There's no reason to ever build energy districts

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Jorgen_CAB

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I've only played as Megacorporations since this expansion came out but so far I've not built any generator districts. The only ones I've ever had were the ones pre built on my start planet and my energy income has been insane without them. In one game I had 3k a month energy credits and never built generator districts. I dont know yet if I would have to build them for regular empires.

Mega Corporations is a special case though since they have their branch offices that can provide with a pretty decent amount of alternate energy income.

Energy districts can be important at least in the early game for most other empires, depending on the market prices of certain goods. But I have found that getting some alloy foundries and selling alloys on the internal market in the early game are probably more efficient than having energy districts. So building more mining and farming districts is probably better to fuel your Alloy production.
 

Hibernus

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This post completely ignores many things... This is on a base average.... It does not take into account:

1) Natural planetary modifiers that could exist
2) Technology that boosts energy income
3) Upgraded buildings such as the one that gives energy output +15%
4) Energy Grid planetary type (I forget what its called, but ultimately it gives an extra 5-10% boost to energy income if you build mostly energy districts, and focus on energy buildings)
5) Civic and governments, and traits

Energy has more buffs than food does.

Take into account as well population traits which give energy boosts to workers, etc... (Which I'm not even sure there is a food equivelant, just a energy/minerals though I could be mistaken).


Sure you can definetly make a playstyle and empire that focuses on never using energy, boosting your mineral/food production and using the excess to sell, but that by no means makes it that energy credits is unbalanced, or useless, or even generating too little..

I could make an exact post, stacking all the energy bonus modifiers together and claim there is no point to ever make food districts.
Not only does Food get every single buff you've mentioned, it also has an additional tech over energy that further increases the yield AND a governor bonus.

You could make the exact same post stacking energy modifiers, but it wouldn't change the fact that six is a bigger number than four.
 

Retry

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I was selling around 600 food monthly and the price on the market was still stable at around 1.6 energy credit per food.



After the galactic market opened this somewhat happened. I have no real idea why. It went to a high point of 1.90, and seems to have stabilised at around 1.60.



Okay, let me explain it again simply for all of you people who don't bother reading.

Facts :
1 - A Technician produce 4 energy.
2 - A Farmer produce 6 food.

Conclusion :
Producing food and selling it is strictly better than bothering with energy districts as long as the market price stay above 0.67 energy credit per point of food. And food on the galactic market will easily sell for above 1.5 credit per food.

Agrarian Idyll is only relevant in that it benefit more from this than the other empire. Selling food is still superior than making energy "normally" for anyone.

You're very lucky in your current play-through that so many empires are buying food to keep prices high. That or you're on the beta version and that does something weird with the market. Or possibly both are in effect. This idea definitely would not have worked in my last agrarian idyll game mid-late game where the sheer volume of food being produced and sold kept the selling price consistently in the ~.14-.25 range, which would translate to 1.5 energy per farm at the most.

If you were counting on it being in the .7 range, and monthly market trade is your primary source of energy income, then it takes only one or two other people selling food monthly to seriously lower your energy income in little time: someone selling 10k food in bulk effectively instantly resets prices to the price floor of ~1.4k energy for 10k food and would easily crash your energy income and possibly leave your economy irrecoverably wrecked depending on the margins. (ex: current game has me at ~1.6k energy income from all sources vs ~1.5k energy maintenance fees, for ~+100 monthly income. If half of that income was from food trades alone, a 50% drop in selling price would leave me at -300 energy deficit.)

It'll probably work fine all right against an AI only match since none of them seem to take advantages of surpluses from stuff like food to fuel their economies, but it'd likely work much less well with human opponents who can and will take advantage of the market in a similar way as you.
 

Armed Avacado

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The only thing you need to make a realistic market is to have stockpiles on the resources that the market can hold.

I would like to see a stockpile too; in fact, I suggest the very thing in a different thread. But this what I consider yet another game mechanic that makes the market act like a real market but isn't a complete simulation. For example, who exactly is "the Market"? Who runs it, who collects that 30% market fee and where does it go? Which isn't to say I would be dissatisfied with this solution, but I would be dissatisfied with this as a simulation. See below.

A big problem though is the fact that resources can be bought and sold in bulk and this isn't taken into account when determining prices. There has to be an algorithm that can predict how purchases in the market will affect the amount that's in storage and adjust the prices accordingly.

I agree. This can and should be done.

The civilians in Stellaris only really deals with consumer goods and food so I see no reason why they should partake in the market, unless you're meaning to add actual corporations which produce resources for profit.

In case you aren't familiar with PDX's Victoria series, I'll summarize it. If you are, I'll leave a reminder. Money never disappears; it always circulates and new money only enters through gold/silver mines. All resources traded always go to a recipient, until they are consumed. Raw resources are produced in farms and mines, then sold on the market. The money earned goes to the aristocrats who own the farms/mines and the laborers employed. The raw resources are either bought by artisans or factories and converted to refined goods (also sold on the market), or are bought by pops for consumption. Any amount not bought is destroyed (and the pop loses revenue). Each pop has essential needs, day-to-day needs, and luxury needs, and the amount they can (afford to) obtain determines their happiness. The government taxes each pop's wages or profits. Middle-class pops might invest their savings in the national bank. When governments (the player) take loans, they come from the national banks. When governments default on loans, the national bank loses money and thus the pops who invested lose money, making them poorer.

