to Hitler letting the BEF escape (despite having to leave their heavy equipment behind).

Even then, the RAF came very close to being totally destroyed until Hitler interfered in response to the RAF bombing Berlin, initiating Germany's own terror bombing as a response (aka the "Blitz") - which in turn relieved enough pressure from the nearly-obliterated RAF allowing them to recover and eventually win the Battle of Britain.

And most importantly the fact that he altered the Barbarossa plan, just to destroy a few million war-weary Russians/Ukrainians trapped in the Kiev pocket that didn't even pose a real threat, which decisively delayed the German thrust on Moscow - the hub of all Soviet major communications and supply routes.

There are other things that could've decided the war in the Axis' favour, such as Japan invading Russia, Finland attacking Leningrad and/or permanently cutting the Murmansk railroad line, but I think Hitler's mistakes were the direct cause for Germany's loss in WWII.

For more information: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qx75V2JJQ

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJsoNcCLLY0&feature=related <-- The compilation of mistakes start with Part 3, part one and two are just about Hitler's rise to power.

 

[quaazi]

As other posters have pointed out, the Allies made even bigger blunders (not attacking during Rhineland reoccupation, Anschluss, Czech crisis or while Germany was busy with Poland; French/British Dyle plan; Stalin willfully ignoring warnings from everybody of the exact date and time of the German attack, then prohibiting retreats during Barbarossa which caused entire armies to be encircled, etc.)

So if Nazi Germany had one hand tied behind its back, the Allies had both hands tied behind their back, at least until 1942.

Your point being? Counterfactual history assumes the change of one or more factors. In a scenario where Germany made the right moves the Allies can still make the wrong ones. I don't believe in the Nazi superman myth any more than you, but despite hindsight, it did come pretty damn close.

But Stalin being ignorant of the German attack has been proven bull since the 1950s, you know. The Red Army was more than ready for war in 1941, THEIR defeat came from the inherent weakness of the Stalinist system. If anything, Uncle Joe's shock on that summer day came from the fact Hitler made his move quicker than him. He wasn't a victim as so much propaganda would like you to believe.

 

[unmerged(209792)]

The Red Army was more than ready for war in 1941, THEIR defeat came from the inherent weakness of the Stalinist system.

Not only that, but there's tons of evidence that the USSR was preparing to invade Germany, with the attack date set a mere 2 weeks after the beginning of Barbarossa. Their forces weren't dug in into defensive positions, but right at the borders, next to roads and forests, being issued with maps of Germany and beyond (ironically, the Soviet forces at the borders had very few to no maps of Soviet territory at all), preparing to invade Europe. And that's the main reason they were so quickly destroyed. Wonder how things would've went, had Stalin been the one to attack first, instead of Hitler...

 

[Yaromir]

*Sigh* another poster taken in by tales of Nazi supermen.

I do not appreciate personal attacks. I took good care to posit my tame objections in question form as to be conducive to a civilized and joint search for truth.

 

[Murkk]

People have read some a couple books on WW2 and suddenly they are know-it-alls. Please stop because you're annoying those of us that do.

In all seriousness, the Axis lost in WW2 but if we are to make a balanced game that's fun, we'd like all sides to be able to win. To the OPs post, if Germany couldn't roll over France then o

Please stop with the Hitler fanboy comments, they sound like they come from a World of Warcraft forum. Just because you read a book saying Germany was some backwater country that got briefly lucky before the real men came doesn't make it so.

I don't believe Germany could have won after they declared war on the Soviet Union in July 1941 and US in December 1941. Even then, I will state the following which is true.

They were a superpower in the 30s. They had technological superiority over most of the world. They had industrial superiority over most of the world. If you were a scientist or engineer anywhere in the world, german and not english was the standard language. Their soldiers had superior training, morale and skill. Their war doctrines were far superior. They weren't complacent. They had better logistical organization. The political leaders were decisive and aggressive.

By contrast, in the 30s the allied nations were weak and indecisive politically, industrially and militarily. The Germans didn't beat the French and English and the SU forces from 1939-1942, they steamrolled them.

 

[quaazi]

Yes, you see, by claiming Germany to be a superpower in the 30's and the Allies economically weak (in comparison to Germany, of course), you lose all credibility on the whole subject of Modern History. But if there's anything especially retarded you said, it's

If you were a scientist or engineer anywhere in the world, german and not english was the standard language.

So the exodus of minds from nazi germany left the exiled scientists loving herr Hitler. Sure why the hell not.

Also, anyone in the past and in the future making "nazi fanboys zomg" comments should note now how much of an empty point and insulting to everyone's intelligence such claims are. Spare us the embarassment.

 

[froek]

Yes, you see, by claiming Germany to be a superpower in the 30's and the Allies economically weak (in comparison to Germany, of course), you lose all credibility on the whole subject of Modern History. But if there's anything especially retarded you said, it's So the exodus of minds from nazi germany left the exiled scientists loving herr Hitler. Sure why the hell not.

Also, anyone in the past and in the future making "nazi fanboys zomg" comments should note now how much of an empty point and insulting to everyone's intelligence such claims are. Spare us the embarassment.

But your name is still quaazi

 

[Eugenioso]

damn i love how i joined this post to say about why i disagreed with OP and we get this shit about the germans and why they lost.

if i were admin id cork this thread now. can you please get back on topic!?

 

[froek]

damn i love how i joined this post to say about why i disagreed with OP and we get this shit about the germans and why they lost.

if i were admin id cork this thread now. can you please get back on topic!?

You were off-topic too and didn't add anything to the topic.
and about -Reduce tanks speed,and give them very harsh terrain penalties
-Human wave useless as it now,do something with that
-Inf need some buff to make them alternative
-Germany has too much resources,they need a bigger shortage,and also much less IC.You cant help yourself laughing when you see Germany has almost more IC than USA or SU

Tanks are already nerfed.
Human wave is very strong if you attack non-stop and actually use the morale bonus it gives.
Inf is already good IMO.
And Germany is still a little bit OP.

 

[Balesir]

*Sigh*