There's no reason to ever build energy districts

[Jorgen_CAB]

There are many ways to explain the "no farm districts build" scenario:
The farms you see on your planet, that produce to the Empires stockpile simple are not all framing activity on a planet. The Tiles just represent the largest areas were the soil is good enough to do this very large farming districts efficiently. There are many smaller (invisible) farms out there that you could buy from.

This is actually again the realism/abstraction debate. A game (any game i played) dose not aim to model the realty as close as possible. Just to be fun to play.
I rely don't think a proper dynamic market (as in Vicy2) would work out well (as in Vicy2).

I totally understand that the market may brake your/our immersion from time to time. I just think that a dynamic market would brake the game in so many more ways, and would open up so many more exploits (which is what OP may have discovered) that it would not pay off at the very end.

I don't buy this in the slightest... The districts are suppose to represent the main type of infrastructure you have on planets on a planetary scale, you then have POP that work in them an produce a set or abstract resources.

I get that you probably have some people in each job type that do other stuff and some miners have gardens and will grow their own food or some farms even in your mining districts. But nothing that effect on the grand scale of billions of people.

We don't tax people in Stellaris, we basically act as the controller of the actual resources produced and infrastructure built. The internal market as dreamed up by Paradox is just a mechanic and really represent nothing in the background that make any realistic sense. You then have trade that just is a resource that generate energy out of nothing... it does not consume anything and are not really connected to POP other than POP give it to you for free.

Don't get me wrong... I like the new economy system overall... but it make very little realistic sense in any way.

 

[Xshu]

I hate these types of threads. They ruin the spirit and fun of the game. Of course, by careful analysis of all the numbers you can break the game. It's always possible. Of course you have to make a bunch of other concessions and it only supports basically one playstyle.

I don't think it ruins the fun and spirit of the game to RP as a civilization that makes its money by selling food. That's hardly unrealistic and game breaking.

 

[Leylos]

There is a limit too how much you are going to get out of selling food. It always runs under the assumption that someone is buying it. If you are selling more then is being bought the prices will drop to the point where it isn't as viable anymore.

 

[Verx90]

I did a run as a megacorporation (fan xenophile , civ for free trade , trait for trade value , rushed diplo for 1 for the trade value bonus : 20%+10%+10%+25% ) i didnt build a single energy district , i even replaced the starting ones by the 2250 .

Its.the build that you make with your empire , normal empire tendency its to not realy focus on energy dist , if they are not totaly unlucky in the early game for the energy in the close systems .

For the market "magic" price , it is not only based on your (player) action , but by evry single nation inside the galatic market , the AI buy from the market (they sell too , but is not registered or counted for a bug or reason) and the ai , buy alot from the market atm , since they destroy theyr economy regulary . The market price tend to go back to the starting price , but its based on all empires stockpiles and sell\buy quantity .

In my games , some times food sells for 0.20 energy , other for 4.35 . Its not a so certaim bussness , dont go great depression on your net game by stacking thousands.of worthless merchandize

 

[xMer]

It is amazing how people attempt to ignore observation of OP and attempt to put our imagination about this observation.
IT IS NOT about building empire without energy type or other types of districts.
IT IS about farmer job being superior to technician job when it come to produce energy even without any bonuses.
So... it is better to pick food boosting trait than energy boosting because farming bonus will provide you both energy and food, while energy bonus would affect only energy generation.

Problem most likely lies in some development balance changes and simply someone forgetting to adjust base food price from 1 to 0.67 to make baseline value of basic works same.
Very likely same issue happen for Alloys which didn't get their base market price adjusted to from 4 to 2.67 after base production was raised from 2 to 3.

 

[Verx90]

Problem most likely lies in some development balance changes and simply someone forgetting to adjust base food price from 1 to 0.67 to make baseline value of basic works same.
Very likely same issue happen for Alloys which didn't get their base market price adjusted to from 4 to 2.67 after base production was raised from 2 to 3.

The alloys increase its in the beta , not sure they made game balancing in a beta .

Btw starting market price for food (selling) its 0.60 , 1.20 (buying). So im not sure what you are talking about ...

 

[xMer]

Sorry for everyone insulted by explaining elementary things.
Market work on such parameters as Base Price and Market Fee
With no empire modifiers market fee is 30%.
Food have base price of 1 energy and this combined with Market Fee it result with 0.7 selling price and 1.3 buying price (your data about 0.6 and 1.2 is flawed)
0.7 = 1 * (100% - 30%)
1.3 = 1 * (100% + 30%)

Base price is also resting point for particular good. However as a lot of transactions is done current price(before fee) could vary a lot. Exact formulas on how price change are unknown afaik.

Market work properly when base price is set to relative value of energy and particular good and market fee would ensure that it won't be easy to exploit.

In this case it is disturbed by base price of food being 1 while you can produce 50% more food with same amount of districts/pops than energy/minerals.
farmers have 6 base production while miners/technician have 4.
And even 30% market fee is insufficient to cover up that issue.