TLDR every resource is produced somewhere and goes somewhere for consumption; all money goes to someone and comes from someone. So I ask again, when I sell minerals to the market, who takes the minerals besides "the Market"?

Unless you want the only participants of the market to be the galactic governments, with supply and demand determined only by the players' and AI's supply and demand. In that case, when I sell minerals, they will sit in the stockpile until a player / AI empire buys it. But can you foresee how flat that system might become? What happens when there are only two empires left in the game? The market would just be a 30% more expensive replacement for the diplomacy screen. What happens if all empires tend to sell only certain types of goods (for example, worker-produced resources) and buys only another type (say, specialist-produced goods)? The price of some goods will plummet and others will skyrocket and if the pattern persists the market will be useless as each empire turns to self-reliance, producing what they need to fill the deficit (as we did pre-2.2).
 

FlyingPhoenix

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I think it would be great if the market had finite resources, so you can only purchase resources which actually exist somewhere, rather than continually generating resources out of thin air.

I also think you shouldn't be able to generate currency without exchanging some kind of resources to obtain it.
 

Novacat

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I hate these types of threads. They ruin the spirit and fun of the game. Of course, by careful analysis of all the numbers you can break the game. It's always possible. Of course you have to make a bunch of other concessions and it only supports basically one playstyle.

On the contrary, these types of threads are great to get to the developers attention, so that they can fix it and make for a better game.
 

The Grumpy Buddha

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It doesn't even require the market if you're playing as a megacorp. In my current game I built exactly one energy district early on, and then bulldozed it a few years latter. Between trade hubs, collected trade resources and clerks my energy income was always higher than any other resource without ever needing to build another district. Right now (2480) my energy income is something like 1800/month, though 1k of that is coming from a ruined dyson sphere that I rebuilt around 2400.

That seems extremely low. I was at 2800/month with no Dyson, and I was playing extremely lazily. (More than 2800, actually, I think. And the last 30 years I did very little management, was just trying to finish off the crisis and whup the nanite jerks.)

FWIW I avoided clerks as much as possible. Literally, clerk jobs being filled meant that it was time to find a building to upgrade into specialists. They seem like a waste to me relative to the other roles.
 

xsmilingbanditx

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In regards of the market: I assume that, with the current level of abstraction, there is a "hidden" private sector that deals with resources which in return makes the market prices level out again.

At least I'd like to think of it as invisible players for RP reasons. It's a resource stock market.

Alas, it would be cool if it'd be fleshed out in the future.
 

Gratak

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Prices in 2.2.2 is too high in general which means it is great for selling stuff so having a balance economy and selling stuff is great because you don't need to produce much energy.

So no matter how you twist and turn there will be an easy way for a human player to abuse the system.

Also using monthly trade is probably very inefficient in the current version since bulk trade is far more effective. Following prices and make sure you buy low and sell high and do so in bulk is not really too hard even if you avoid the infinite resource bug.

Whenever you manage to get market fees down to around 10% it is very easy to find good trade by just trade for the sake of trading and keeping tabs on the prices.
You totally didn't get my posts. Market in 2.2.2 is broken. I said no. No argument there. 2.2.1 is also broken with regard to bulk trades. I suggested how one could fix that. Of course using that exploit is more effective, but I was talking about if one could not use the exploit because it was fixed like I suggested. Then every trade would be like the 2.2.1 long time monthly trades.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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You totally didn't get my posts. Market in 2.2.2 is broken. I said no. No argument there. 2.2.1 is also broken with regard to bulk trades. I suggested how one could fix that. Of course using that exploit is more effective, but I was talking about if one could not use the exploit because it was fixed like I suggested. Then every trade would be like the 2.2.1 long time monthly trades.

You can just set up a monthly trade of bulk of any resource and then cancel it after one buy/sell and profit real good from high or low prices anyway. It would only take a bit longer to abuse the same system in a different way. When using monthly trade you can also use much larger buy and sell orders. This means you sell the exact amount you need to tank the price and then buy a MUCH larger quantity the next month at a very low price.
 

btonasse

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You can sell a sum and then wait for the price to get back up to 0.7 per food and sell in bulk again.

This would be great if you didn't have anything else to worry about in Stellaris other than trading in the market. What if the AI also starts selling so much food and the prices plummet? What if you suddenly need to spend a lot of energy (happens quite often) and you can't "wait for the price to get back up"? You will have to sell at a loss. That's more or less how speculative bubbles happen in real life. People think they've found an endless gold mine until it burst in their face.

Honestly, the OP is just describing a very rare situation that almost no one else experiences (I've never seen food prices so high) and bashing the system as if it was exploitable. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.
 

