There's no reason to ever build energy districts

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EdGreyfox

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It doesn't even require the market if you're playing as a megacorp. In my current game I built exactly one energy district early on, and then bulldozed it a few years latter. Between trade hubs, collected trade resources and clerks my energy income was always higher than any other resource without ever needing to build another district. Right now (2480) my energy income is something like 1800/month, though 1k of that is coming from a ruined dyson sphere that I rebuilt around 2400.
 

Hyomoto

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I'll sum all of this up: "I'm playing a specific way that takes advantage of a specific scenario."

Duh. That doesn't mean it's intrinsically imbalanced, that means your play style favors that specific outcome. To sum up all the points, one it requires agriculture districts. Two, it requires a combination of traits not every player will choose or even have access to. And three, it requires a profitable price of food on the market, which isn't guaranteed and, while not making this impossible, may depend on a specific situation be present. If the food market crashes, your agriculture based economy may end up alongside the manure it's built on.

There are tweaks and such that Stellaris needs, balancing and broken bits that need fixed. But just because you observed something useful to you doesn't mean it's a) the only way to play, or b) that something else is clearly broken.
 

Gratak

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How is your Food selling for 1.75? Mine always sells for the minimum(?) of 0.70 energy per 1 food.

Also, as has been said, you're running a very food focused and farm buffing set of civics. This is not nearly as efficient for any other set up than the one you are running.

After the galactic market opened this somewhat happened. I have no real idea why. It went to a high point of 1.90, and seems to have stabilised at around 1.60.
You are playing the beta, right? I think they broke something badly with the market.

In 2.1, I had normal prices for food and minerals (around 1), that went down when I sold stuff and up when I bought stuff.

In 2.2, food, minerals (and possibly consumer goods, don't know since I played hive mind) get extremely high prices. No idea where they come from. I never see them rise (neither within a month, nor at start of month), but whenever I play for some time and go back, they way too high again...

They tried to fix something because people got the obvious idea to buy/sell big magnitudes at a time and profit from the prices not being updated within the transaction.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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You are playing the beta, right? I think they broke something badly with the market.

In 2.1, I had normal prices for food and minerals (around 1), that went down when I sold stuff and up when I bought stuff.

In 2.2, food, minerals (and possibly consumer goods, don't know since I played hive mind) get extremely high prices. No idea where they come from. I never see them rise (neither within a month, nor at start of month), but whenever I play for some time and go back, they way too high again...

They tried to fix something because people got the obvious idea to buy/sell big magnitudes at a time and profit from the prices not being updated within the transaction.

The funny thing is they did not even fix the abuse just introduce new inconsistencies in the system... ;)
 

Gratak

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The funny thing is they did not even fix the abuse just introduce new inconsistencies in the system... ;)
I know... Though I think you get less out of the exploit... Meaning to have to click more often :p

The only way they can fix this exploit is if they increase/decrease the per-unit price for the large buy/sell buttons. Ideally actually using their market formula to get the same price you would get if you bought/sold by clicking one of the other buy/sell buttons to get the same amount.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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I know... Though I think you get less out of the exploit... Meaning to have to click more often :p

The only way they can fix this exploit is if they increase/decrease the per-unit price for the large buy/sell buttons. Ideally actually using their market formula to get the same price you would get if you bought/sold by clicking one of the other buy/sell buttons to get the same amount.

That would fix the more immediate exploit but not the system as a whole.

The whole notion of prices automatically settle on a normalized prize based on nothing but what the base production numbers say or the fact that resources are unlimited will continue to be exploitable. These problems will remain.

This mechanic can also feel to the player as if he is playing against the system and not the game environment.
 

Gratak

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That would fix the more immediate exploit but not the system as a whole.

The whole notion of prices automatically settle on a normalized prize based on nothing but what the base production numbers say or the fact that resources are unlimited will continue to be exploitable. These problems will remain.