Yes, alloys production ratio was changed in beta. However paradox betas are not only bugfixes but also balance changes and very likely alloy production ratio change go live.

 

[Verx90]

Sorry for everyone insulted by explaining elementary things.
Market work on such parameters as Base Price and Market Fee
With no empire modifiers market fee is 30%.
Food have base price of 1 energy and this combined with Market Fee it result with 0.7 selling price and 1.3 buying price (your data about 0.6 and 1.2 is flawed)
0.7 = 1 * (100% - 30%)
1.3 = 1 * (100% + 30%)

Base price is also resting point for particular good. However as a lot of transactions is done current price(before fee) could vary a lot. Exact formulas on how price change are unknown afaik.

Market work properly when base price is set to relative value of energy and particular good and market fee would ensure that it won't be easy to exploit.

In this case it is disturbed by base price of food being 1 while you can produce 50% more food with same amount of districts/pops than energy/minerals.
farmers have 6 base production while miners/technician have 4.
And even 30% market fee is insufficient to cover up that issue.

Yes, alloys production ratio was changed in beta. However paradox betas are not only bugfixes but also balance changes and very likely alloy production ratio change go live.

I meam by the beta thing , that they probably didnt change.the market value to see how it worked , betas are experimental version for a reason .

The market sistem its simple , if you sell alot of it, the price will go down .

I suggest not to use the montly transaction , selling 10000 food in 1 shot for 0.70 its better.than selling 200 food for a decreasing price over months .

The price will stay up if there are AI actualy buy spam it , if there is noone to buy , if you sell more than 50 food evrymonth, the price will go down .

 

[xMer]

Principles of market are indeed simple.
But doesn't say anything about border case which is discussed here. that is replacing one economic branch with other.(replacing energy production with food production)

Principles of market economy doesn't provide information how much time it would take for price to return to resting point or even what would be resting point/average bulk sale price when large volumes are sold.
ex. Empire have 2000 food production surplus monthly. can you calculate what would be average sale price if empire sell everything on market both for monthly deal and bulk sale. both for internal market and galactic market.
What if Empire can sell even more like 4-5k? Would market collapse at some point or rather price stabilize?

Ofc that prices can be measured empirically by experiments, but if anything change in market then everything would have to be measured again.

PS
Bulk transactions are also oversight and hopefully would change in future as they are exploitable.

 

[Kent_Lang]

[...] Unless you want the only participants of the market to be the galactic governments, with supply and demand determined only by the players' and AI's supply and demand. In that case, when I sell minerals, they will sit in the stockpile until a player / AI empire buys it. But can you foresee how flat that system might become? What happens when there are only two empires left in the game? The market would just be a 30% more expensive replacement for the diplomacy screen. What happens if all empires tend to sell only certain types of goods (for example, worker-produced resources) and buys only another type (say, specialist-produced goods)? The price of some goods will plummet and others will skyrocket and if the pattern persists the market will be useless as each empire turns to self-reliance, producing what they need to fill the deficit (as we did pre-2.2).

Actually I think that would be enough. The civilian side of Stellaris is actually supposed to be filled by the Megacorp empires. Also another reason why I think this is necessary is because the private sector in stellaris doesn't really exist. When you play the game, the responsibility of housing, resource production, enhancements of goods and providing services pretty much fall squarely on the player's shoulders. If you'd try to make a market with civs participating in the market you'd need to shift this responsibility to the pops and the market AI much like how you describe it's done in Victoria II. I like Vic II even though I only have a basic grasp on how Vic II works, but I'm not 100% convinced that it could work in Stellaris. Sure Vic II also has plater control or in other words government control but if you'd introduce a private sector to Stellaris I imagine a lot of players would be very displeased that they can't optimize their pops anymore and lose control over their pops.

I think it could work in Stellaris too and I'm not against the devs taking steps to reach such a goal but it'd need a very large overhaul of the system whereas my proposal only needs a couple of adjustments and is easier to implement. If we want to fix the market quicker I would think that my proposal would be the first step and yours would be the final goal of such an undertaking.

 

[Verx90]

PS
Bulk transactions are also oversight and hopefully would change in future as they are exploitable.

after 2300 the majority of the AI won't make transactions for food . even if you give 200000 they will be considerate 1 point .

 

[xMer]

Good then that we talk about galactic market transactions and not about 2-side empires deals.

 

[Orimichi]

I calculated the number of pop need to produce 1 resources and here are the result:
food : 2/7
mineral & energy : 3/7
consumer good : 6/7
alloy(beta) : 12/7

for manufactured resources i solve the equation system with the upkeep of a lvl 1 building and i use the decent condition LS.

Price on market are respctively 1,1,2,4. So it's ok for all but food, it's really strange.

I'll made it for advanced resources and upgraded building