Scuzzar

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Suggested fix : Make energy production better.

My Opinion:

I think many numbers in the update need some tweaking.

But i would not not change the output, but the prices on the market. It is obviously a problem with the market, not the production of food.

And no, i am not in for the 100% supply/demand market.

Just let the price drop lower (lets say 0.5 energies/food) , if the marked is flooded with food.
 

Orphalesion

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Even without the galactic market...
In my second game since LeGuin (still going) I have hardly even thought to use the market yet (haven't adapted to its presence yet, I guess) and by mid game I got so much energy and minerals from mining stations that I hardly had to build any districts to meet my needs and my planets were pretty much left for farming, research and alloy/consumer goods/strategic resource production.
Of course that just because I tend to expand like crazy, so I can imagine someone who expands less has a higher need of districts vs. stations.
 

Scuzzar

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The internal market is also a joke and make no sense... how can you buy food from your internal market while your people is starving. If you choose not to do so they will starve and not use what food actually is there. I just make no sense.

Well there is plenty of food on today's earth market to buy.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/wheat-price

Still people are starving in Somalia at this very moment...

Not all your pops will starve to death...
 

Jorgen_CAB

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This would be great if you didn't have anything else to worry about in Stellaris other than trading in the market. What if the AI also starts selling so much food and the prices plummet? What if you suddenly need to spend a lot of energy (happens quite often) and you can't "wait for the price to get back up"? You will have to sell at a loss. That's more or less how speculative bubbles happen in real life. People think they've found an endless gold mine until it burst in their face.

Honestly, the OP is just describing a very rare situation that almost no one else experiences (I've never seen food prices so high) and bashing the system as if it was exploitable. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.

I was talking about the internal market here if I remember correctly, so no one will ever effect the price but you. ;)
 

Jorgen_CAB

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Well there is plenty of food on today's earth market to buy.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/wheat-price

Still people are starving in Somalia at this very moment...

Not all your pops will starve to death...

But that is not really how it work in Stellaris though... you could literally have NO farms on your planets which means no food production and still buy food from the internal market to give to the people or just allow them to starve.

The games internal market is not anything, it is not connected to your internal economy.

In the real world it is all about wealth distribution and how it can be distributed. Today the vast majority of people that can't get food, clean water or clothing is because of conflicts which often prevent a healthy distribution of necessary resources not because there is a lack of them.
 
Last edited:

Gratak

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You can just set up a monthly trade of bulk of any resource and then cancel it after one buy/sell and profit real good from high or low prices anyway. It would only take a bit longer to abuse the same system in a different way. When using monthly trade you can also use much larger buy and sell orders. This means you sell the exact amount you need to tank the price and then buy a MUCH larger quantity the next month at a very low price.
Wow. You don't WANT to understand my posts, right? I said "long term montly". In what universe is cancelling after a single month long time? And I also suggested a way to fix the exploit you keep repeating without killing the market:

The only way they can fix this exploit is if they increase/decrease the per-unit price for the large buy/sell buttons. Ideally actually using their market formula to get the same price you would get if you bought/sold by clicking one of the other buy/sell buttons to get the same amount.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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Wow. You don't WANT to understand my posts, right? I said "long term montly". In what universe is cancelling after a single month long time? And I also suggested a way to fix the exploit you keep repeating without killing the market:

Yes... I understand but I still think you will be able to break it since prices on the market are not really based on supply and demand, unless that was you suggestion to not have infinite resources. Don't remember that was one of the supposed fixes.

Not sure what LONG term really means and how you will enforce it.

What happens if I set up a sell order of stuff I don't have... let's say I make a sell order of 10.000 Alloys per month in 12 months and 10.000 is all I have? If the order are cancelled then I can just set up an equally ridiculous buy order which is cancelled when I have no credits so I just tanked the market to buy even more of the resource I sold the month before.

They will have to jump through hoops to make such a still flawed system air tights from abuse.
 

Scuzzar

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But that is not really how it work in Stellaris though... you could literally have NO farms on your planets which means no food production and still buy food from the internal market to give to the people or just allow them to starve.

The games internal market is not anything, it is not connected to your internal market.

In the real world it is all about wealth distribution and how it can be distributed. Today the vast majority of people that can't get food, clean water or clothing is because of conflicts which often prevent a healthy distribution of necessary resources not because there is a lack of them.

There are many ways to explain the "no farm districts build" scenario:
The farms you see on your planet, that produce to the Empires stockpile simple are not all framing activity on a planet. The Tiles just represent the largest areas were the soil is good enough to do this very large farming districts efficiently. There are many smaller (invisible) farms out there that you could buy from. :)

This is actually again the realism/abstraction debate. A game (any game i played) dose not aim to model the realty as close as possible. Just to be fun to play.
I rely don't think a proper dynamic market (as in Vicy2) would work out well (as in Vicy2).

I totally understand that the market may brake your/our immersion from time to time. I just think that a dynamic market would brake the game in so many more ways, and would open up so many more exploits (which is what OP may have discovered) that it would not pay off at the very end.