This mechanic can also feel to the player as if he is playing against the system and not the game environment.
While I won't say that the system is optimal, I tend to disagree. The 2.2.1 system when only using long time monthly trades seems pretty hard to exploit to me. If anything, it is a bit too punishing if you try to rely on it strongly.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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While I won't say that the system is optimal, I tend to disagree. The 2.2.1 system when only using long time monthly trades seems pretty hard to exploit to me. If anything, it is a bit too punishing if you try to rely on it strongly.

Prices in 2.2.2 is too high in general which means it is great for selling stuff so having a balance economy and selling stuff is great because you don't need to produce much energy.

So no matter how you twist and turn there will be an easy way for a human player to abuse the system.

Also using monthly trade is probably very inefficient in the current version since bulk trade is far more effective. Following prices and make sure you buy low and sell high and do so in bulk is not really too hard even if you avoid the infinite resource bug.

Whenever you manage to get market fees down to around 10% it is very easy to find good trade by just trade for the sake of trading and keeping tabs on the prices.
 

TheLastHamster

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A point that a lot of people seem to miss is that market prices aren't just affected by your transactions, but the transactions of every empire in the game. An AI empire selling minerals (for example) will lower the selling AND buying price of minerals for every other empire in the game, including the player, and vice versa for buying. This means that the price points of the various goods on the market is unique to every playthrough, emerging from how much of which resources are produced by all empires, AI and player. What OP is pointing out is evidence that it would be smart in OP's individual playthrough to produce food over energy, not of a fundamental imbalance. In my first playthrough the price of both minerals and food rested around 0.7 per unit. In my current playthrough both sit around 1.5-2 per unit.

Even if there was a fundamental imbalance that made building generator districts less efficient than generating more trade value or producing other resources for sale on the market, I don't think that necessarily means generator districts need a buff. Whereas trade value can be stolen by pirates and selling on the market leaves you vulnerable to price changes, energy from generator districts is 100% secure (unless the planet is lost) and the jobs can be worked by any pop in the game except pre-sapients, so imo it would be fair if making EC through generator districts was a bit less efficient than alternatives.

That would fix the more immediate exploit but not the system as a whole.

The whole notion of prices automatically settle on a normalized prize based on nothing but what the base production numbers say or the fact that resources are unlimited will continue to be exploitable. These problems will remain.

This mechanic can also feel to the player as if he is playing against the system and not the game environment.

The infinite credits market exploit is already fixed. The other 'exploit' you complain about (stockpiling resources to repeatedly sell at baseline rate) doesn't really seem to me like an issue to be solved, as it carries its own risks and inefficiencies. This technique requires you to stockpile credits that could otherwise be benefiting your empire between market dumps. In addition, you're basically gambling that prices will go back up, which isn't guaranteed on the galactic market if an AI empire decides to sell off its own stockpile. Furthermore, artificially restricting resource flows to the market in order to inflate prices is a very real economic phenomenon (OPEC, anyone?), so I see it's existence in Stellaris as an argument in favor of the current model, not against it.

I also don't see anything wrong with the basic concept of having a 'baseline price.' It functions as a stand-in for the equilibrium price that would arise from the supply and demand generated by all the non-empire economic actors (individuals, companies, etc.) that exist in the universe of stellaris but aren't modeled by in-game mechanics. Implementing a system where movement of each individual good from empire to empire also strikes me as a bad idea, both because performance already struggles with the much-simpler system, and because Vicky II is proof that economic modeling and the sort of economic mechanics that make a game a game and not a budget simulator don't mesh well in the long term. I love Vicky II, but go play a Vicky II game past 1900 and tell me how much fun you had dealing with the late game economic crisis.
 

Armed Avacado

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Everyone who's calling for a realistic market should realize that an adequate level of realism requires some sort of civilian entity also trading on the market. This means the private sector will need to be coded in to the background. In other words, it would take nothing less than Victoria 2 in space...

...which doesn't work, because of the vast diversity of government forms and ethics. We can't assume every empire has a mercantile middle-class of some sort. What's the civilian side of a Gestalt Consciousness? Or Pacificist-Authoritarian society where the government essentially owns the whole empire?

Back on topic, the best Stellaris can do, as a top-down game, is introduce new game mechanics, which will feel gamey, but will make the final result of the simulation act as close as possible to how the real things acts.

Unless we can get Victoria in space... because I wouldn't mind having that...
 

Jorgen_CAB

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i came in here expecting to see someone sayinbg you can use only clerks (it's what I do), but got this instead. weird...

Yes... clerks is certainly very powerful... especially from mid game and forward.

They provide all the energy and consumer good you will ever need for an advanced society, especially if you have a high stability empire with lot's of trade modifiers. But they do require more population and raw basic food production are still useful and certainly miners are needed in as many as you can get your hands on.

Technicians seems to be the easiest to replace with something else and I would choose clerks any day of the week later on, especially on rural planets since city districts and clerks will unlock more specialist buildings than keeping my planets with too many basic resource districts.

In the mid game I tend to trim off as many generator districts as I can and replace them with city districts which gets me clerks and more specialists., at least to get all rural/mining/farming worlds to 75 POP. Of course all basic work is done by robots which helps with housing to get the 75 POP baseline as soon as possible. I don't need these worlds to have more than around 75 POP... after that they can just be used to grow POP for other planets.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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A point that a lot of people seem to miss is that market prices aren't just affected by your transactions, but the transactions of every empire in the game. An AI empire selling minerals (for example) will lower the selling AND buying price of minerals for every other empire in the game, including the player, and vice versa for buying. This means that the price points of the various goods on the market is unique to every playthrough, emerging from how much of which resources are produced by all empires, AI and player. What OP is pointing out is evidence that it would be smart in OP's individual playthrough to produce food over energy, not of a fundamental imbalance. In my first playthrough the price of both minerals and food rested around 0.7 per unit. In my current playthrough both sit around 1.5-2 per unit.

Even if there was a fundamental imbalance that made building generator districts less efficient than generating more trade value or producing other resources for sale on the market, I don't think that necessarily means generator districts need a buff. Whereas trade value can be stolen by pirates and selling on the market leaves you vulnerable to price changes, energy from generator districts is 100% secure (unless the planet is lost) and the jobs can be worked by any pop in the game except pre-sapients, so imo it would be fair if making EC through generator districts was a bit less efficient than alternatives.



The infinite credits market exploit is already fixed. The other 'exploit' you complain about (stockpiling resources to repeatedly sell at baseline rate) doesn't really seem to me like an issue to be solved, as it carries its own risks and inefficiencies. This technique requires you to stockpile credits that could otherwise be benefiting your empire between market dumps. In addition, you're basically gambling that prices will go back up, which isn't guaranteed on the galactic market if an AI empire decides to sell off its own stockpile. Furthermore, artificially restricting resource flows to the market in order to inflate prices is a very real economic phenomenon (OPEC, anyone?), so I see it's existence in Stellaris as an argument in favor of the current model, not against it.

I also don't see anything wrong with the basic concept of having a 'baseline price.' It functions as a stand-in for the equilibrium price that would arise from the supply and demand generated by all the non-empire economic actors (individuals, companies, etc.) that exist in the universe of stellaris but aren't modeled by in-game mechanics. Implementing a system where movement of each individual good from empire to empire also strikes me as a bad idea, both because performance already struggles with the much-simpler system, and because Vicky II is proof that economic modeling and the sort of economic mechanics that make a game a game and not a budget simulator don't mesh well in the long term. I love Vicky II, but go play a Vicky II game past 1900 and tell me how much fun you had dealing with the late game economic crisis.


The infinite resource exploit is NOT fixed... I can do that in 2.2.2 beta patch... ;) ...this patch also introduced another bug that make most stuff on the market very expensive as a result of that "fix" as they called it.
 

TheLastHamster

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The infinite resource exploit is NOT fixed... I can do that in 2.2.2 beta patch... ;) ...this patch also introduced another bug that make most stuff on the market very expensive as a result of that "fix" as they called it.

* Made tweaks to Galactic Market that should prevent an infinite profits exploit from flooding the market, then rebuying, you shameless tophat-wearing capitalist exploiters, you

^^ directly from the patch notes.

If you can still do this, you should submit a bug report. But lots of others have reported it fixed. If the 'exploit' you're talking about is selling in bulk, then waiting for the price to recover, then selling in bulk again, I already explained why I don't think that's actually an exploit.

The 'bug' causing prices on the market to be higher is AI empires now actually buying stuff from the market, which they didn't actually do much in 2.2
 

Jorgen_CAB

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Everyone who's calling for a realistic market should realize that an adequate level of realism requires some sort of civilian entity also trading on the market. This means the private sector will need to be coded in to the background. In other words, it would take nothing less than Victoria 2 in space...

...which doesn't work, because of the vast diversity of government forms and ethics. We can't assume every empire has a mercantile middle-class of some sort. What's the civilian side of a Gestalt Consciousness? Or Pacificist-Authoritarian society where the government essentially owns the whole empire?

Back on topic, the best Stellaris can do, as a top-down game, is introduce new game mechanics, which will feel gamey, but will make the final result of the simulation act as close as possible to how the real things acts.

Unless we can get Victoria in space... because I wouldn't mind having that...

I agree... but I would like to have that space Victoria 3. It would be interesting to see how these different economies would interact with each other. How long could an agrarian state owned empire be able to compete with a ruthless capitalist merchants faction with a free market system on the open market?!?

The lack of an internal market if the gestalt consciousness might quickly become both a strength but also a big weakness if the market don't go their way. The open market societies would be much more flexible I guess because their economies and industries would be able to quickly adapt to market changes.

The raw producers would likely become the space Africa of the Earth would be my guess under such a system ;)
 

Jorgen_CAB

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* Made tweaks to Galactic Market that should prevent an infinite profits exploit from flooding the market, then rebuying, you shameless tophat-wearing capitalist exploiters, you

^^ directly from the patch notes.

If you can still do this, you should submit a bug report. But lots of others have reported it fixed. If the 'exploit' you're talking about is selling in bulk, then waiting for the price to recover, then selling in bulk again, I already explained why I don't think that's actually an exploit.

The 'bug' causing prices on the market to be higher is AI empires now actually buying stuff from the market, which they didn't actually do much in 2.2

I have submitted a bug report... did that some 30min after the patch was released... ;) ...was the first thing I tested.

You now need to sell in bulk twice.... then you can buy/sell/buy and get infinite resources.

The bug they introduce instead was unreasonably high prices that refuse to go down properly with low volume buy and sell orders such as the AI does. Only the players make huge sell/buy orders or so I guess.
 

Riftwalker

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Yes... clerks is certainly very powerful... especially from mid game and forward.

They provide all the energy and consumer good you will ever need for an advanced society, especially if you have a high stability empire with lot's of trade modifiers. But they do require more population and raw basic food production are still useful and certainly miners are needed in as many as you can get your hands on.

Technicians seems to be the easiest to replace with something else and I would choose clerks any day of the week later on, especially on rural planets since city districts and clerks will unlock more specialist buildings than keeping my planets with too many basic resource districts.

In the mid game I tend to trim off as many generator districts as I can and replace them with city districts which gets me clerks and more specialists., at least to get all rural/mining/farming worlds to 75 POP. Of course all basic work is done by robots which helps with housing to get the 75 POP baseline as soon as possible. I don't need these worlds to have more than around 75 POP... after that they can just be used to grow POP for other planets.

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clerks are surreal... I feel like i'm powering my nation's homes with pure organization. It's like i'm using Feng Shui to power my empire courtesy of untold billions of clerks.
 

Kent_Lang

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Everyone who's calling for a realistic market should realize that an adequate level of realism requires some sort of civilian entity also trading on the market. This means the private sector will need to be coded in to the background. In other words, it would take nothing less than Victoria 2 in space...

...which doesn't work, because of the vast diversity of government forms and ethics. We can't assume every empire has a mercantile middle-class of some sort. What's the civilian side of a Gestalt Consciousness? Or Pacificist-Authoritarian society where the government essentially owns the whole empire?

Back on topic, the best Stellaris can do, as a top-down game, is introduce new game mechanics, which will feel gamey, but will make the final result of the simulation act as close as possible to how the real things acts.

Unless we can get Victoria in space... because I wouldn't mind having that...
Not really. The only thing you need to make a realistic market is to have stockpiles on the resources that the market can hold. Meaning that you can completely drain the galactic market or cap it off because if you overproduce a resource, eventually you're going to completely saturate the market and fail to find customers. You can try this in real life; try to find a customer for dirt. Preferably the market should also see its resource have a resting point. The value of the resource simply has to be a factor of the amount that exists in storage, meaning that if you're trying to buy the last bit of minerals on the market, you're going to have to pay a real premium for it and when it's gone - it's gone and the market will pump up the purchasing price of the resources they lack.

A big problem though is the fact that resources can be bought and sold in bulk and this isn't taken into account when determining prices. There has to be an algorithm that can predict how purchases in the market will affect the amount that's in storage and adjust the prices accordingly.

The civilians in Stellaris only really deals with consumer goods and food so I see no reason why they should partake in the market, unless you're meaning to add actual corporations which produce resources for profit.
 

Mezlabor

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I've only played as Megacorporations since this expansion came out but so far I've not built any generator districts. The only ones I've ever had were the ones pre built on my start planet and my energy income has been insane without them. In one game I had 3k a month energy credits and never built generator districts. I dont know yet if I would have to build them for regular empires.
 

LeonOfOddecca

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Fact is that the market is bogus as a mechanic and simply don't work.

Second thing is that energy and credits should be a separate thing in the game.

If the market was a real supply and demand market and energy and credits was separate entities this whole discussion would be moot since supply and demand would sort it self out automatically.

The other problem is location, you can swap one resource in one end of the galaxy with another at the other end with NO efficiency loss, this make a real trading system moot. I can just produce one resource really effectively and then convert that magically on the market to any other resources I want.

As long as Paradox insist on a market that make no sense we will have these inconsistencies in the game. Resources on the market are completely artificial and infinite which make prices distorted and disconnected from the game production system, this will always produce distortion in things and make it possible to convert one resource for another even of some rare resources does not really exist or actually should by at a very low supply.

I hope Paradox go back to the drawing board with the market and make it actually a real market.

The internal market is also a joke and make no sense... how can you buy food from your internal market while your people is starving. If you choose not to do so they will starve and not use what food actually is there. I just make no sense. They say the internal market is the civilian market when the game really don't work like that, there are no civilian market. The empire supply all the food and consumer goods for the people not the civilian market. exactly what is and does the civilian economy do in the game?!?

Any way... the market is borked and will continue to be so as long as it is just a make believe system to buy resources that never existed... kind of how money is printed in real life just this is real tangible physical things used to create stuff, magical stuff. MANA?!?

Unfortunately I completely agree with this. The in-game market mechanic is messed up in its foundations. My current feeling is that Paradox should've either tried to simulate a real demand / supply market, or not attempted this at all. The only way to simulate a real market is to have scarcity, which there currently is not.

As it stands, I don't think that Paradox will even attempt to change the market in any significant way. It's not a small undertaking. They'll just apply band-aid solutions that create as many problems as they solve until everyone gets bored of talking about the issue. (This isn't a slight on Paradox. It's just a very complex problem).